There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

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Reformed said:
Oh okay, so Pope Leo X didn’t make an infallible statement but just tried to burn all the Protestors at the stake.
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YES!!!

We do not claim impeccability for the pope.
It is VERY unfortunate that we’ve had some of these bad, bad examples.
This is an issue for discussion, but is not a proof against our claim of infallibility of the pope when teaching on faith and morals from the chair.

michel
 
East_and_West said:
Priests aren’t aloud to confess to themselves. We can’t forgive our own sins like Protestants can.😉
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Truly informed Protestants KNOW their sins ARE forgiven:Acts 10:43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Acts 13:38 "Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,

Acts 26:18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.’

Col 1:14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."They don’t seek it, they rejoice in it. That’s true faith. That’s a Biblically based faith. It’s faith in God’s Word concerning the Person and work of the Son.
 
cazayoux said:
Reformed: I see you responding to other posts. Looks like you missed mine again. Please respond.

michel
Originally Posted by **Reformed **
Your understanding of Scripture is driven by the Magestrium.
This is an unfair statement.
I’m here to vet and understand.

I’ve shown that I’m willing to discuss scripture, not with a cut-and-paste from a Vatican document.

You show that you are unwilling to discuss scripture.
You don’t actually answer questions.
Instead you divert and cut/paste something you have from a tract.

There are SEVERAL questions I’ve asked of you SEVERAL times. You are unwilling or unable to answer these.

These are not even deep, theological questions, but very on-the-surface questions regarding scripture.

You accuse us of cherry-picking a verse and not looking at all scripture to understand that verse. However, this is exactly what I see from you.

Examples.
You stated that only God had the power to forgive sins.
Did Jesus give power to men?
Did Jesus give the power to forgive sins to men?
If yes, does your church recognize/practice this?

You stated that everyone (including Mary) has sinned.
The sin of Adam is inherited, not committed by us.
Has a baby sinned?
Has someone that is mentally challenged sinned?

I would like the answers to at least the first set because this very much guides the discussion regarding grace, justification, salvation, free will, and your inclusiveness of all scripture to understand a topic.

Before pasting any more scripture, please answer these questions.

michel
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Please post one more time the questions that you seem you need for me to answer, okay? I’m not using a tract, but trying to go off memory with Scriptures that come to mind.
 
cazayoux said:
Deacons, priests, and bishops go to confession.
We can all go directly to God. Do not however ignore what Christ empowered/directed men to do.
Jesus defined the normative way to be absolved of sin.
To ignore the sacrament of confession is to very directly ignore Jesus.

michel
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To ignore the truth that your sins are forgiven through faith in Christ alone is to ignore the cross.
 
moondweller said:
Truly informed Protestants KNOW their sins ARE forgiven:Acts 10:43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Acts 13:38 "Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,

Acts 26:18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.’

Col 1:14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."They don’t seek it, they rejoice in it. That’s true faith. That’s a Biblically based faith. It’s faith in God’s Word concerning the Person and work of the Son.
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Exactly the discussion I’m trying to have with Reformed.

Acts 13:38 says ‘through Him’.
But HOW?

John 20:21-23
[21] Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.”
[22] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
[23] If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

He gives men the power to forgive sins?
(Not by their own power, but by His given)

michel
 
moondweller said:
To ignore the truth that your sins are forgiven through faith in Christ alone is to ignore the cross.
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EXACTLY !!
The sins are forgiven THROUGH Christ!!
This is in line with Catholic teaching and with John 20:21-23.

michel
 
Reformed said:
Please post one more time the questions that you seem you need for me to answer, okay?
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You stated that only God had the power to forgive sins.
Did Jesus give power to men?
Did Jesus give the power to forgive sins to men?
If yes, does your church recognize/practice this?

You stated that everyone (including Mary) has sinned.
The sin of Adam is inherited, not committed by us.
Has a baby sinned?
Has someone that is mentally challenged sinned?

michel
 
cazayoux said:
You stated that only God had the power to forgive sins.
Did Jesus give power to men?
Did Jesus give the power to forgive sins to men?
If yes, does your church recognize/practice this?

You stated that everyone (including Mary) has sinned.
The sin of Adam is inherited, not committed by us.
Has a baby sinned?
Has someone that is mentally challenged sinned?

michel
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I think we are all given the minstry of reconcilation through sharing and proclaiming the gospel of grace to whomever will listen. This is how we participate (2 Cor 5). This gospel is power (Rom 1:16-17), so through preaching of the gospel we point people to the saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ (rom 10). The churches that I have attended and now attend will be like minded to what I have posted above. I believe babies have sinned in Adam which sends all humanity to Hell apart from regeneration. I believe elect infants are washed by the blood of Christ and are saved when they die in infancy. The mentally challenged are sinners too. Consider 1 Cor 1…because our intelligence has no bearing in our ablity to hear and undestand the gospel in an effectual way. We are all born spirituality dead, requiring a new birth incluidng infants and mentally handicapped sinners. Does God save infants and the mentally handicapped… the answer is a big YES…to the praise of His glorious grace. I hope I answered your questions.

The Ministry of Reconciliation

11 Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade others. But what we are is known to God, and I hope it is known also to your conscience. 12 We are not commending ourselves to you again but giving you cause to boast about us, so that you may be able to answer those who boast about outward appearance and not about what is in the heart. 13 For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. 14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; 15 and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

16 From now on, therefore, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. [2] The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling [3] the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 2 Cor 5
 
moondweller said:
To ignore the truth that your sins are forgiven through faith in Christ alone is to ignore the cross.
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True, but to claim that this is all there is and that it is not necessary to confess your sins is to ignore the rest of the gospel and the cross, as well as the constant teaching of the Church.
 
Pax said:
True, but to claim that this is all there is and that it is not necessary to confess your sins is to ignore the rest of the gospel and the cross, as well as the constant teaching of the Church.
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Hearty amen to that one. Though we come from different traditions; confessions, as well as Holy Absolution is biblical, and apostolic; and it does remit sins.
 
sandusky said:
Where?

Perhaps the innovation belongs to the early church?

What of the girls?

Where in Scripture is this illustrated?

What if the infant doesn’t want to be born again? Where’s your insistence on free will choice? Doesn’t that make the infant a “robot?”

Purely emotional appeal based upon your “feelings.”
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East and West:
I promise to answer all of your questions when i get home form work.
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:coffeeread:
 
Reformed said:
I think we are all given the minstry of reconcilation through sharing and proclaiming the gospel of grace to whomever will listen. This is how we participate (2 Cor 5). This gospel is power (Rom 1:16-17), so through preaching of the gospel we point people to the saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ (rom 10). The churches that I have attended and now attend will be like minded to what I have posted above.
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I’m surprise that, since it is your view that we are either of the elect or not, you would even see the need for any individual’s reconciliation … either in the general sense you mention above or the very specific power Jesus gave to the apostles.

The gospel is power … including John 20:21-23.

In this verse, Jesus is not using the general language you use above.

Would you say that YOU have the power to forgive sins of another?
Would you say that the apostles did?

michel
 
Reformed said:
I believe babies have sinned in Adam which sends all humanity to Hell apart from regeneration. I believe elect infants are washed by the blood of Christ and are saved when they die in infancy. The mentally challenged are sinners too. Consider 1 Cor 1…because our intelligence has no bearing in our ablity to hear and undestand the gospel in an effectual way. We are all born spirituality dead, requiring a new birth incluidng infants and mentally handicapped sinners. Does God save infants and the mentally handicapped… the answer is a big YES…to the praise of His glorious grace. I hope I answered your questions.
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I didn’t commit Adam’s sin, Adam did.
Since I am ‘in’ Adam, I *inherit *that sin … even though I am not the one who committed it.

Original sin is inherited, not committed.
A baby does not commit sin.
Sin is always in the intention.

You say a baby cannot be baptized, but has committed sin.
This is an inconsistency.
If you think a baby is capable of sin, then all the more reason they need baptism.

A person without even the basic understanding of right and wrong that a child has, is not culpable for their actions.
I don’t really believe that you think God faults these individuals, either.
‘because our intelligence has no bearing in our ability to hear and understand the gospel in an effectual way.’
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Do you really believe this?
I have family affected, and with the Knights of Columbus have worked with Special Olympics.
I know people, fantastically happy individuals, that do not have the ability to hear and understand the gospel in an effectual way.
They know family, they know love, they know happiness.

This may not be perfect theology … but I have thinking that goes along these lines…
I see it that we are given graces by God throughout our lives. We lose some of that grace when we sin.
These special people get those same graces … however, do not lose that grace like we do because they are *not *culpable.
They keep *all *graces that God ever gives them.
They will be in heaven.
So why are they here?
It’s obviously not for their own salvation.
It must be for somebody else’s.
The purpose of their lives has to do with other people.

It’s the same for all of us.
We are not here for ourselves, but for each other.

If you see someone that is ‘special’ make sure you give them all the love and respect you can, knowing *that *someone is full of God given grace.

michel
 
cazayoux said:
Exactly the discussion I’m trying to have with Reformed.

Acts 13:38 says ‘through Him’.
But HOW?

John 20:21-23
[21] Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.”
[22] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
[23] If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

He gives men the power to forgive sins?
(Not by their own power, but by His given)

michel
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The verse states absolutely NOTHING about confessing sins to them. That concept is read into it.

Can you show me examples where the Apostles went around hearing the sins of Christians and subsequently forgave them their sins or retained them?

Let me post this again:Acts 10:43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."Nope. Doesn’t say everyone who confesses his sins, but everyone who “believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Doesn’t at all look like the Apostolic message was, come to me, confess your sins and BE forgiven, but rather BELIEVE in Him and your sins ARE forgiven. They proclaimed Christ not themselves.

In reading church history it looks to me like men began to distort this Apostolic message of Christ quite early.

Upon your history of confession, how many of your sins has your confessor retained? And for what reason? If so, does he not have the power to send you to hell? And if he retained a venial sin does he not have the power to keep you in purgatory forever? Only he would have the power to release you.
 
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