There's no OSAS

[guanophore]

Council of Trent

“If any one shall say, that the ungodly man is justified by faith only so as to understand that nothing else is required that may co-operate to obtain the grace of justification, and, that it is in no wise necessary for him to be prepared and disposed by the motion of his (own) will,-----let him be accursed.” Canon 9.

“If any one shall say, that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the Divine mercy pardonning sins for Christ’s sake; or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified,----let him be accursed.” Canon 12.

These Canons, alone, by the RCC condemn me for questioning the interpretation that the RCC claims to be the only interpretation allowed. Such “condemnation” does not bother me though, since I hold to what is written by the Holy Spirit in God’s Word as having the final say and rule in our salvation. It clearly does not allow any person or church to condemn me for testing their interpretation against Scripture. The RCC interpretations and claims do not hold up to Scripture.

Clearly you have misunderstood the Canons, brkn1. These Canons were written against false teachers, not researchers. They are condemning heresy, and those that teach heresy. Trying to understand soteriology is not considered teaching or embracing heresy. In fact, since it is clear that you have never properly been taught or understood Apostolic teaching, you cannot in any way qualify as heretical. In order to be such, one must first understand and embrace Apostolic Teaching, which you have not.

One of those Apostolic Teachings is that Christ did not write or commission the writing of books for the purpose of teaching. He commissioned the Apostles and transferred to them the seat of Moses. This is why it is not appropriate to separate the writings of the Church from the Teaching Office appointed by Christ. When this is done, misundertanding abounds. The Refomers did separate this, and the separation continues, as every tree is known by it’s fruit, and separation being the root of the tree, we can easily observe the fruit thereof.

 

[distracted]

Yes, the Church teaches that OSAS does apply to some.

Either you are not explaining what you mean very well or i would have to say this is not true…
OSAS means that once you accept Christ you can never lose your salvation… as i understand it, it means that even if you sin mortally, you cannot lose salvation… The Catholic Church, as stated in the canons, anathemtizes that belief…

She also teaches that we are not to presume that we are included in the “some”

Again, maybe i am misunderstanding what you really mean, but these words, on the face of it, imply somethi ng that is not taught… God is no respecter of persons…

so we are to focus on persevering to the end, and not presume upon the grace of God that this perseverance is not necessary.

Also, the Catholic Church teaches that all who have left this world in a state of grace are OSAS,

I would NOT put it this way… though, again, maybe you are not elaborating well… I guess i just have a problem with the words Once Saved Always Saved… I would say it this way, that anyone who has persevered in Christ can be assured that his faithfulness will land him in Heaven, even if he has to go through Purg first… I think the way you are saying things is essentially adding more than one meaning to the term OSAS… and that is just going to confuse people…
)

 

[distracted]

Sometimes it is not prudent to go after the lost sheep immediately because the whole flock may be put in danger.

I have a problem with this (though i really liked what you said up till then). Jesus is the Shepherd (Capital S)… He never hesitates to leave the 99 and go after the lost sheep… It is only the shepherd (little S) who should sometimes hesitate or what have you… meaning, the priests and church members who are all called to be “priest, prophet and king”… as the Church teaches… Jesus is strong enough to handle any consequences that come from so doing, human shepherds are not…

 

[distracted]

Does one just say, sorry God and go on, trying to do better?

That is about the size of it…

Only the most cleansed soul will be joined with God when we die.

So true… as the Bible says, all the way through… I hate to sound… however this will sound but those who believe in OSAS do NOT know the Bible… They know certain passages and even memorize them, but the ones that refute OSAS, they seem to ignore or explain away… and their explanations, as we Catholics & others know, do not hold water… to say the least…

When one considers oneself saved, is this similar to Baptism where all sins are taken away? Or is it the realization one now belongs to Christ and will serve Him all through life?

If one has made a commitment to serve christ forever, well, that person can be said to be more or less “saved”… Yet that commitment will be tested over and over inthis sinful, satan-ruled world… When Jesus was tempted by the devil & promised the world if he would worship him, He did not argue w/ the devil and say that he didn’t own the world so he couldnt offer it… Also, elsewhere in Script it says that satan “owns” or rules the world…

What if two people declare themselves “saved”, but differ in beliefs? Who is saved?

“As a man thinketh, so is he…” If a man believes himself to be already saved, no matter waht, he will act acordingly… he will take sin lightly. There is no way this is NOT going to happen… I can say from logic that this will happen but also from expeirnece… because when i was young, i believed OSAS (when i didn’t know the Bible or Church teaching well)… The consequences of my false beliefs were absolutely disastrous and tragic… and i am now paying the consequneces of my false beliefs… False beliefs, as you know, lead to false actions (as it were)… and a messed up life… I endangered (albeit not intentionally) my soul and the souls of others… OSAS is one of the worse, if not The worst false belief of all…

OSAS is strange terrain for me.

It is strange becaue it is un-Catholic, illogical and worse - a lie from the devil…

 

[distracted]

That’s not eternal security

You are absolutely right… I just wanted to make the point that the Church does not teach the extreme opposite of OSAS, meaning that no matter how committed, no matter what you do or refrain from doing, you must always worry and fret about salvation…

 

[distracted]

There are incentives for the OSAS believer to ‘do better’:

1. Gaining of eternal rewards
2. Avoiding temporal punishment

a true OSAS believer does not believe in temporal punishment…

 

[distracted]

there is no incentive to try to do better. one OSAS person may try, the other not at all

Actually, i know people who claim not to believe in OSAS and even THEY act as thogh they do. To be honest, even I sometimes ACT like its true… though not for long, usually… Old beliefs die hard…

they can keep abusing everyone without any remorse, as long as they remember a scripture verse or two, that will be their excuse when they meet God.

So true… I know someone who lives like that - he has hurt SO many people and he said he repented and maybe he did somewhat… but somewhat may not be good enough in the end… He does really rude things, disrespects people right & left, seems to worship money and prestige… never apologizes (as far as i can tell)…

This guy claims not to believe in OSAS, but as stated, old beliefs die hard… he once blieved in it…

for someone comparing religions for beneficial purposes, this notion of salvation just fails miserably.

for anyone who knows the Bible it really does fail miserably… But many people pick & choose what they believe out of the Bible…

“The Church is the only thing that prevents a sin from being a secret.”
]

 

[distracted]

These Canons, alone, by the RCC condemn me for questioning the interpretation that the RCC claims to be the only interpretation allowed.

I think it was stated elsewhere that the canons are not condemning what you say they are…

Anyway, wasn’t it you i asked the question (not answered) about the children who, against their father’s wishes, go outside and get filthy? They all fall into a large mud puddle, though one accidentally, one intentionally and one is pushed by a companion…

Which one of them is dirty and in need of a bath??

 

[johnnydigit]

Loss of eternal rewards is not temporary. Also, remember Moses was Saved in the end, so his ‘permanent’ punishment was not eternally permanent (he even ends up in the Promised Land…read the story of the Transfiguration again, he is standing with Jesus on the mountain). Also, the thief who is given life imprisonment (or even the death penalty) has not received an eternal punishment, you just agreed that it motivates not to to wrong. Both Moses’ and that hypothetical thief’s punishments are temporal in nature. And, obviously, the kid who loses the use of video games or something is suffering a temporal punishment.

Thus, all the examples you have used to show the ineffectiveness of temporal punishments, are actually examples of effective temporal punishments.

you read what i said, you know what i meant, but for argumentative purposes, you conjur up a disputable perspective.

in case you honestly didn’t get it (in which case i apologize), my point was to emphasize a permanent consequence to sin, and the immediate carrying out of chastizement by God, just like any father would do.

you mess up, you’re not going to disneyland, unless you fully repent and make things right. OSAS - you mess up, don’t worry, you’re guaranteed you’re going. you don’t have to repent or make things right really. you should, but there’s no clear guideline.

living by a conjured up theory that less than 0.00005% of all the Christians in the world subscribe to, weren’t even aware of for thousands of years since the beginning of Christianity itself, and that the most authoritative writers and figures in the history of Christianity believe to be utterly false…

anywho, if you’re destined to honestly and truly believe this, i guess there is some comfort in knowing you at least believe in the One God has sent. prayers!

 

[SeanTom]

Distracted,

I am on the side of Scripture, all of Scripture.

In my opinion, from my understanding (and I am not a theologan), I, by reading scripture and using the knowledge and common sense God gave me, feel that if one is saved, then defies and turns his back on God in a Mortal way, and does not ask God for forgiveness and does not repent, then I feel he will not be entering Heaven.

If he was saved, then commits a mortal sin, he can have that mortal sin forgiven, with the proper repentence (of which God only know), in a most earnest way, and he can then attain God’s Kingdom.

In any case, one has to be in the State of Grace to enter God’s Kingdom. Even though he was saved, and then leaves the faith by living a mortal sinful life and turns his back on God, his saving Grace can be taken away from him and he will be appropriately punished

BUT IN ALL CASES, we can not be certain of his status since only God will know what is in his heart and He will do the judging. I believe that witj all my heart. All we can do is ascertain that a person in Mortal sin will be subject to God’s eternal damnation as stated in Scripture and the Catholic Catechism.

In closing, you wanted to know what side I am on. I am on the side of what I ascertain from reading Scripture and church teachings. My intelligence is thus restricted until I am shown by reputable authority that I am wrong…-.

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

^Scripture also testifies to this:

Heb 10:[23] Let us **hold fast **the confession **of our hope **without wavering, for he who promised is faithful;

[That goofy Paul, what would they need to have hope for because these people must be already saved, right?]

[24] and let us consider how to stir up one another **to love and good works, **
[Wow, LOVE AND GOOD WORKS, faith alone?]

[25] not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

[26] For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

[Is not Paul saying here that if we sin after “receiving the knowledge of the truth”-whatever that may be: either after being sacramentally baptized or “receiving Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior”- that "there NO LONGER REMAINS A SACRIFICE FOR SINS? Is not Paul telling us that sinning after receiving the truth means that Jesus’ sacrifice no longer applies to that one who has sinned?]

[27] **but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. **

[28] A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses.
[29] How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and **outraged **the **Spirit of grace? **

Scripture is very clear here that when one has sinned after "receiving knowledge of the truth-that is Jesus Christ-that that person has PROFANED Christ’s blood and has OUTRAGED the Holy Spirit?

After profaining Christ and outraging the Holy Spirit do you honestly believe that that person is still going to heaven?

 

[brkn1]

I think it was stated elsewhere that the canons are not condemning what you say they are…

Anyway, wasn’t it you i asked the question (not answered) about the children who, against their father’s wishes, go outside and get filthy? They all fall into a large mud puddle, though one accidentally, one intentionally and one is pushed by a companion…

Which one of them is dirty and in need of a bath??

An eternally saved person is also told to continuously test himself, to see whether he is really saved by how he is measuring up to God’s Word. Our good works in the Holy Spirit confirms our security, as we go through life. A truly saved person will not react to that gift of salvation as you seem insist he will. That is a very carnal claim that you presume to put on those who disagree with your position. There are the fruits (works of the HS through us) of true faith that James pointed to as evidence of a person being born into God’s family.

The biblical term of our being children of God is proof that we are eternally saved now. Even an earthly mother is going to limit the free will of any of her children. Both the child’s father and mother will stop that child from harming himself by physical force if necessary. They are not going to allow that child to simply decide it wants to leave the household and cross the freeway during rush hour etc. They would be bad parents if they did so. I don’t feel the need to carry this example much further, since the point about a child’s free will, not giving him free reign, should be sufficiently made.

Children of God do not get to grow up and leave the family the way you might try to counter my example. Once an adopted sealed child of God, that is what we must remain, as we are in the Son of God (Christ).
Christ promised to keep those whom the Father chose and gave to Him.
This deal was done before the world began, although there is still some way that we are brought into the choosing process after we were already chosen by God. That “choice” on our part can not be a work, since the Bible clearly says it is a free gift ( Grace ). Anyone now born into this world, that is given somehow by the Holy Spirit to come to God, through Jesus as the Way, will in no wise be cast out. We can never fully understand or explain that coming to God here, but the Bible supports what I said. That is God’s Wisdom and man’s wisdom is foolishness in comparison.

Our being one of God’s children does not give us the right to then go out and act the way such an ungrateful person that you describe would. I can’t believe you seriously believe that is the natural reaction of a sealed child of God. Your pointing to people that act that way is just contrived silly logic. You must have never come across a true born from above child of God. I think you are like those scientist that overlook any result that does not fit what they want the result to be. It would be like me saying that, since there are some bad priests, they all are. That would be just nonsense!

A child of God no longer gets out of God’s family. You don’t get to grow up and start your own family, the way it is done here on earth. If you have foolish second thoughts about leaving God’s family after you are sealed into it, you might be able to use your free will to rebel, but your Father will make you change your mind pretty quickly as He promises to chasten His own. Look at David’s life for a good example of temporal punishment on earth for disobedience.

 

[ryanoneil]

I understand the RCC position on denouncing faith alone, although I disagree with it.

What my posting the Council of Trent’s Canon9 and Canon12 had to do with, was the idea that those Canons do not allow me to question the RCC’s claim to be the apostlic successors as the Lord Jesus gave us permission to “try them which say they are apostles,…”, which would have be measured against and must show to be according to God’s Word.
The RCC says I must accept their claim on blind faith, without such testing against Scripture, or I am anathema (accursed).

Rev 2:2 is refering to unauthorized and perverse missionaries. Test all you want. We are encouraged to do so, but make sure you have the proper interpretation of Scripture.

As far as I know, the Church doesn’t demand blind faith but instead demands informed faith.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[nsper7]

‘distracted’, it would help your case if you would refrain from the insults, such as accusing those who believe in OSAS of not really knowing the Bible and you declare OSAS to be a devilish idea. After all, from this side it sounds like you can’t come up with a reasonable argument and are thus turning to the ad hominem attack. Most of your argument has been quite subjective so far.

Also, to Grey Pilgrim and others who seem to resort to the simple quoting of Scripture to try and attack the other POV, it seems to show a real lack of respect for the other guy. Roman Catholics hate it when Protestants pull out Scripture and throw it out there and declare that it is proof that Roman Catholicism is incorrect.

you read what i said, you know what i meant, but for argumentative purposes, you conjur up a disputable perspective.

in case you honestly didn’t get it (in which case i apologize), my point was to emphasize a permanent consequence to sin, and the immediate carrying out of chastizement by God, just like any father would do.

you mess up, you’re not going to disneyland, unless you fully repent and make things right. OSAS - you mess up, don’t worry, you’re guaranteed you’re going. you don’t have to repent or make things right really. you should, but there’s no clear guideline.

living by a conjured up theory that less than 0.00005% of all the Christians in the world subscribe to, weren’t even aware of for thousands of years since the beginning of Christianity itself, and that the most authoritative writers and figures in the history of Christianity believe to be utterly false…

anywho, if you’re destined to honestly and truly believe this, i guess there is some comfort in knowing you at least believe in the One God has sent. prayers!

I know what you wrote and I believe I know what you were trying to say, but the comparison you make fails for the simple fact that every example you list is a example of a temporal punishment. You have stated that you do not believe that the threat of temporal punishment will truly keep a Believer in line (as compared to a threat of eternal damnation…loss of eternal rewards might be construed as a form of eternal punishment but not damnation/loss of Salvation), but then to prove your point you show how threats of various temporal punishment keep people in line.

Also, if you are going to quote statistics (such as that 0.00005% remark), then back them up and show where you got them.​

Perhaps the issue is that the OSAS (actually, Free Grace…after all, I am an FGer, not Reformed) concept of justification for the Believer has not been explained well. Basically, what it amounts to is that justification is eternal (in the true sense of the word) and the Believer’s past, present and future sins are forgiven. Now, one could argue that the idea of, at the point of justification, sins future to that point being forgiven is strange, but remember that, unless you live almost 2,000 yrs.ago and were alive when Jesus was crucified, all your sins (including past ones, which Roman Catholics would say are forgiven immediately at Baptism) in the future from the positional point in time of the crucifixion/resurrection. And, yes, one could abuse that grace, but remember that St. Paul talks of ‘carnal Christians’ and warns that those who have no works to back up their faith will be lose eternal reward (he uses the example of ‘good’ and ‘bad’ works being tested by the fires and the Believer suffering loss of treasure).

Also, does the fact that such a theology can be abused disprove it? After all, look at history, Roman Catholic theology (especially the sale of indulgences) has been abused. Does this automatically disprove Roman Catholicism? You cannot have it both ways. You either argue it based on Scriptural merits or on more subjective bases, but if you opt for the latter, then it brings all theology (including your precious Canons and Catechism) into very quick question.

 

[nsper7]

a true OSAS believer does not believe in temporal punishment…

Where do you get that idea from?

 

[nsper7]

^Scripture also testifies to this:

Heb 10:[23] Let us **hold fast **the confession **of our hope **without wavering, for he who promised is faithful;

[That goofy Paul, what would they need to have hope for because these people must be already saved, right?]

[24] and let us consider how to stir up one another **to love and good works, **
[Wow, LOVE AND GOOD WORKS, faith alone?]

[25] not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

[26] For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

[Is not Paul saying here that if we sin after “receiving the knowledge of the truth”-whatever that may be: either after being sacramentally baptized or “receiving Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior”- that "there NO LONGER REMAINS A SACRIFICE FOR SINS? Is not Paul telling us that sinning after receiving the truth means that Jesus’ sacrifice no longer applies to that one who has sinned?]

[27] **but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. **

[28] A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses.
[29] How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and **outraged **the **Spirit of grace? **

Scripture is very clear here that when one has sinned after "receiving knowledge of the truth-that is Jesus Christ-that that person has PROFANED Christ’s blood and has OUTRAGED the Holy Spirit?

After profaining Christ and outraging the Holy Spirit do you honestly believe that that person is still going to heaven?

A problem with the verses you quoted:

Using that Hebrews verse about there no longer being a sacrifice if one sins willfully, you’d have to (as it you are intepreting it now) have to explain some Roman Catholic theology. After all, in Roman Catholicism, one can sin willfully and still be forgiven if they Confess it. This passage does not say that. It is interesting how people love to throw this passage out as proof against OSAS/Free Grace, but, as interpreted, it goes against many other Christian theological views.

A Free Grace response to your quoted passage:
A Punishment Worse than Death: Hebrews 10:26-31
For Whom Does Hebrews 10:26-31 Teach a “Punishment Worse than Death”?

 

[Fisher]

I wonder how protestants explain this passage:
Mtt 10,22 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
To the end…
Almost 5 centuries of contradicting the Scripture is definitely too much.
God bless.

21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to** death**, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.

22 And ye shall be** hated of all men for my name’s sake**: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

23 But when they** persecute you in this city**, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Jesus was telling them dont worrie about your life keep the faith how can you not believe in ETERNAL SECURITY thats what faith is. trust in Him and Him alone.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish,** but have everlasting life**. (John 3:16 KJV AV1611)

 

[guanophore]

Jesus was telling them dont worrie about your life keep the faith how can you not believe in ETERNAL SECURITY thats what faith is. trust in Him and Him alone.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish,** but have everlasting **life. (John 3:16 KJV AV1611)

Catholics trust in Christ, and believe in the eternal life that only He can give. We just do not presume to have attained everlasting life while we are still in this life. As long as we are in the body, it is possible to abandon HIm.

 

[distracted]

An eternally saved person is also told to continuously test himself, to see whether he is really saved by how he is measuring up to God’s Word.

this sounds like a … how should i say (?) distorted?? Catholicism… something close to Catholic but not quite… not worded correctly…

Our good works in the Holy Spirit confirms our security, as we go through life. A truly saved person will not react to that gift of salvation as you seem insist he will.

I am glad i don’t have to wonder whether or not i am saved… I know that i am saved if and only if i do everything Jesus Christ commands me to do…
It is not as stultefying as you may think… Good works are not just feeding the poor (although it is that…), protesting abortion clinics, etc… it is also such things as prayer, meditation, forgiveness of others (from the heart, as per St. Matthew 18:23… incidentally a scripture that is against OSAS…)… It is making time to be alone with God…

That is a very carnal claim that you presume to put on those who disagree with your position.

I feel you are just tyring to insult me here… Maybe you need to WORK on bed-side" manner a little…

There are the fruits (works of the HS through us) of true faith that James pointed to as evidence of a person being born into God’s family.

you can be “born into” a family and then decide you don’t wnat to be in that family anymore… The Holy spirit doesn’t force people to stay with Christ… when temptation rears its ugly head and the person no longer cares to resist… the person can do as he pleases… and lose salvation, temporarily or permanetly…

the biblical term of our being children of God is proof that we are eternally saved now.

It is not "proof " to me… I feel you are ignoring important scriptures that teach against OSAS… Do you think it is wise to ignore the Word of God just because it goes against what you have chosen to believe??

Even an earthly mother is going to limit the free will of any of her children.

She can TRY… You must not be the parent of a teenager… or if you are, your teenager is not like others… Try controlling children at any age… God does not interfere w/ our free will… He intervenes in our lives to get us on the right path but he won’t force us to stay on it… (etc)…

Both the child’s father and mother will stop that child from harming himself by physical force if necessary.

NOt true of God… He didn’t stop me from making ignorant mistakes whne i was young and now i have to pay for them… some of them i have to deal with for the rest of my life… Thank God He intervened… by providing me with an “unwanted” rosary…

They are not going to allow that child to simply decide it wants to leave the household and cross the freeway during rush hour etc.

But when they are grown, they can do what they choose & there is nothing the parent can do to stop them… God doesn’t stop people either…

They would be bad parents if they did so.

So, would you dislike God if you found out that he allowed us to do as we choose, even to the extent of commiting murder? would you still love him if you knew he would not stop a person from going to Hell (since that is what the person him or herself CHOOSES?)?
I think we all need to accept God as He is… not as we would want Him to be… We cannot “create God in our own image…”

come to God, through Jesus as the Way, will in no wise be cast out.

If a person insists of being cast out, he will be cast out. If a person persists in rejecting Jesus, Jesus will keep chasing after Him… but as the Scripture says, God’s spirit will not always strive with man’s… If man insists on going his own way, he will not be forced by God back to the right way… (except that God will allow certain people, events to come into that person’s life to try to get him 2 change his direction…but that is not force…)…

We can never fully understand or explain that coming to God here,

so true

but the Bible supports what I said.

NOt true…

. I can’t believe you seriously believe that is the natural reaction of a sealed child of God. Your pointing to people that act that way is just contrived silly logic.

I feel you have gone against God by treating me, someone made in His image, with disrespect… I have not used this kind of language with you… Need i say that i “rest my case”?? You went against St. Matthew 25:31-46… in my humble opinion… Would you say to Jesus: “Your pointing to people that … way is just contrived silly logic”… (?)

You must have never come across a true born from above child of God.

No, i have lived in a vacuum all my life…

Here’s a shock for you: I have been filled with the Holy Spirit… at the age of about 15… I wasn’t in any church at all, but the Catholic Church was the one and only one i had ever been in at that time… for 2 yrs i was madly in love with Jesus, followed Him in every wya, read His Word every day… but things happened… very mysterious things that i still don’t understand… Probably only will u/stand when in Heaven… in any case, i fell away, gradually, then maybe not so gradually… I hit rock bottom… Catholic prayers saved me, got me back into intimacy with Christ… If i had died b4 that happened, i probably would not have gone to Hell but would have gone to Purgatory, then to Heaven… I wouldn’t have gone to Hell (i FEEL) because i really did love Jesus even though my life didn;'t show it… and had always tried, in my own stupid way, to live the way he wanted. but in the process of living a Christian life MY way, i committed mnay sins and as stated, am now paying for them and paying DEARLY… I am working out my salvation w/ fear & trmebling (James 2)… and it’s OK …

I think you are like those scientist that overlook any result that does not fit what they want the result to be.

that could be said of many people… but i have investigated things far more than you know…

A child of God no longer gets out of God’s family.

u r repeating yourself… He gets out if he chooses to get out…

but your Father will make you change your mind pretty quickly

Huh?? What ?? I sometimes wish God WOULD force me to do the right thing. It would make Christian life a lot easier… :hypno: :banghead:

. Look at David’s life for a good example of temporal punishment on earth for disobedience.

Perfect example… and waht if David had died before he was able to expiate his sins? would God throw him into Hell because of the impure state of his soul?? No, he would know that David loved him and would, therefore, give him a chance to repair his damaged soul in Purgatory… No unclean thing (stained by sin) will enter Heaven (Rev 21:27)…

I agree with you partly in that I feel it is very Difficult to lose your love of and commitment to Christ… Once you are filled w/ the spirit, it is almost impossible to fall away from Christ… but it is not absolutely impossible. The Green River killer was a born-again Christian who (quite obviously) went against Christ… If he dies unrepentant, do you believe he would to Heaven??

 

[Fisher]

Catholics trust in Christ, and believe in the eternal life that only He can give. We just do not presume to have attained everlasting life while we are still in this life. As long as we are in the body, it is possible to abandon HIm.

sure you can abondon your walk with God and lose fellowship with him but he will never abandon you.

Now, let me warn you that as we relinquish our lives to the Lord and begin to see victories, Satan is going to work that much harder to get us to doubt our abilities to serve God. The devil sees our spiritual growth, also. He is going to do everything he can to mess up the new path we are trodding–the new seeds we are sowing.
If the devil is not attacking us, then there is something wrong in our lives. Any growth on our part will attract the attention of the devil. He is the Great Deceiver, and he knows how to sneak into our lives. He knows our weak spots. Yet, we need to continually be relinquishing self-ownership to God to keep the devil from gaining any victory in our lives. If we make a mistake, we can remain confident that God is still going to finish what He started in us. Philippians 1:6 says, Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ. God is going to complete what He began in us!