There were no popes in the early church!

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swimstud:
I was reading an protestant website to help me see why so many protestants want us to leave our Church( they sure do have a lot of reasons) so I could learn the answers to their accusations. I came across this statement that Peter was not the first pope nor were there any other early popes. How would you respond to this accusation?

As for the claims of the Roman Catholic Church that its history can be traced back to Jesus Christ, Peter, or the other apostles, such claims lack both historical and Scriptural support. The true Church of Jesus Christ was not founded upon Peter, but upon Peter’s confession of Christ’s deity as recorded in Matthew 16:16: *"… Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. " *Peter was not the first pope nor is there any Scriptural justification whatever for such an office. Peter’s own inspired testimony as to his position and ministry is given in I Peter 5:1-4. He further identifies himself in 2 Peter 1:1 *as "a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ…’ *History confirms the fact that there were no popes in the early church nor even in the Roman Catholic Church during the first centuries of its existence.
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I think I’d say that Jesus’ own words disprove their assertion. Jesus said to Peter alone, “YOU are Cephas (rock) and on this Cephas (rock) I will build my church”. Jesus did NOT say to Peter “your confession is rock and on this rock I will build my church”. No, he said specifically that PETER was rock. Gotta go with Jesus on this one.

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
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Greg_McPherran:
Also, I am open to being shown where I am wrong and I welcome it in order to deepen my faith and understanding. However, I am disillusioned at my experience of being a Catholic here in Massachusetts and I do not understand some things about how we run our Church.

Perhaps the greatest irony of all is that it is the Church’s tolerance of dissent that has caused me to lose trust. This tolerance made it clear to me beyond questionable doubt that the Church is simply not run properly. A properly run Church would never tolerate the nonsense that has been going on. I don’t mean to be impolite, but this is what I see. This has to go to the top. This further indicates that maybe there is something inherent in our structure that is wrong.

A woman wrote that in Detroit, faithful priests are turned away. I have heard of other such issues in seminaries. I’m sorry, but this is not a “problem”, this is a complete and utter insanity.

Look at Fr. McBrien. He’s a theology professor at the top Catholic University in the country. He goes on TV and says Jesus’ wife might have been at the last supper!!!

Half the Catholics vote pro-abortion.

I am not a member of VOTF and I oppose them because they dissent. However, I think we need to make some serious corrections with our Church. I have proposals, not criticism. I think it’s time for serious change. The current organization simply is not working well.

Greg
Thankfully you seem to fully understand that the behavior of individual Catholics has no effect on the truths taught by the Church. This seems to be lost on a lot of people.

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
Keeping to the subject…

What is the best evidence of popes in the early Church?

Greg
 
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Amadeus:
Do you mean the Church of Greece, which is Orthodox, or the entire group of Eastern Churches, which is composed of so many Churches: Eastern Orthodox Churches, Oriental Orthodox Churches, Assyrians of the East and their respective counterparts in Catholicism, the Eastern (or Greek) Catholics?
The Greek Church of the patriarchs. The official title is Greek Orthodox - true? I informally refer to them as the Greek Church.

Does the fact that they don’t recognize the pope tell us anything about popes in the early Church?

Greg
 
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Greg_McPherran:
The Greek Church of the patriarchs. The official title is Greek Orthodox - true? I informally refer to them as the Greek Church.

Does the fact that they don’t recognize the pope tell us anything about popes in the early Church?

Greg
“Greek Church of the Patriarchs” is very incorrect. You suffer from the misconceptiont that the “East” is Greek. Only the Patriarch of Constatinople can be called Bishop of “The Greek Church”. The Patrarchs of Antioch, Jerusalem and Alexandria are NOT Greeks nor Greek speaking.

The FACT is that the Patriarch of Constantinople wanted and still wants to be EQUAL to the Bishop of Rome. He Claims the title “Ecumenical Patriarch” and claims the same authority as the Pope. Most Eastern Christians reject his claims. Non-Catholic Eastern Christians acknowledge that the Pope has the Primacy in the West but not in the East. They theologically acknowledge his Primacy. The disagreement is over the SCOPE of his Primacy. Thier theory is that ALL the Patriarchs have an equal Primacy in thier respective jurisdictions. Catholic Eastern Chrsitians have a Collegial conception to Primacy. All the Patriarchs are equal with Primacy in their respective Jurisdictions with the Bishop of Rome as the Head of the College. All Western Priests and Bishops are directly subordinate to the Pope. The Eastern Catholic Heirarchy is NOT directly subordiante to the Pope. The Eastern Priests and Bishops are directly subordinate to thier Patriarchs who work with the Pope to lead the Church.

To give it a secular analogy. The Pope is the Chairman of the Board of Directors of a large conglomerate of corporations. Each individual corporation (Patriarchate) has its own leadership. All members of or answerable to the Board of Directors (college of bishops) and they to the Pope.
 
Hello (Father, if I am not mistaken). That is excellent information, thank you. If there were popes in the early Church then why wouldn’t the patriarchs recognize the full scope of this office?

Greg
 
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Greg_McPherran:
Hello (Father, if I am not mistaken). That is excellent information, thank you. If there were popes in the early Church then why wouldn’t the patriarchs recognize the full scope of this office?

Greg
Which Patriarchs are you talking about? Stephanos II The Coptic Patriarch of Alexandria is a member of the College of Cardinals as is Nasrallah Sfeir, Patriarch of Antioch and all the East. Patriarch Micheal Sabbah of Jersalem also acknowledges the Primacy of Rome.

In the Early Periods there was never any disagreement over the Primacy of the See of Peter. (see quotes below from early councils.) The Schism was caused more by political considerations than theological. The “filioque” clause in the Creed is more problematic to the Orthodox than Papal Primacy. There are Patriarchs who do not aknowledge Papal Primacy. But as you see from the quotes below, they used to. They are the “Orthodox”, as they have been called since the schism, not Catholic.

I am a “Father” because I have kids, but I am not a Priest. A simple layman of the Maronite Catholic Church.

Council of Sardica
“If some bishop be deposed by the judgment of the bishops sitting in the neighborhood, and if he declare that he will seek further redress, another should not be appointed to his see until the bishop of Rome can be acquainted with the case and render a judgment” (canon 4 [A.D. 342]).

Council of Constantinople I
“The bishop of Constantinople shall have the primacy of honor after the bishop of Rome, because his city is New Rome” (canon 3 [A.D. 381]).

Council of Chalcedon

“Bishop Paschasinus, guardian of the Apostolic See, stood in the midst [of the Council Fathers] and said, ‘We received directions at the hands of the most blessed and apostolic bishop of the Roman city [Pope Leo I], who is the head of all the churches, which directions say that Dioscorus is not to be allowed to sit in the [present] assembly, but that if he should attempt to take his seat, he is to be cast out. This instruction we must carry out” (*Acts of the Council, session 1 [A.D. 451]).

“After the reading of the foregoing epistle [The Tome of Leo], the most reverend bishops cried out: ‘This is the faith of the fathers! This is the faith of the apostles! So we all believe! Thus the orthodox believe! Anathema to him who does not thus believe! Peter has spoken thus through Leo!’” (ibid., session 2).*
 
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metal1633:
I am a “Father” because I have kids, but I am not a Priest. A simple layman of the Maronite Catholic Church.
I confused you with Matt_XXX (XXX is some number). He is a priest I think.
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metal1633:
In the Early Periods there was never any disagreement over the Primacy of the See of Peter. (see quotes below from early councils.) The Schism was caused more by political considerations than theological. The “filioque” clause in the Creed is more problematic to the Orthodox than Papal Primacy. There are Patriarchs who do not aknowledge Papal Primacy. But as you see from the quotes below, they used to. They are the “Orthodox”, as they have been called since the schism, not Catholic.
Yes, these are the ones I am referring to. It would seem right for them to reunite, especially if they know their predecessors accepted the Primacy of the Papacy.

This also may lend credence to the question of the thread, that there were popes in the early Church. How early in time were these other bishops that recognized the papacy?

Greg
 
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Greg_McPherran:
How early in time were these other bishops that recognized the papacy?
Greg
In 80 A.D, Clement, former companion of the Apostle Paul and then Bishop of Rome, used said authority to settle matters of dissent in the Corinthian Church. " Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret. . . . If anyone disobey the things which have been said by him [God] through us *, let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger."

Also in the Apostolic Period the author of “The Shepherd” makes referance to the duties of the Bishop of Rome as involving the whole Church, not just local matters. “Therefore shall you [Hermas] write two little books and send one to Clement [Bishop of Rome] and one to Grapte. Clement shall then send it to the cities abroad, because that is his duty”

Ignatius of Antioch, disciple of John and ordained Bishop by Peter himself said the Church of Rome has “The Presidency” over the other Churches. “to the church also which holds the presidency, in the location of the country of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and, because you hold the presidency in love, named after Christ and named after the Father”

In the late second century the letters of Pope Clement and Pope Soter were read as Scripture in some Churches (not a direct referance but showing the level of authority attributed to them.) “Today we have observed the Lord’s holy day, in which we have read your letter [Pope Soter]. Whenever we do read it [in church], we shall be able to profit thereby, as also we do when we read the earlier letter written to us by Clement”

Also in the immediate post-Apostolic period, when dissensions arose in Gaul, letters were sent to Pope Eleutherius asking him to settle the matter. The messenger…Irenaeus. Converted in his youth by Polycarp, disciple of John. Irenaeus said that the all the churches must agree with the Church of Rome. " With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition"

So the first three generations of Christians held the belief that the Church of Rome “because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree”, that its duties extended to the whole Church and that it held the presidency and place of highest honor.

Into the thrid century we have Cyprian of Carthage who says…

“On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were also what Peter was *, but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?”

“With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the chair of Peter and to the principal church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source”

I can go on and on. Quoting Jerome and Augustine and many others. But I think this will do.**
 
Greg,
How early in time were these other bishops that recognized the papacy?
It depends upon how your interpret history. Orthodox interpret “primacy” of the bishop of Rome a bit differently than Catholics do. I’m not convinced by their interpretation, however, so that’s why I’m Catholic. 😉

For example, after the General Council of Chalcedon in the 5th century, canon 28 was rejected by Pope Leo I. The Patriarch of Constantinople, Anatolius, sent an apologetic letter to Pope Leo which clearly shows, in my opinion, that the Patriarch understood Pope Leo to have jurisdictional authority (not merely primacy of honor) to ratify or reject canons of an ecumenical council, even when those canons were overwhelmingly appoved by the majority of bishops. The bishops of Chalcedon sent all the canons to Pope Leo specifically requesting his ratification (implying governmental authority of the one bishop over all the others).

Note that the bishops did not send the canons to every bishop for ratification, but to Pope Leo specifically, asserting explicitly that Pope Leo had been given “custody of the vine by the Savior.” It appears to me that the Church at that time understood that the Pope was not just another bishop among bishops, but have true jurisdictional authority over the entire Church.

Here’s an excerpt from the letter from Anatolius, Patriarch of Constantinople to Pope Leo I:
As for those things which the universal Council of Chalcedon recently ordained in favor of the church of Constantinople, let Your Holiness be sure that there was no fault in me, who from my youth have always loved peace and quiet, keeping myself in humility. It was the most reverend clergy of the church of Constantinople who were eager about it, and they were equally supported by the most reverend priests of those parts, who agreed about it. Even so, the whole force of confirmation of the acts was reserved for the authority of Your Blessedness. Therefore, let Your Holiness know for certain that I did nothing to further the matter, knowing always that I held myself bound to avoid the lusts of pride and covetousness. – Patriarch Anatolius of Constantinople to Pope Leo, Ep 132 (on the subject of canon 28 of Chalcedon).
 
From a Protestant source (CCEL), here’s the letter from the Bishop’s of Chalcedon to Pope Leo I requesting that he ratify the canons of Chalcedon.

ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-12/Npnf2-12-98.htm

Here’s some interesting excerpts:
“and besides all this [Dioscoros, Patriarch of Alexandria] stretched forth his fury even against him who had been charged with the custody of the vine by the Saviour, we mean of course your holiness” (Letter 98 from the Council of Chalcedon to Leo)
Today, we often hear the revisionist claim that the Pope aquired his primacy due to political or secular influence or authority. However, this is not what the bishops of east and west at Chalcedon understood. They explicitly state that the Pope’s authority came from Christ, just as Catholicism today continues to assert.

The letter continues …
… being set as the mouthpiece unto all of the blessed Peter … you were Chief, as Head to the members … And we further inform you that we have decided on other things also for the good management and stability of church matters, being persuaded that your holiness will accept and ratify them, when you are told. … we have yielded agreement to the Head in noble things, so may the Head also fulfill what is fitting for the children … the See of Constantinople will receive its recompense for having always displayed such loyalty on matters of religion towards you, and for having so zealously linked itself to you in full agreement. (ibid)
Do the bishops of east and west at Chalcedon seem to believe that Pope Leo is just another bishop among bishops? Or do the bishops of Chalcedon seem to be asserting what Catholicism continues to assert: the primacy of both honor and jurisdictional authority of the Bishop of Rome over the entire Church?
 
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Greg_McPherran:
Keeping to the subject…

What is the best evidence of popes in the early Church?

Greg
Who better than the enemies of the Church? I think the Roman empire was after each pope to try to reduce the influence of the Church. I thought I read that something like all but one of the first 75 popes were martyred. I took this to mean the Roman empire had records of the popes, a “hit-list” if you will.
 
This has turned into a fascinating conversation. Keep up the good works guys. 👍

{Stylteralmaldo goes back to his corner as an interested observer :o }
 
Excellent information Metal and Dave!
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MichelleTherese:
A typical case of re-writing history. Ugh!!!
What are you referring to Therese?

Greg
 
I like Rascal’s defense. 👍

Could be circumstantial but we know that Pope Clement was exiled by the Roman authorities to Crimea to die! :yup:

BTW, “VOTF” is “Voice of the Fathful” (?) and you can go from there! 😃
 
The word “pope” is the English version of the Greek word papas (bishop) and the Latin word papa (father). Since the Middle Ages in the Western Church it has come to be a word used to refer exclusively to the Bishop of Rome who, like Peter at the Council of Jerusalem, draws the other bishops around him to consult before making the final and binding decisions on matters of faith and morals.

Some Protestants might object that there is no mention of a “pope” in the New Testament, so why should we believe in popes? Since the word “pope” means “bishop,” there was mention of Peter as the apostle at Rome, and so he is entitled to be called by the modern term for bishop, pope.

As MERCYGATE just pointed out, this question can be reversed with devastating effect. Why should we believe in the New Testament since the “New Testament” is not mentioned in the New Testament?
 
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Greg_McPherran:
Keeping to the subject…

What is the best evidence of popes in the early Church?

Greg
You’ve just got to order the marvelous picture book with pictures, explanations about ALL the Popes from St. Peter to the present ----“Popes Complete”. It’s awesome.

Look up www.popescomplete.com

God Bless~~
 
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