V
VociMike
Guest
Then your salvation requires your obedience. Not perfect obedience (impossible), but some obedience. How does OSAS deal with that?
- Status
S
sandusky
Guest
First of all, let me state, and compare/contrast what is meant by “OSAS” within the different “systems,” (my position in the blue below):1. Classic Arminianism
• One must persevere in faith to be saved.
• True believers can lose their faith.
• Those dying without faith in Christ are condemned.
The believer who loses his faith is damned.
2. Antinomianism
• One need not persevere in faith to be saved.
• True believers can lose their faith.
• Those who lose their faith are saved, since they once believed.
The believer who loses his faith is saved.
3. Classic Calvinism
• One must persevere in faith to be saved.
• True believers cannot lose their faith, since it’s God’s gift.
• Those dying without faith in Christ are condemned.
• Those who “lose” their faith never had it to begin with.
• God will preserve true believers and they will be saved.
The ‘believer’ who loses his faith never really had it—or at least it wasn’t
“in Jesus,” but his faith was in an organization and its requirements (church), or, his faith was in himself, and/or his works.The first thing one must do is obey God’s command to repent (Acts 17:30; Lk 24:47; Acts 26:20; Titus 2:11ff).
V
VociMike
Guest
But “once saved” must one obey any more? In particular, must you obey any more? Over the e.g. 60 year life of a saved person, must they obey God at all?
S
sandusky
Guest
Of course.
J
JoeyWarren
Guest
What about death-bed conversions?
Person becomes one of the elect at the very last moment of existence…
Person becomes one of the elect at the very last moment of existence…
S
sandusky
Guest
That’s not scriptural.
One does not become elect because of what one does.
One is elect because of what God has done (Rom 8:30, 33; Eph 1:3ff).
If one converts at death, that’s God’s will (Jn 1:12-13).
B
brkn1
Guest
Yes! We still have remnants of the sin-nature always in us in this body. You can not totally eliminate that part of your nature while on this earth, even though the Holy Spirit brings His perfect incorruptable nature to dwell inside a born again eternally saved person.
That indwelling enables us to gradually reduce and weaken the sin-nature we were born with. That is called sanctification, which is not the same thing as our sealed permanent justification .
We have a High Priest in heaven as our Advocate with the Father Who takes care of those sins that we commit after being saved. We confess those sins through the enabling of the Holy Spirit to the Father in our Advocate’s Name (Jesus).
The Lord Jesus’ ministry right now is the continual “washing of our feet”, as we go through this dirty world, still subject to the weakening, but still sin causing sin-nature that we can not be totally rid of until we are removed from this weak earthly body.
If our feet are not being constantly washed by Jesus, then “we have no part” of Jesus.
Jesus said that we only need to wash our feet, since a saved person is already “washed”. See (John 13:8-10) to understand the figure of speech Jesus was using here.
Notice how Jesus points out Judas as not being clean in verse ten, even after cleaning Judas’ feet. That is to show that physical cleaning was not what Jesus was taking about, when He talked about cleaning our feet.
V
VociMike
Guest
So then both justification and sanctification are necessary for salvation, and once saved we still have it within our power to reject sanctification and thus not be saved. Am I getting it right?
B
brkn1
Guest
In the beginning of the book of Acts, the laying on of hands was the method used by the Holy Spirit of granting the indwelling of Himself into the beloved.
If you keep reading the book of Acts, you will find that this method is not always necessary. An example would be the Roman Centurion and his family, who received the Holy Spirit before Peter could even get past the hearing of the gospel. There was no laying on of hands or baptism before the Holy Spirit was already evident.
The Holy Spirit is NEVER limited by what any man does in His sovereign work. He does as He pleases in bringing God’s chosen into the fold.
R
Rihopo
Guest
“and on this rock I will build my church, and the jaws of hell shall not prevail against it.”
Any insecurities about Satan destroying the church are crushed by Jesus’ promise. It’s in the bible, I believe in the book of Matthew. But I have forgotten exactly where, so someone else will be able to lead you in that direction.
B
brkn1
Guest
No, it is only justification by the washing away of our sins by the Precious Blood of Jesus that saves any sinner.
The resulting sanctification, which comes later, is Jesus maintaining those who wisely go on in obedience and in the joy of being eternally saved.
An eternally saved person can reject or ignore the sanctification process and still be saved, but there will be no joy in his life anymore and sin will definitely not satisfy him, as the Father “beats the living daylights” as He chastens such an ungrateful wicked servant child. There will be no commendation or further heavenly rewards for that wicked servant, but he will still be saved even after all his earthly works are burned up at the judgement. The wicked servant makes it in spite of his foolish response to God’s gift of eternal salvation.
B
brkn1
Guest
I agree. The definition of what makes up the True Church is where we might not agree on. That is another topic than this thread though.
J
JoeyWarren
Guest
Maybe I can phrase the question better?
Can you explain why they had not recieved the Holy Spirit until hands were layed upon them? Why it took An Action of an Apostle?
As for the Centurion, the Holy Spirit was received while hearing the Word (44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.). It still took An Action of an Apostle.
B
brkn1
Guest
That would seem to be the best form of being saved by the RCC understanding.
There would be no need to worry about losing one’s salvation in that scenario.
V
VociMike
Guest
Aren’t you contradicting what you said earlier, when you answered “Yes!” to my question as to whether some obedience was necessary for salvation? Now you are clearly saying that no obedience is necessary for salvation.
J
JRKH
Guest
Faith + Works of course. the only place in the bible where faith alone is even used is in James 2:24 where he says, “You must percieve that a person is justified by his works and NOT by faith alone.” this is followed in vs 26 with, “be assured then that faith without works is as dead as a body without breath.”
If you believe the bible is God’s Holy Word, then you believe the above. If you ignore the above, then you reject part of God’s Holy Word. We just don’t have to do any song and dance about whether someone was already saved in reality or not.
When one truly understands that “notion”, they will see that this is no different than the OSASers out of saying that if one loses their salvation it was because they didn’t ever really have it.
Again I have to point out that this is no different than what you are saying about OSAS. That the person who goes forward and professes Christ, is a good church member for years, then falls away into mortal sin, immoral behavior etc. “Never was saved”. the only difference is one of semantics. We accept that a person can all away. a “notion” that is backed up by James 5:19-20, "My brothers, the case may arise among you of someone straying from the truth, and another bringing him back. Remember this: The person who brings a sinner back from his way will save his soul from death and cancel a multitude of sins.
Now as to the trent Quote, it is interesting that you chose to highlight the second half but ignore the first half (a common problem with SSers)
As Trent states:And, for this cause, life eternal is to be proposed to those working well unto the end, and hoping in God, both as a grace mercifully promised to the sons of God through Jesus Christ, and as a reward which is according to the promise of God Himself, to be faithfully rendered to their good works and merits. For this is that crown of justice which the Apostle declared was, after his fight and course, laid up for him, to be rendered to him by the just judge, and not only to him, but also to all that love his coming.
For, whereas Jesus Christ Himself continually infuses his virtue into the said justified, as the head into the members, and the vine into the branches, and this virtue always precedes and accompanies and follows their good works, which without it could not in any wise be pleasing and meritorious before God, we must believe that nothing further is wanting to the justified, to prevent their being accounted to have, by those very works which have been done in God, fully satisfied the divine law according to the state of this life, and to have truly merited eternal life, to be obtained also in its (due) time, if so be, however, that they depart in grace…
Trent gives the nod to God’s grace and to Christ’s sacrifice, and the infusion of His virtue, but, they also conclude that the believer has "truly merited eternal life."
Works are performed within the framework of salvation. It was thus “Declared” by the “Apostle”.
It is shown time and again, yet it is ignored. Funny, when you think how much you rely on the bible that you should ignore the entire book of James.
To this I can only respondSo?
Trent was clarifying things that hadn’t needed to be clarified before because no one was teaching any “faith alone” heresies before the Reformation. the church did this many times in it’s history, like when the Arians denied the divinity of Jesus. Aren’t you glad the Church clarified that?
The Christian church, moving forward from Pentecost, until the 1500’s has never taught "faith alone’, yet it was the church who codified the Bible that you base this “faith alone” doctrine on, and then another 200 years or so before OSAS showed up as a doctrine.
So it took more than 1500 years before the “Real” and “True” “Biblical” understanding of scripture could come about??? So the HS kept OSAS from us until the 1800’s???
If that were the case, I wouldn’t think much of that “holy spirit”. but thankfully that is not the case.
The HS has been around teaching the truth for many centuries and the Church has been watchful in reviewing and comparing all new teaching to Scriptures, and Early Church Fathers, and Previous Councils so that we have the best and most accurate understanding of God’s love and Desire for us.
Peace
James
J
JoeyWarren
Guest
You and others missed the intent. A person sins all his life and recieves Christ on his death bed whereas another Person accepts Christ at an early age and never sins at all. They both stand in front of God as equals…
V
VociMike
Guest
Not losing (“oh no, I’ve misplaced my salvation and I can’t find it!”), but rather, rejecting. Nobody worries about rejecting something they have deliberately chosen to reject.
B
brkn1
Guest
There were different methods of the Holy Spirit coming upon a person.
The Centurion did not need the first laying on of hands to receive the Holy Spirit. The order was reversed. The Holy Spirit was already in the Centurion before the laying on of hands.
The hearing of the gospel is necessary as you pointed out. You get no argument about the role of the church in preaching God’s Word from me.
The Holy spirit is in total control of the work of salvation though.
Laying on of hands will not work if the Holy Spirit does not agree with what a man is doing. The saving HS indwelling is strictly God’s work of salvation, not ours.
B
brkn1
Guest
Yes. As equals in Christ’ work of being redeemed from all sin, but not as equals in further rewards (crowns).
Like the wicked servant, who buried the talent, even the talent will be taken from him, but the bad servant is still saved and will be no less a child of God. He will not be as happy though as he could have been, if he were obedient etc.
There will be degrees of happiness in heaven, as in hell, there will be degrees of torment. Jesus said so.
- Status