There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

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ralphinal said:
It was the whole mistress thing that clued you in…that and the son born out of wedlock…

😛 😃 😉 👍
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LOL!!! Did he have to go to confession, or could he confess directly to God since he had the sacrament of divine orders?
 
Reformed said:
Your understanding of Scripture is driven by the Magestrium.
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This is an unfair statement.
I’m here to vet and understand.

I’ve shown that I’m willing to discuss scripture, not with a cut-and-paste from a Vatican document.

You show that you are unwilling to discuss scripture.
You don’t actually answer questions.
Instead you divert and cut/paste something you have from a tract.

There are SEVERAL questions I’ve asked of you SEVERAL times. You are unwilling or unable to answer these.

These are not even deep, theological questions, but very on-the-surface questions regarding scripture.

You accuse us of cherry-picking a verse and not looking at all scripture to understand that verse. However, this is exactly what I see from you.

Examples.
You stated that only God had the power to forgive sins.
Did Jesus give power to men?
Did Jesus give the power to forgive sins to men?
If yes, does your church recognize/practice this?

You stated that everyone (including Mary) has sinned.
The sin of Adam is inherited, not committed by us.
Has a baby sinned?
Has someone that is mentally challenged sinned?

I would like the answers to at least the first set because this very much guides the discussion regarding grace, justification, salvation, free will, and your inclusiveness of all scripture to understand a topic.

Before pasting any more scripture, please answer these questions.

michel
 
Reformed said:
LOL!!! Did he have to go to confession, or could he confess directly to God since he had the sacrament of divine orders?
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Priests aren’t aloud to confess to themselves. We can’t forgive our own sins like Protestants can.😉
 
East_and_West said:
My excuse? Well, protestanism is just biblical. Sola Scriptura is not in the scriptures. 😃
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I have to finally agree with you my friend! Protestantism is just biblical. If that’s true, why are you still Roman Catholic?
 
Reformed said:
That’s what happens if by the providence of God if you were born prior to the Protestant Reformation. Augustine had a good excuse for not being Protestant. He would have led the charge of the Reformation.
…
…
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Perhaps Augustine would have been instrumental in heading off the Reformation had he been alive at the time. Unfortunately, this could simply be wishful thinking since much of his writings were seemingly ignored or misunderstood by the Reformers. Again, it all comes down to interpretation.
 
Reformed said:
LOL!!! Did he have to go to confession, or could he confess directly to God since he had the sacrament of divine orders?
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Deacons, priests, and bishops go to confession.
We can all go directly to God. Do not however ignore what Christ empowered/directed men to do.
Jesus defined the normative way to be absolved of sin.
To ignore the sacrament of confession is to very directly ignore Jesus.

michel
 
Reformed said:
The morals of the popes? Check out Pope Leo X and his morals, you know the one who called Luther the pig (wild boar).
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Infallible cocerning their TEACHINGS on faith and morals. Not their personal piety or morality. And yes, Luther is a bore. We should not build our theologies from obssessive compulsive schizophrenics.
 
Reformed said:
The morals of the popes? Check out Pope Leo X and his morals, you know the one who called Luther the pig (wild boar).
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Don’t confuse infallible with impeccable.
That’s 101.
So we can fix your misunderstanding with education.

Catholics do not claim in any way that the pope is guaranteed to be impeccable.
You rail against our claim of the pope having infallibility, but you don’t actually know what that means.
It’s a very narrow, specific, situational case in which he practices that infallibility.

Now that you know you had a misunderstanding, are you interested in what the Catholic Church actually means in this regard, or you content to continue in your misunderstanding?

michel
 
East_and_West said:
Infallible cocerning their TEACHINGS on faith and morals. Not their personal piety or morality. And yes, Luther is a bore. We should not build our theologies from obssessive compulsive schizophrenics.
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Consider the Scriptures in regards to your statement above: It sure does not conform to the powerful and rich popes throughout the history of the world. It almost seems to fit Luther better… to the praise of His glorious grace. How does your view of ex-cathedra fit with “you will know them by their fruits”.

1 Cor 1

Christ the Wisdom and Power of God

18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written,

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”

20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, [2] not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being [3] might boast in the presence of God. 30 And because of him [4] you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”
 
Reformed said:
Consider the Scriptures in regards to your statement above:

1 Cor 1

Christ the Wisdom and Power of God
18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written,

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”

20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, [2] not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being [3] might boast in the presence of God. 30 And because of him [4] you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”
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So you are asserting that Martin Luther was mentally unhealthy in order to support your position? Wow. Protestantism is a house built on sand.
 
cazayoux said:
Don’t confuse infallible with impeccable.
That’s 101.
So we can fix your misunderstanding with education.

Catholics do not claim in any way that the pope is guaranteed to be impeccable.
You rail against our claim of the pope having infallibility, but you don’t actually know what that means.
It’s a very narrow, specific, situational case in which he practices that infallibility.

Now that you know you had a misunderstanding, are you interested in what the Catholic Church actually means in this regard, or you content to continue in your misunderstanding?

michel
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I’ll add that (Thanks to the protection of the Holy Spirit) none of these immoral men actually tried to make infallible statements.

michel
 
East_and_West said:
So you are asserting that Martin Luther was mentally unhealthy in order to support your position? Wow. Protestantism is a house built on sand.
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So, are you saying that an ungodly immoral man can be the vicar of Christ in your faith?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Leo_X

Did you read about him, the vicar of Christ at the time of the Protestant Reformation? God has always had his remnant chosen by grace throughout redemptive history.

So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. - Rom 11
 
Reformed: I see you responding to other posts. Looks like you missed mine again. Please respond.

michel
Originally Posted by **Reformed **
Your understanding of Scripture is driven by the Magestrium.
This is an unfair statement.
I’m here to vet and understand.

I’ve shown that I’m willing to discuss scripture, not with a cut-and-paste from a Vatican document.

You show that you are unwilling to discuss scripture.
You don’t actually answer questions.
Instead you divert and cut/paste something you have from a tract.

There are SEVERAL questions I’ve asked of you SEVERAL times. You are unwilling or unable to answer these.

These are not even deep, theological questions, but very on-the-surface questions regarding scripture.

You accuse us of cherry-picking a verse and not looking at all scripture to understand that verse. However, this is exactly what I see from you.

Examples.
You stated that only God had the power to forgive sins.
Did Jesus give power to men?
Did Jesus give the power to forgive sins to men?
If yes, does your church recognize/practice this?

You stated that everyone (including Mary) has sinned.
The sin of Adam is inherited, not committed by us.
Has a baby sinned?
Has someone that is mentally challenged sinned?

I would like the answers to at least the first set because this very much guides the discussion regarding grace, justification, salvation, free will, and your inclusiveness of all scripture to understand a topic.

Before pasting any more scripture, please answer these questions.

michel
 
East_and_West said:
Augustine submitted to the authority of the Church, believed Mary was sinless, believed in the REAL (not consubstantial) presences of Christ, was a bishop, believed in Apostolic succesion, etc, etc etc. He most certainly was not a Lutheran. Come now.
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Luther did believe in Mary’s sinlessness, Luther did not hold to consubstantiation…so, yes, Augustine was a Lutheran

😛
 
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