There's no OSAS

[Ted_in_Charlott]

Good morning to all. I am a Southern Baptist convert. I came into the Roman Catholic Church Easter Vigil 2006 at the tender age of 48.

These were all teachings I had heard all my life as a Southern Baptist growing up in the SE USA:
OSAS
Symbolic Baptism
Symbolic Lord’s Supper
No Apostlitic Succession
No Real Presence
Contraception is ok
Catholics worship Mary
Catholics kill Christ every Mass
And others that I can’t quite remember right now, I am forgetful, sorry.

When I was in RCIA, it was like boot camp for me. I had to re-learn everything. I read, memorized, and prayed about everything. I had lot’s of questions. I resolved lots of things, OSAS especially. I took the rest on faith. I find my Catholic Faith lovely and full. And it all quite logical to me, specifically on matters of Mortal Sin and “losing my salvation”.

I had struggled with OSAS going back long before I converted to RC. Just didn’t make sense. I had heard about too many people that had “walked down the aisle” and then committed a truly terrible act, this was reconciled with comments like “He wasn’t really saved” or “God is sovereign”. Neither of those were comforting. I don’t know all the answers, and both sides of this issue can quote verses from the Bible, some in context, others not.

But as a RC, I have something that the OSASavers don’t have: I have a Magesterium, a teaching authority/Church that pre-ceeded the Bible and was established by Jesus to interpet and teach. So even if I don’t have all the answers, I know I have an authoritative Church on which I rely / depend. And OSAS is not their teaching, so I reject it.

I guess it really comes down to this: Which came first the Church or the Bible? Who/What has authority? For me, I trust the Roman Catholic Church and all of it’s teachings, including those involing the forgiveness of sin, of which OSAS is not.

 

[JRKH]

Good morning to all. I am a Southern Baptist convert. I came into the Roman Catholic Church Easter Vigil 2006 at the tender age of 48.

These were all teachings I had heard all my life as a Southern Baptist growing up in the SE USA:
OSAS
Symbolic Baptism
Symbolic Lord’s Supper
No Apostlitic Succession
No Real Presence
Contraception is ok
Catholics worship Mary
Catholics kill Christ every Mass
And others that I can’t quite remember right now, I am forgetful, sorry.

When I was in RCIA, it was like boot camp for me. I had to re-learn everything. I read, memorized, and prayed about everything. I had lot’s of questions. I resolved lots of things, OSAS especially. I took the rest on faith. I find my Catholic Faith lovely and full. And it all quite logical to me, specifically on matters of Mortal Sin and “losing my salvation”.

I had struggled with OSAS going back long before I converted to RC. Just didn’t make sense. I had heard about too many people that had “walked down the aisle” and then committed a truly terrible act, this was reconciled with comments like “He wasn’t really saved” or “God is sovereign”. Neither of those were comforting. I don’t know all the answers, and both sides of this issue can quote verses from the Bible, some in context, others not.

But as a RC, I have something that the OSASavers don’t have: I have a Magesterium, a teaching authority/Church that pre-ceeded the Bible and was established by Jesus to interpet and teach. So even if I don’t have all the answers, I know I have an authoritative Church on which I rely / depend. And OSAS is not their teaching, so I reject it.

I guess it really comes down to this: Which came first the Church or the Bible? Who/What has authority? For me, I trust the Roman Catholic Church and all of it’s teachings, including those involing the forgiveness of sin, of which OSAS is not.

First of all WELCOME HOME!!!

Secondly thank you for a wonderfully written post.

I am a revert and am still relearning my faith.
Your testimony is one I have heard time and again from converts. That as they learn more about the church there is an irresistable draw there. That so much of what they thought they knew about the Church was wrong, and that there is a richness and fullness in Christ’s Church that no “Bible” Church could ever offer them.
As a cradle Catholic I took so much for granted, and so wasted many years of my life in searching and spiritual experimention. But it was the basic teachings of my youth, that no other faith could overcome. Nothing else rang so true as Christ through Holy Mother Church. Finally, through the loving strength of my mother and Godfather as well as the miraculous intervention of the Holy Spirit, both my dear wife and I re-entered the Church.

Peace
James

 

[promethius95945]

We agree that we can never earn salvation or ever be worthy of such a wonderful gift.

sure do.

I understand and agree also about our repenting or turning away from our sinful ways towards our God and Saviour, although even that is only the result of God already having drawn us to Him.

agree with the first, disagree with the second. If charitable good works are a forced part of Christian life, then there is no free will to engage in them and therefore there is no morality in living a holy life, as a part of moral culpability, both good and bad, is the free ability to perform as one chooses.

The idea of our being able to attone in any way for our past, present and future sins is foreign to what the bible teaches.

quite incorrect. Jesus tells us that it is better for us to make things right with our neighbor than to go to bed with hatred in our hearts. If I throw a rock through my neighbors window and I want to make things right, as Jesus COMMANDED, then three things must occur:

1. I must feel sorry for the wrong that i did. (contrition)
2. I must appologize (confession)
3. I must pay for the window (atonement)
   Does paying for the window fix everything how it was? no. Does it make the window unbroken in the first place? No. Sin is the same way, we can never erase its effects, but at the same time we are required as a part of “making things right” to atone for our sins, if for no other reason than to heal the spiritual window that is broken in our soul when we commit injustice.

There would have been no need for Jesus to die in our place if any sort of attonement for any of the sins on our part was possible. God would have just created that purgatory you believe in and put us all there for however long it took. I don’t find that idea in Scripture either.

Incorrect. I said atonement is necessasary, not that it was sufficient. Nothing we do in atonement can alleviate the suffering and damage caused by our sin, but it is still required for true contrition and absolution. If we’re not even willing to lift a finger to help make things right with our bretheren (as Jesus COMMANDED, re: biblical command) then we’re really not sorry for our sin in the first place.

Faith may be the instrument or means that God’s Grace works through us, but that instrument is most certainly just as much a gift of God as anything else that we receive from God for our salvation. No part of the working of salvation originates or comes from us.

I know what you’re getting at, but Ephesians 2 does NOT actually agree with you (which is why we should go back to biblical times and remind them not to split infinitives. When Paul says “8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.”

what he is saying is actually that GRACE is the gift from God. Grace, and ONLY grace. if salvific faith, especially OSAS salvific faith were a gift from God, then that would make God cruel and mean to only give it to such a few number of people. Instead, Grace is a free gift for all, but the ACT of faith is one of free will, and faith is required to obtain the gift of Grace for salvation… which occurs at death, not when the minister with the funky hairdo waves his hands over you because you went to the front of the aisle.

Lest we settle once and for all the debate of atonement and works, aside from what James tells us, protestants often fail to finish quoting the Ephesians 2 verse from above. The grace through faith verse ends like this:
“10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.”
And there you have it. Paul agrees, good works are insufficient for salvation, but necessary anyway.

When Jesus was questioned : “What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?”
Jesus answered : “This is the work of God. that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” (John 6:29)
Careful study of what Jesus said in this verse proves that even our believing (faith) is completely God’s work, not any of ours where we could later boast.

That’s not “careful study” at all. You have completely ignored verse 27 of that same chapter. If we truly “believe on Him whom He hath sent” (note: get another bible if the words Him and He weren’t capitolized in yours) then we will follow His commands as well. Verse 27 of that very same chapter includes Jesus telling us that we must work for salvific gifts. Furthermore, if you truly believed on Him whom He hath sent, you must ALSO recognize that the following passage details transubstantiation and that therefore the Catholic Communion is valid, whereas any “symbolic” interpretation is hogwash.

We insult God’s gift by trying to add any earning or deserving of that gift.
It would be worse than trying to pay for a trillion dollar gift by giving a piece of dirt as payment.

Actually, we insult that gift when we treat it like it is some right that we should have it. I wonder if OSAS is as widespread in Europe, Latin America, or other nations where entitlement mentality isn’t as developed. That’s all OSAS seems to me: gimme gimme, mine mine min. I’d rather someone came to me and OFFERED to pay for something, even though i knew they never could. I’d rather they tried to earn it and live well than just sit around with “it’s my free gift you owe to me”

 

[brkn1]

There is a lot to reply to here, so I would like to start with a question that was asked several times.

We both have the same God of the Bible as the One we look to for salvation. Even the tiniest mustard seed of true faith in that God, which includes Jesus as Christ, might be adequate for salvation, although we both see the other as being in error on important parts of that necessary faith (and thereby maybe unsaved).

I would not waste time discussing these matters, if I did not recognize at least a basic common ground that we both have in the true faith revealed in Scripture. I do not feel that way about several other religious groups that post in this forum, so I generally avoid them.

The question was asked about how I know that I have the Holy Spirit dwelling in me by a single saving event. It is not an easy thing for a person to describe such an event to another, but there was a point in my life when, in desperation, I was led somehow to ask God, Jesus specifically to help me (save me).
It was not like Paul’s conversion or the thief on the cross, but it was very real and not so much that emotional feeling etc. that some describe.
Life quickly calmed down for me and I began to find the things of God to suddenly become especially appealing to me.
I still have the sin-nature, but it has lost much of its power and does not satisfy or appeal to me as it once did.
I can read and reread just about part of the Bible and not get bored, especially the New Testament. I can find no contradictions in any part of the Bible, when it is taken as a whole. It makes perfect sense, even the supernatural parts. It is so amazingly and perfectly put together, that just reading it confirms my faith in the fact that it is the Word of God. I would never say that I understand all of it, since no human could ever get all of the infinite wealth contained in it. That is what makes it so perfect: it is the infinite living water of the Living Word, Who is the Livimg Bread, Who came down so that we may have eternal life by, through, and in Him.

 

[mchale]

Brkn1,
The basic problem with your argument is that you might believe, emotionally feel sure, that you are saved and that the Holy Spirit is dwelling within you. The question I have is, haven’t you seen other people in your local church who at one point embraced the faith as fully as you, and were just as sure of their salvation? And haven’t you seen some of these same people later leave your church and indeed abandon the Christian Faith?

Now, I think we all know that this in fact does happen. If you doubt me, go to some atheist boards, and I think you will find some former Christians who had once embraced OSAS. Now, I believe the standard reply that I have heard from believers in OSAS is that such people had never been saved in the first place. Now, I can buy that; the only problem is that if they once were sure of their salvation and now don’t even believe in God, doesn’t that suggest that you, or any other person may be wrong about being sure that they are saved?

So to me, even if OSAS is true, it really makes no material difference. We need to continue to be vigilent, and we need to proceed with the knowledge that we could be wrong about our salvation.

–
Bill

 

[JRKH]

(Snip)
The question was asked about how I know that I have the Holy Spirit dwelling in me by a single saving event. It is not an easy thing for a person to describe such an event to another, but there was a point in my life when, in desperation, I was led somehow to ask God, Jesus specifically to help me (save me).
It was not like Paul’s conversion or the thief on the cross, but it was very real and not so much that emotional feeling etc. that some describe.
Life quickly calmed down for me and I began to find the things of God to suddenly become especially appealing to me.
I still have the sin-nature, but it has lost much of its power and does not satisfy or appeal to me as it once did.

This is a very fine testimony. In some ways it re-enforces the “journey” to salvation concept. You took the first step and God responded with Grace.
That Grace helped you see through new eyes and a new heart.

I can read and reread just about part of the Bible and not get bored, especially the New Testament. I can find no contradictions in any part of the Bible, when it is taken as a whole. It makes perfect sense, even the supernatural parts. It is so amazingly and perfectly put together, that just reading it confirms my faith in the fact that it is the Word of God. I would never say that I understand all of it, since no human could ever get all of the infinite wealth contained in it. That is what makes it so perfect: it is the infinite living water of the Living Word, Who is the Livimg Bread, Who came down so that we may have eternal life by, through, and in Him.

Reading the Bible is great.
Have you ever considered reading the Church Fathers? The men who wrote about the early Church before the canon of scripture was determined?

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

The problem I have with the concept of OSAS as taught is that it threatens to create in one the feeling of “spiritual invincibility”. A laziness in living a Christian Life. A person goes down the aisle, professes Jesus as savior, is assured then that they are saved. Then each time they fail to act as a christian should they can fall back on the argument that , “God already forgave me for that. I Am Saved”. I’ve personally seen it too many times.

We agree that we must have the profession of faith, we must accept Jesus, but to simply rest on some bible verses as proof of OSAS is not sufficient since other verses can be offered that prove the opposite. So in order to be sure that we are reading and interpreting correctly we need someone to resolve the issue. How do we do that? We take it to The Church. Not one of the churches, but to The Church.

Let me ask you a question.
Do you say the Lords Prayer?
Do you pray the following as part of the Lords Prayer?
…Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us….

If you are Already Saved, what sense does this make?

We can also look at Matthew 7: 1-2 about Judgement. That how we judge others will be used to judge us.

One other question I will ask:
If someone from your church, a long standing, loving and honorable pillar of your Church, were to leave to become a Catholic would you still believe that person was saved?

Just some loose thoughts

Peace
James

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

IF OSAS is true, and all you have to do is believe in the Lord and from then on you are saved, then do you have to love God once you’ve been saved?

 

[brkn1]

The problem I have with the concept of OSAS as taught is that it threatens to create in one the feeling of “spiritual invincibility”. A laziness in living a Christian Life. A person goes down the aisle, professes Jesus as savior, is assured then that they are saved. Then each time they fail to act as a christian should they can fall back on the argument that , “God already forgave me for that. I Am Saved”. I’ve personally seen it too many times.

We agree that we must have the profession of faith, we must accept Jesus, but to simply rest on some bible verses as proof of OSAS is not sufficient since other verses can be offered that prove the opposite. So in order to be sure that we are reading and interpreting correctly we need someone to resolve the issue. How do we do that? We take it to The Church. Not one of the churches, but to The Church.

Let me ask you a question.
Do you say the Lords Prayer?
Do you pray the following as part of the Lords Prayer?
…Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us….

If you are Already Saved, what sense does this make?

We can also look at Matthew 7: 1-2 about Judgement. That how we judge others will be used to judge us.

One other question I will ask:
If someone from your church, a long standing, loving and honorable pillar of your Church, were to leave to become a Catholic would you still believe that person was saved?

Just some loose thoughts

Peace
James

Your description of a OSAS person does not work that way in a truly saved person. A truly saved person would be miserable and convicted in a state of unconfessed and unrepented sin. God chastens His children severely if they disregard following His will for their lives. That is further proof that they are His adopted children in Christ, which the Bible points out. God chastens His own.

The idea that the authority to interpret the Bible comes only from one group of men or person takes away from the biblical role of the Holy Spirit. Such a claim means that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is available only to some of the Church members, which I do not find in Scripture. Membership in the Body of Christ requires the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Who can guide us to all truth: “…, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light.” (Ephesians 5:8) That light will reveal and bring out all the fruits of the Spirit including any necessary truth.

The Head of the Body of Christ is Jesus alone. The replacement sent to us by Christ is the Holy Spirit, Who guides us in all truth and does not speak of Himself or others, but directs us to the Lord Jesus Christ as the only source of salvation. There are ministers in the Church, but their role, as God’s servants, is to keep our focus on Jesus alone through the preaching of God’s Word, not the lording it over the rest of the body and making themselves out to be a necessary part of salvation with rules that are not found in Scripture.

The authority of the Word of God is what all teaching in the Church must line up with perfectly. If it does not line up, it must be rejected. No “new light” as the Jehova Witnesses etc. claim.
Holy Scripture claims the preeminence by being God’s Word, not man’s word. We are told to search the Scriptures for the answers : (John 5:39) (John 7:42) especially (2Timothy 15-17)

Placing the interpretation of Scripture into the sole hands of one group of people makes that interpretation vulnerable to Satan.
If you notice in the Bible, Satan is not omnipresent. He has to have his minions do most of his work for him as a general does.
They are not as capable as him, since you notice that he takes over in the important stuff.
Jesus succeeded the first time using Scripture, while the devil used misinterpretted scripture to unsuccessfully counter Jesus.
Peter did not do too well with Satan the first and second time. Even after confessing Jesus’ being the Christ through the Holy Spirit, Peter still managed to speak for Satan afterwards.
Judas is an example of the son of perdition when Satan did his work on him.
Man’s failure in just these examples is proof enough that I must use Scripture as the final authority to test any interpretation made by man or group of men. It better line up perfectly or I have to reject it with no apologies.

 

[brkn1]

I know what you’re getting at, but Ephesians 2 does NOT actually agree with you (which is why we should go back to biblical times and remind them not to split infinitives. When Paul says “8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.”

what he is saying is actually that GRACE is the gift from God. Grace, and ONLY grace. if salvific faith, especially OSAS salvific faith were a gift from God, then that would make God cruel and mean to only give it to such a few number of people. Instead, Grace is a free gift for all, but the ACT of faith is one of free will, and faith is required to obtain the gift of Grace for salvation… which occurs at death, not when the minister with the funky hairdo waves his hands over you because you went to the front of the aisle.

Lest we settle once and for all the debate of atonement and works, aside from what James tells us, protestants often fail to finish quoting the Ephesians 2 verse from above. The grace through faith verse ends like this:
"10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
And there you have it. Paul agrees, good works are insufficient for salvation, but necessary anyway.

quote]

BRKN1’s REPLY TO ABOVE QUOTE:
Saving grace and saving faith are two sides of the same coin. They can not be separated the way you claim, or we could boast in our salvation if we used the “act” of our faith to obtain saving grace.
You describe grace as being the later part of God’s program, which does not fit the order described in the very verse you quoted.
It is grace at the same time as the true faith. which makes both a gift wrought by God alone. It is not of yourselves in both cases.

You say that grace is a gift and then you say that gift requires faith to obtain that gift, which takes away any idea of a true gift, which has no requirements to obtain or accept.

Since we are in Ephesians 2, I would be interested in your understanding of verses 5 and 6:

“Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:”

Those verses support the OSAS position, unless you feel that God quickens and unquickens us as we go through life.
The problem with that conclusion is that God quickens us while we are STILL in sin, not after we first get rid of our sins to “deserve” His grace to be saved in Christ.

 

[Reuben_J]

…

The idea that the authority to interpret the Bible comes only from one group of men or person takes away from the biblical role of the Holy Spirit. Such a claim means that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is available only to some of the Church members, which I do not find in Scripture. Membership in the Body of Christ requires the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Who can guide us to all truth: “…, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light.” (Ephesians 5:8) That light will reveal and bring out all the fruits of the Spirit including any necessary truth.

…

This paragraph does strike me as vague and generalizing. Maybe it’s because I don’t quite understand what you’re trying to say.

I think, strictly speaking, only the writers of the Bible can interpret the Bible correctly and no other persons.

Secondly, the Bible has been interpretated long ago by the same people and passed down to generations of apostolic succesions. I don’t see interpretating the Bible as an issue as I cannot see there should be any new interpretation of it.

And that’s why I see the above statement problematic.

The statement about the Holy Spirit can indwell only in some church members is a mis-statement and unnecessary.Simply because those who had interpretated the Bible were inspired by the Spirit. The truth is already reaveled from the beginning, there is no need to reinvent the wheel.

I suppose you mean how to interpret the Bible as it addresses every aspect of our lives, like how the Biblical verses speak to us personally and daily. For that we need the Holy Spirit for inspiration and infilling, and this I believe, is available to everybody who believes and who submit to Him. But I cannot agree that the Holy Spirit would tell us differently on what the truth is.

God bless.

 

[Ted_in_Charlott]

Here is the link to the catholic.com article “Assurance of Salvation”:

catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp

 

[Ted_in_Charlott]

Here is another interesting article regarding OSAS (specifically perseverance of the saints):

christianissues.biz/perseverance.html?gclid=CNS33e2DzpICFSUvHgod1h18BA

 

[JRKH]

Your description of a OSAS person does not work that way in a truly saved person. A truly saved person would be miserable and convicted in a state of unconfessed and unrepented sin. God chastens His children severely if they disregard following His will for their lives. That is further proof that they are His adopted children in Christ, which the Bible points out. God chastens His own.

I heartily agree with the highlighted section above. However that does not prevent people from believing they are saved while not acting like repentant Christians. Don’t mis-understand me, I have met many wonderful “God Fearing” Protestants, but among the ones who are from OSAS background there is often an attitude that, regardless of what I do, I am still saved. This is what I meant by OSAS creating a false sense of security.
You and I recognize that these people are wrong, but there is no convincing them becasue “It’s in the Bible”.

The idea that the authority to interpret the Bible comes only from one group of men or person takes away from the biblical role of the Holy Spirit. Such a claim means that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is available only to some of the Church members, which I do not find in Scripture.

Actually it doesn’t mean that at all. Jesus did not leave us a book. Nor did he promise us a Book. He left us a Church, which is built on the Rock of Peter and which He promised that the Gates of Hell would not prevail against. That Church is guided by the Holy Spirit. The “Book”, that is the Bible is a product of The Holy Spirit’s acting through that Church. the Holy Spirit can and does guide us toward Christ and did so quite effectively for some 400 years before the bible canon was determined and ratified. The Holy spirit did so through the Church which Christ Himself established.

If you became a Christian in the year 200 AD, what would you base your Christianity on? The Holy Spirit? The Testimony of others? Of course you would, but the central authority for your teaching and understanding would be the oral teachings of the Church.

Membership in the Body of Christ requires the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Who can guide us to all truth: “…, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light.” (Ephesians 5:8) That light will reveal and bring out all the fruits of the Spirit including any necessary truth.

First of all I agree with this. It is a basic tenet.

The Head of the Body of Christ is Jesus alone. The replacement sent to us by Christ is the Holy Spirit, Who guides us in all truth and does not speak of Himself or others, but directs us to the Lord Jesus Christ as the only source of salvation.

If the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is all that is needed and he will guide us “in all truth” then why are there so many different ideas and interpretations of scripture? How do we discern which is correct?
And how do you reconsile Pauls statement in 1 Timothy 2: 15 where He states that:
but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. (NKJV)
Remember that there was no “new testament”. No bible as we know it today. Paul refers to “The Church” as the Piller and ground of the truth.

There are ministers in the Church, but their role, as God’s servants, is to keep our focus on Jesus alone through the preaching of God’s Word, not the lording it over the rest of the body and making themselves out to be a necessary part of salvation with rules that are not found in Scripture.

I’m sorry but this shows a very poor understanding of the role of the Church in salvation.
First of all, The Teaching office of the Church, which is refered to as the Magesterium is charged with assuring that any teaching approved by the Church IS in line with scripture, as well as Sacred Tradition (I’ll deal with this later.)
Now how do they do this? The members of the magesterium are highly educated in theology, philosophy as well other disciplines that will help give them insights into issues. They spend many many years studying the Bible. their combined experience is far more than any of us could muster even with our own faith communities. Add to this the amount of time they spend in prayerful reflection, mass, confession, etc. and I think you will begin to see that these people are not trying to “Lord it over” us.
Just a word on “Sacred Tradition” which is comparable to the OT “Oral Tradition”. Sacred Tradion exists because, when the Church was founded and spread in the first centuries, all teaching was oral. Not allof what was passed on was recorded, and when the church leaders met to determine the canon of the Bible, they did not intend for that canon to replace oral teaching, but rather to augment it. You have to keep in mind that, not only was there no printing press, but that most people couldn’t read.

(Continued)

 

[JRKH]

The authority of the Word of God is what all teaching in the Church must line up with perfectly. If it does not line up, it must be rejected. No “new light” as the Jehova Witnesses etc. claim.
Holy Scripture claims the preeminence by being God’s Word, not man’s word. We are told to search the Scriptures for the answers : (John 5:39) (John 7:42) especially (2Timothy 15-17)

Which is why the Holy Catholic Church has the magesterium maintaining a Flock of one Billion Catholics, While the Protestants have thousands of different churches, interpretations, focuses etc. and more are splitting and forming every year.

Placing the interpretation of Scripture into the sole hands of one group of people makes that interpretation vulnerable to Satan.

And Placing the interpretation of Scripture into the hands of every reader protects it from Satan?

If you notice in the Bible, Satan is not omnipresent. He has to have his minions do most of his work for him as a general does.
They are not as capable as him, since you notice that he takes over in the important stuff.
Jesus succeeded the first time using Scripture, while the devil used misinterpretted scripture to unsuccessfully counter Jesus.

So how do we as individuals know if we are correctly interpreting scripture? You are sure of yours by the HS and I am sure of mine by the HS. However, mine is backed up by 2000 years of history, the writngs of the Church Fathers, and the direct, unbroken line back to the apostles.

Peter did not do too well with Satan the first and second time. Even after confessing Jesus’ being the Christ through the Holy Spirit, Peter still managed to speak for Satan afterwards.
Judas is an example of the son of perdition when Satan did his work on him.
Man’s failure in just these examples is proof enough that I must use Scripture as the final authority to test any interpretation made by man or group of men. It better line up perfectly or I have to reject it with no apologies.

I’m not sure of what this proves other than everyone is a sinner and falls short of the Glory of God.
It is precisely our individuality that can cause us to fall. The strength we have is through our belief in god, His Son and the The Church He established through that same Peter.
Peter went on to be the leader of the Apostles and most fearless and outspoken of them. He and the other apostles established a Church to guide the followers and to spread and protect the Good News of the Kingdom. Peter became the first Steward of that Kingdom and that authority has been preserved unbroken for almost 2000 years.
Everything you know of God and Jesus through His Holy Word you owe to the Holy Catholic Church which has Recorded, Taught, Protected and Defended against all trials.

Just as an aside, I would appreciate an answer to my question in the previous post. How do you reconsile OSAS with the Lords Prayer, Forgive us as we forgive?
If I am saved why do I need to ask forgiveness, and then forgiveness only in measure to how I forgive?

Peace
James

 

[Ted_in_Charlott]

I once heard in a movie that the greatest lie Satan has ever told is: He doesn’t exist. If you believe Satan doesn’t exist, then you don’t have to worry about evil, everything is relative and we all go to heaven.

I believe that the second greated lie ever told by Satan is: OSAS. If I was Satan I couldn’t plan it any better. “Hey buddy, you can steal that money, you are saved and don’t have anything to worry about”.

If you believe that by walking down the aisle at a church, where you don’t even have to confess your sins, where you don’t have to actually be baptized and you don’t have to eat the flesh of Christ and drink His Blood is going to save you, and you don’t have to live a life of faith and honestly try your best then you are a believing a lie and you are still under the wrath of God.

If you think you are able to go out and commit all kinds of sin and still be under the mercy of God, you are believing a lie and are under the wrath of God.

If you believe you don’t have to confess you sins to priest, and do you penance in order to receive absolution, you are believing a lie and are under the wrath of God.

If I don’t have a consequence for an action, then what incentive do I have for compliance?

Sola-Scriptura and OSAS are lies from Satan in order to deceive you. God gave you a Church to instruct you and teach you and help you in your Christian walk. And the Our Father is clear on the daily bread thing as is John 6:58 As the living Father hath sent me and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me.

 

[brkn1]

Just as an aside, I would appreciate an answer to my question in the previous post. How do you reconsile OSAS with the Lords Prayer, Forgive us as we forgive?
If I am saved why do I need to ask forgiveness, and then forgiveness only in measure to how I forgive?

Peace
James

I can only answer a few questions at a time, so please forgive me.

It is doubtful that any unsaved person is even capable of truly forgiving another person. They might convince themselves that they can forgive others, but it took God’s work in my life to make that possible for me to do. I had a very unforgiving spirit before being saved and it amazes me how that unforgiving spirit has so much less control of me anymore.

Look at (Mark 11:22-26).
Jesus is only talking about those who are praying in faith, which means that they are already saved and capable of such prayer. An unsaved person could not obey that command of Jesus to forgive others first before confessing and then praying to the Father for forgiveness through Jesus.

 

[promethius95945]

I can only answer a few questions at a time, so please forgive me.

It is doubtful that any unsaved person is even capable of truly forgiving another person. They might convince themselves that they can forgive others, but it took God’s work in my life to make that possible for me to do. I had a very unforgiving spirit before being saved and it amazes me how that unforgiving spirit has so much less control of me anymore.

WHOA… slow down hoss… the fundamental attribute of humanity is present in ALL people, not just christians, and that includes the free will and the thinking ability to forgive others. Removing the humanity of “others” is a dangerous proposition… it’s a first step towards condoning social or physical violence towards them.

You have only the need to look at how Jesus treated the gentiles, romans, tax collectors, etc, to see that the bible itself is horribly against the position that you just took here.

 

[JRKH]

I can only answer a few questions at a time, so please forgive me.

It is doubtful that any unsaved person is even capable of truly forgiving another person. They might convince themselves that they can forgive others, but it took God’s work in my life to make that possible for me to do. I had a very unforgiving spirit before being saved and it amazes me how that unforgiving spirit has so much less control of me anymore.

Look at (Mark 11:22-26).
Jesus is only talking about those who are praying in faith, which means that they are already saved and capable of such prayer. An unsaved person could not obey that command of Jesus to forgive others first before confessing and then praying to the Father for forgiveness through Jesus.

Actually that isn’t what I was asking.
My question is, What significance is there in the line forgive us as we forgive for a person who is saved and cannot lose their salvation?

Peace
James

 

[inthecloud]

It is doubtful that any unsaved person is even capable of truly forgiving another person. They might convince themselves that they can forgive others, but it took God’s work in my life to make that possible for me to do. I had a very unforgiving spirit before being saved and it amazes me how that unforgiving spirit has so much less control of me anymore.

Calvinist Total Depravity doctrine, another doctrine as ilogical as Eternal Assurance rears her ugly head.

In my opinion that Total Depravity leads to distrust and bigotry. The usaved are not fully human beings and cannot be trusted because since they are not saved cannot do any good.