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TK421
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The Catholic Church is pre-denominational.Church is just all believers.
- Not my mindset. How would you respond?
I might play devil’s advocate here for apologetic purposes.
Peace.
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There shouldn't be things like denominations such as catholic and baptist. It should just be Christian
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Peace.
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Genesis315
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Christ founded one Church. Not everyone who claims to be a Christian is a member of it. The word “Catholic” was used in the early Church to refer to the Church spread throughout the world, whereas the local Church–what we tend to call a diocese–was named by its locale (e.g. Church of Corinth, Church of Ephesus, Church of Rome, etc.). However, as heretical and schismatic groups were founded, they were considered not part of this Church spread throughout the world. As such, the word “Catholic” also came to mean the true Church, as opposed to those who had separated.
As for the Bible, it says we must be baptized (John 3:3) into the one Body in the one Spirit (1 Cor. 12:13), partake of the one bread as one Body (1 Cor. 10:17), and profess the One Lord, one faith, one Baptism (Eph 4:4-5). Like Noah’s ark, you have to be on board to be saved–like Noah’s ark in the flood, outside of which none were saved, Baptism now saves (1 Peter 3:20-21), and since we are baptized into the one Body, the Church has the same significance as the one and only ark.
In addition, to have fellowship or communion with Christ in His Body, you must have fellowship with those who have fellowship with Him (1 John 1:3). We are forbidden, therefore, from schisms and dissensions and must be united in belief (1 Cor. 1:10). Heresy and schism–deviations from that belief and united community–therefore, also exclude from the Church and salvation (Gal 5:20-21; Titus 3:10-11).
Furthermore, while Christ is the head of the Church, He has also willed that the Church be led by men (Acts 20:28). He put one Apostle, St. Peter, in charge of His one and only flock (John 21:15-17)–therefore, to be a member of Christ’s flock is to be a member of the flock tended by those who continue to exercise Peter’s ministry.
Our sins are to be forgiven through the ministry of the Church (John 20:21-22) and the faith is to be taught by those with succession from the Apostles–those who have been sent (Rom 10:15). Going out without being sent, on the other hand, is harmful to souls (Acts 15:24).
So to sum up, those communities that went out without being sent from the Church Christ founded, do not have their sins forgiven through the Apostolic ministers, do not partake of the one Bread, are not of one belief with the Church they had separated from, do not acknowledge their authorized shepherds, etc., etc., are not the one Church.
As for the Bible, it says we must be baptized (John 3:3) into the one Body in the one Spirit (1 Cor. 12:13), partake of the one bread as one Body (1 Cor. 10:17), and profess the One Lord, one faith, one Baptism (Eph 4:4-5). Like Noah’s ark, you have to be on board to be saved–like Noah’s ark in the flood, outside of which none were saved, Baptism now saves (1 Peter 3:20-21), and since we are baptized into the one Body, the Church has the same significance as the one and only ark.
In addition, to have fellowship or communion with Christ in His Body, you must have fellowship with those who have fellowship with Him (1 John 1:3). We are forbidden, therefore, from schisms and dissensions and must be united in belief (1 Cor. 1:10). Heresy and schism–deviations from that belief and united community–therefore, also exclude from the Church and salvation (Gal 5:20-21; Titus 3:10-11).
Furthermore, while Christ is the head of the Church, He has also willed that the Church be led by men (Acts 20:28). He put one Apostle, St. Peter, in charge of His one and only flock (John 21:15-17)–therefore, to be a member of Christ’s flock is to be a member of the flock tended by those who continue to exercise Peter’s ministry.
Our sins are to be forgiven through the ministry of the Church (John 20:21-22) and the faith is to be taught by those with succession from the Apostles–those who have been sent (Rom 10:15). Going out without being sent, on the other hand, is harmful to souls (Acts 15:24).
So to sum up, those communities that went out without being sent from the Church Christ founded, do not have their sins forgiven through the Apostolic ministers, do not partake of the one Bread, are not of one belief with the Church they had separated from, do not acknowledge their authorized shepherds, etc., etc., are not the one Church.
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redal
Guest
Not a hill worth dying on.
I know some Evangelicals who are better Christians than some Catholics; and some Catholics who are better Christians than some Evangelicals.
Unlike when we get married in the Catholic Church, when we meet our Lord, we are not going to have to prove our love and fidelity by presenting Certificates of Baptism and Confirmation, instead the proof we need will be how we lived our lives, whether we worshipped in a Cathedral or an Auditorium!
I know some Evangelicals who are better Christians than some Catholics; and some Catholics who are better Christians than some Evangelicals.
Unlike when we get married in the Catholic Church, when we meet our Lord, we are not going to have to prove our love and fidelity by presenting Certificates of Baptism and Confirmation, instead the proof we need will be how we lived our lives, whether we worshipped in a Cathedral or an Auditorium!
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John_Martin
Guest
That is correct, and they were called “the Way”, and they were called “Christian” and now they are called “Catholic” - a single church, with a lot of people protesting because the Church will not let them say truth is whatever they want truth to be; these protesters are called “Protestant”.I don’t see the word catholic in the bible. Just something man made. The original church was not catholic. They were just believers.
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JGD
Guest
The original Church, of course, is the one Jesus founded - on Peter.I don’t see the word catholic in the bible. Just something man made. The original church was not catholic. They were just believers.
Matthew 16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church,.…
As others have mentioned, Catholic means universal - that is, everywhere here on earth - “all nations”. Mt. 28:19 shows Jesus intended “His church” to be “Catholic”.
Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations , baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
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fhansen
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The only reason that various denominations came to exist at all is because some people disagreed on what Christianity means, and so left the original Church. Until that changes and people unite themselves in one fold, the unity you desire cannot be realized.
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CathoRick
Guest
Christians were united under one Church until man-made divisions came about. What you propose would require the forced conversion of all to Catholicism (or a denomination) on pain of death, which isn’t exactly the Christian thing to do or even feasible at this point.
Maybe we’ll continue to see a rise in “non-denominational” Christianity among Protestants, which (as a former non-denom) would be horrific given how it’s basically an even more worldly form of Pentecostalism.
Maybe we’ll continue to see a rise in “non-denominational” Christianity among Protestants, which (as a former non-denom) would be horrific given how it’s basically an even more worldly form of Pentecostalism.
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Sursumcorda1
Guest
Why did the Apostles bother to baptize and lay hands on people if the sacraments are so worthless (as you claim)?we are not going to have to prove our love and fidelity by presenting Certificates of Baptism and Confirmation,
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redal
Guest
You are making a pretty bold, errant and accusatory claim, and I forgive you.Why did the Apostles bother to baptize and lay hands on people if the sacraments are so worthless (as you claim)?
I never said the sacraments were “so worthless”, and I deeply resent your contentions that I did.
The thread was not a discussion on the theological efficacy of the Sacraments we Catholics hold dear, but a discussion on how basic Christian beliefs transcend religion, as Jesus taught during his public ministry when he condemned the Pharisees.
I hope you find peace.
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Sbee0
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The word catholic means universal, for all. This word is found in the Apostles and Nicene creeds. This is the Church founded by Christ Himself.
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KMC
Guest
I agree with this. Simply being Catholic does not guarantee that a person is living out the faith as God intended.I know some Evangelicals who are better Christians than some Catholics; and some Catholics who are better Christians than some Evangelicals.
This I would disagree with for the following reasons:Not a hill worth dying on.
…Unlike when we get married in the Catholic Church, when we meet our Lord, we are not going to have to prove our love and fidelity by presenting Certificates of Baptism and Confirmation, instead the proof we need will be how we lived our lives, whether we worshipped in a Cathedral or an Auditorium!
- In Mt 28:19, we are to “make disciples of all nations,” with verse 20 commanding us to “teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.”
- What are some of the things Jesus commanded us to do? Be baptized. Eat His body and drink His blood. Love you neighbor and enemy, etc. etc. Some of our Protestant brothers and sisters don’t feel baptism is a requirement. Some reject (and some even mock) the Real Presence. Some reject the idea of being able to lose one’s salvation.
I’m sure I’ve misunderstood you. Could you clarify?
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redal
Guest
You did, and I choose not to, given past interactions on any comment I have made.I’m sure I’ve misunderstood you. Could you clarify?
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Cathoholic
Guest
Guest1 . . .
I also want you to show me where the word “Bible” is in the Bible.
And one last thing please.
I also want you to show me in the Bible where the title of the “word” of any doctrine NEEDS to be there to beleve that given doctrine.
Thanks and God bless.
Cathoholic
If I showed you the word “catholic” in the Bible, would it make a difference to you?I don’t see the word catholic in the bible. Just something man made. The original church was not catholic. They were just believers.
I also want you to show me where the word “Bible” is in the Bible.
And one last thing please.
I also want you to show me in the Bible where the title of the “word” of any doctrine NEEDS to be there to beleve that given doctrine.
Thanks and God bless.
Cathoholic
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Annie
Guest
The Bible says that it is the church which is the pillar and ground of truth, not the Bible, the last part of which had not yet been compiled.
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KMC
Guest
Another thought:I don’t see the word catholic in the bible. Just something man made. The original church was not catholic. They were just believers.
If you were alive in the year 49AD, what would the source of your theology be?
The books of the N.T. were written between 50AD and 100AD. There would be no “Bible”, only various scrolls that make up various Jewish sects “Scriptures.” So, without a Bible in the year 49AD, would you choose to remain Jewish, demanding that a Bible be written before you can believe anything different? Would you be Sola Old Testament?
First century Christians had no Bible, no written New Testament, only the oral Gospel handed on by word of mouth. So where in the Bible does it give the year we are supposed to ignore the oral Gospel, and only accept what is in the written Gospel?
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