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brkn1
Guest
Well, I’m sure the RCC would find your description of OSAS as far more adequate than anything I could give you, so go ahead with what you understand it to be.
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distracted
Guest
The Catholic Church does not say we have to confess our belief in the Catholic Church in order to be saved.
If you are talking about confessing our sins… well, we have for that John 20:19… “Whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven…”
Also, to confess belief in the Catholic Church, though not required… is to confess Christ. As a saint once said (at least one saint): The Church is Christ… (Even if you say the Church is the Body of Christ, well, Same thing…).
If Christ is your redeemer, why do you reject his Church?? He only established ONE!!!
How can you know such a thing when St. Paul even said that he didn’t know whether he was going to make it…?
“Work out your salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12)
Who says? YOu? The Bible you claim to believe in says that you can lose your salvation… (St. Matthew 18:23… etc.)
a gift can be rejected… and also, the Bible speaks of not only being forgiven, but of being Cleansed of the ill effects of your sin… Revelation says that no unclean thing will enter Heaven. A Christian can be forgiven… but if he does not allow Jesus to cleanse him… he is not ready for Heaven and must go to Purgatory until he is purified…
The only assurance anyone has is the knowledge that God is merciful… but God is also holy and the Bible tells us we must be holy in order to see God. If you have sinned & not been cleansed, you are not holy…
Then you don’t know the Bible…
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VociMike
Guest
Oh no, nothing to apologize for. You were the victim of bad information, that’s all.
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JRKH
Guest
Well, at least you can assume that a Catholic source will be the “final word” on Catholic doctrine and practice as well as definitions of terms used in Catholic documents.
Peace
James
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Phil12123
Guest
NO. Read 1 John 2:27 which was written to true, Blood-bought, born-again believers, not the CC.
YES. When are you going to become part of it?
**Sorry if they sound arrogant but in what way have I said anything that was misleading? Can you quote it for me and explain how it is misleading?
Actually, you sound a little arrogant, which to me means unteachable, like when you say…**
Sorry but THAT sounds arrogant to me. May I suggest you read and take to heart Prov. 15:32? You can decide how to understand it. I won’t try to explain it to you.
**I am trying to help you. The person who will say to Jesus, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?” thought he was “doing what is right and what is good” and yet Jesus said to him, “Depart from me, you evildoer.” Why? Since you think you have seen the light, how about you explain that one to me.
And while you’re at it, please answer my questions, which you conveniently ignored:
Do YOU believe “salvation is…a gift from God alone”? Do YOU presently possess that gift? Do YOU have eternal life right now, as a present possession? Or do you think you won’t have it until you do good works and die “in a state of grace”? If you have it right now, are you assured you will have it when you die? Or do you have to DO something more to get it, keep it, or maintain it?
**
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brkn1
Guest
I just saved some of your post to make a point.
I do not reject Christ’s One Church, of which all born again sinners become members of by the Holy Spirit becoming a permanent indweller of that soul.
You mentioned Revelation, which is an interesting book of the Bible that addresses different parts of Christ’s Church individually.
Could you show me where the Roman Catholic Church is the only established ONE of those churches?
The different parts of the ONE Church that Jesus established are shown to be individually responsible to Christ alone for their actions as members.
Maybe you could point to the Roman Catholic Church in another part of the Bible that I may have overlooked, but Jesus does not seem to address that church by such a name in Revelation.
It is the individual true members of the churches making up His One Church that Jesus seems most interested in; not any general member that may only be a church member in name, without also being a true church member set by the permanently sealed baptism of the Holy Spirit.
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Phil12123
Guest
LOL, I like that. A person who is truly saved to begin with wouldn’t blow up that classroom. Seriously, I’ve never really met and talked to anyone who I was convinced by their life and testimony was truly saved to begin with but later rejected the faith and did evil things like blowing up classrooms. I suppose someone here knows someone like that, but I don’t. It would seem that anyone who did that would be insane or out of their mind. It is hard to imagine anyone who at any time loved Jesus and embraced Him as Savior and Lord but who later wanted to reject Him. I realize Peter denied the Lord three times and what he did seems unfathomable after being with Him for 3 years, but I guess fear can cause people to do unthinkable things. Do you think Peter was saved but lost his salvation until restored to the Lord? We never really see Peter asking Jesus for forgiveness, do we? His repentance is probably seen when the Lord looked at him and then he went out and wept bitterly, but if he ever verbally asked for forgiveness, it is not recorded.
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jcoldc
Guest
For Protestants, I am wondering why (if your religion is right) did it take so long for your sect(s) to break from the Church? As I understand it, they didn’t split until they saw problems with what people were doing. Admittedly, there were some problems there. And I understand the greivances at the time. But everyone was practicing RCC for quite a while. It didn’t seem like anyone was questioning church doctrine. What caused them to protest was the sins/faults/mistakes of the people in charge.
Maybe I just don’t understand…
PS. Phil, I’m still interested in your response to my other two posts. thanks.
Maybe I just don’t understand…
PS. Phil, I’m still interested in your response to my other two posts. thanks.
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VociMike
Guest
Here’s a very real case in point. Saved or never saved?
amazon.com/Losing-Faith-Preacher-Atheist/dp/187773313X
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wisdomseeker
Guest
answer me this. did Jesus say if you love me you obey my commandments? is not the Bible full of things given from God for us to do or not? does the Bible say Faith alone is dead? or not?
you should be very worried about your salvation since you have been dissobidient to Christ? you choose to ignore history from the beggining as if christianity began on the 1600s. i got news for you, it began with Jesus continued with the apostles and continued with Jesus Church to this day. i do not care if you accept that or not.
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Phil12123
Guest
Sounds like he was saved, from what little Amazon lets you read of the book. I just don’t want to spend $25.00 to buy his book, though I would like to hear the rest of his story, or better yet, sit down with him and have a personal one-on-one conversation with him. I wonder if anyone has done that and had any articles published about him. He probably doesn’t do interviews because it would cut into his book sales.
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JRKH
Guest
TO ALL - -
Please simmer down a bit. If you do not wish to discuss the topic, please don’t post.
Posts that escalate the emotional level only serve he who loves anger and hate - The evil one.
please don’t strengthen him.
Peace
james
Please simmer down a bit. If you do not wish to discuss the topic, please don’t post.
Posts that escalate the emotional level only serve he who loves anger and hate - The evil one.
please don’t strengthen him.
Peace
james
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JRKH
Guest
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guanophore
Guest
So, you do not think it is incumbent upon the saved to bear fruit that befites repentance? One may never merit the gift, but are you saying that one should not walk worthy of the calling he has received?
On the contrary! I cleaned up the mess I made unwrapping them, I made sure all the parts stayed together, I put them away where they belonged an “took ownership” of them by making myself responsible for their care!
Oh, indeed I can, and have. When I went off and left my bicycle outside the store out of my sight, and not locked, do you think the folks were a bit surpised it was stolen?
No, I do not see it that way. Accepting God’s gift and responding to it with appropriate receptive attitude and behavior in no way changes the gift. You can;t go back and “earn” something that was given, but you certainly can demonstrate that you are a person worthy of being entrusted with so great a gift.
1 Tim 4:14-16
4 Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophetic utterance when the council of elders laid their hands upon you. 15 Practice these duties, devote yourself to them, so that all may see your progress. 16 Take heed to yourself and to your teaching; hold to that, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.
Look how many imperatives (“do this”) are here:
do not neglect the gift
practice these duties
devote yourself
take heed
hold fast
These are all things that people must do. None of them invalidate the gift, but all will show fruits that befit repentance.
Do you believe that the Catholic Church teaches something other than this?
Let’s be honest, do you think it is really possible to take up one’s cross and carry it without the grace of God.
I never said that, calling it, “the salvation process.” Paul in Eph. 2:8 tells the Ephesian Christians that they “have been saved” past tense. You reject that and make it into a long “process” with no certainty of outcome until after death and judgment. That is because you, in effect, reject being saved as a matter of receiving a gift. You make it a reward not to be received (or if received, not to be kept) until after a life that is deserving of it based on your works.
Actually, Catholics do not “reject” that salvation has begun at the point of justification. Baptism is past tense for the initiated. We consider it a process because we believe in free will, and we believe that a person can reject God up until one’s faith is perfected. It does not mean the gift was not free, it just means that the recipient threw it away.
I think you misunderstand the Catholic understanding of merit/reward. It does not have to do with getting justified as a free gift.
Sure, but since the NT was written by Catholics, doesnt’ that count?
** But that behavior is not what makes them your children. They were born into your family, something they had nothing to do with. When a person is born into God’s family by receiving Christ (John 1:12-13), he acquires a spiritual status or standing that is eternal since he receives eternal life. **
Children can be disinherited, and squander their status by leaving the house. Eternal life is more appropriate looked at as a river. One can enter, and remain within, or enter, then exit. One may wander, then return to it. All the time, the free gift is still there waiting to surround any who will enter and preserve those that remain.
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Phil12123
Guest
Yes.
Yes.
**Not sure what condemnation you are referring to. Not aware of telling anyone they were going to hell. I did say, and will repeat here, that if you don’t receive God’s gift of salvation as a free gift paid for by the Blood of Christ, you will never receive it, because you are saying, “It is not enough for Him to die for me, I have to add my works to His Work for it to be enough to get me into heaven.” If you fit that last group then I guess you will go to hell of your own choosing, again, not because you did good works but because you are depending on them to get you into heaven rather than on the Work of Christ alone. Good works are the product of saving faith and will get you rewards IN heaven, but they are not something that will get you INTO heaven.
Recall Paul’s strong words against the Judaizers who merely wanted to add circumcision to the Gospel. Now for the Jewish believer that might seem like no big deal. After all, God called it an everlasting covenant to be practiced throughout the ages (Gen. 17). But to make it a requirement for salvation, to say, you can believe in Christ but you also have to be circumcised to be saved, brought Paul’s swift condemnation to the point of labeling anyone who would teach such a thing “accursed” (Gal. 1:6-9). The Greek word is anathema. Well, the RCC has added many more things to the simple Gospel and would no doubt have received an even more strenuous condemnation by Paul were he writing his letter today. Now, there is nothing wrong with circumcision per se or even some of the things the RCC says should be practiced. But to make them a requirement of salvation is the key. Good works are fine but they can never be made a requirement to get into heaven, any more than circumcision is.
Now, since “wisdom seeker” refuses to answer, would you please explain why Jesus would say, Depart from Me, you evildoer, to someone who has prophesied in His name, cast out demons in His name, and done many wonderful works in His name? Is He saying those things (which He does not deny occurred) were NOT the will of the Father?**
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guanophore
Guest
I am curious about this too. Why would Jesus make a reference to something that is not possible to do?
Rev 3:5
5 He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life;
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Peter_Da_Rock
Guest
No, that is not we are saying. That is what you think we are saying. The Bible is a whole not specific verses.
Believing in Jesus is a loaded phrase. To TRUELY believe in and on Jesus is to “Believe” and “Do all that he commanded” and all that “His Apostles commanded”
You don’t do as Jesus commanded, then you don’t TRUELY believe.
Hence:
These are those that believe but don’t do. They profess with the mouth and/or mind that Jesus is Lord but they don’t do the will of God, which is all that Jesus commanded and all the Apostles Commanded.
Ditto
James corrects anything Paul wrote that was twisted and distorted.
A resounding No.
Dead Faith is no faith. Dead Faith will not grant you eternal life.
True faith will mainfest itself by doing good works
But wilt thou know, O vain Phil that faith without works is dead? Dead Faith will not grant you eternal salvation
Works perfects one’s faith.
Justification comes by works and not by Faith Alone
**
Phil, are these verses not in your Bible?**
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JRKH
Guest
And around and around we go - - - - - I’m gittin dizzy - - - -
Phil,
Please listen. I posted a couple of links in my post numbers 158 and 159. These go directly to the Catholic Catechism search. They point out clearly that the CATHOLIC CHURCH DOES NOT TEACH WORKS SALVATION. Yet I constantly see you refering to those who think that our works save us. It just is not true!!! It has never been true.
Why Can’t we all see that we are basically looking at a sky with clouds in it and arguing whether it is partly sunny or partly cloudy.
Faith and works are both necessary components in the salvation mix.
You say that what is necessary for salvation is faith. We agree with that. So please get that clear in your head.
So if I truly have that faith, that acceptance of Christ, certain things must follow. These things are the fruit of that faith and Jesus said we must bear fruit or we will be cut from the vine and burned. This fruit is the actions which tell others that we are followers and believers in Our Lord Jesus who is The Christ. They are the works of faith. Are they part of salvation? Yes and No.
Salvation comes only from God, through Jesus, if we profess Jesus and truly believe, then we will perform the actions, that is perform the works that we are given to do. The actions that will help us grow in His light. If we profess Jesus and do not perform the actions then it is clear that our faith is false. It is clear to others and should be clear to us. Since Jesus himself said repeatedly that our faith saves us, we must redouble our efforts to increase our faith.
I will put this to you in regards faith. Jesus Himself, as recorded in the Gospels said that His diciples would be able to do the things He did, and even greater things. He declared that faith the size of a mustard seed could move mountains. He was absolutely unambigious about this.
So Phil, if you believe you have a faith that has saved you once and for all, have you performed any of the cures that Our Lord did? Have you cured the lame, restored someone’s sight, killed a tree by simply cursing it, changed one fluid into another? He said that you would be able to. Do you believe Him or not? If you have not been able to perform these actions that Jesus said you would, how can you say that you truly have faith sufficient for salvation?
I haven’t performed these acts either, though I believe and have faith in Our Lord. So what does that tell me? That my faith is weak. That I must work on it. That I am not yet perfected in Christ. Does this mean that I try to rest more on “my works” to save me? Not at all. I rely even more on My dear Lord to lift me up. I must trust even more on Jesus because I know that I fall short of the Glory of God. As we all do.
You have a great strength in your faith. I admire that. That strength is why we seem to aggrevate each other so. But there is also a pride in you. One that seems to keep you from recognizing other peoples positions and points of merit. It seems to prevent you from being able to reach out, and instead makes you closed and unable to properly minister and share your faith.
You also seem to be unable to let go of an erronious belief that the CC teaches a works based salvation. I do hope you will take the time to check out the links I posted earlier and at least understand the true teaching of the Church. - You may still disagree with the CC, but at least it will be based on actual teachings and not on misinformation.
Yours in Christ
James
Phil,
Please listen. I posted a couple of links in my post numbers 158 and 159. These go directly to the Catholic Catechism search. They point out clearly that the CATHOLIC CHURCH DOES NOT TEACH WORKS SALVATION. Yet I constantly see you refering to those who think that our works save us. It just is not true!!! It has never been true.
Why Can’t we all see that we are basically looking at a sky with clouds in it and arguing whether it is partly sunny or partly cloudy.
Faith and works are both necessary components in the salvation mix.
You say that what is necessary for salvation is faith. We agree with that. So please get that clear in your head.
So if I truly have that faith, that acceptance of Christ, certain things must follow. These things are the fruit of that faith and Jesus said we must bear fruit or we will be cut from the vine and burned. This fruit is the actions which tell others that we are followers and believers in Our Lord Jesus who is The Christ. They are the works of faith. Are they part of salvation? Yes and No.
Salvation comes only from God, through Jesus, if we profess Jesus and truly believe, then we will perform the actions, that is perform the works that we are given to do. The actions that will help us grow in His light. If we profess Jesus and do not perform the actions then it is clear that our faith is false. It is clear to others and should be clear to us. Since Jesus himself said repeatedly that our faith saves us, we must redouble our efforts to increase our faith.
I will put this to you in regards faith. Jesus Himself, as recorded in the Gospels said that His diciples would be able to do the things He did, and even greater things. He declared that faith the size of a mustard seed could move mountains. He was absolutely unambigious about this.
So Phil, if you believe you have a faith that has saved you once and for all, have you performed any of the cures that Our Lord did? Have you cured the lame, restored someone’s sight, killed a tree by simply cursing it, changed one fluid into another? He said that you would be able to. Do you believe Him or not? If you have not been able to perform these actions that Jesus said you would, how can you say that you truly have faith sufficient for salvation?
I haven’t performed these acts either, though I believe and have faith in Our Lord. So what does that tell me? That my faith is weak. That I must work on it. That I am not yet perfected in Christ. Does this mean that I try to rest more on “my works” to save me? Not at all. I rely even more on My dear Lord to lift me up. I must trust even more on Jesus because I know that I fall short of the Glory of God. As we all do.
You have a great strength in your faith. I admire that. That strength is why we seem to aggrevate each other so. But there is also a pride in you. One that seems to keep you from recognizing other peoples positions and points of merit. It seems to prevent you from being able to reach out, and instead makes you closed and unable to properly minister and share your faith.
You also seem to be unable to let go of an erronious belief that the CC teaches a works based salvation. I do hope you will take the time to check out the links I posted earlier and at least understand the true teaching of the Church. - You may still disagree with the CC, but at least it will be based on actual teachings and not on misinformation.
Yours in Christ
James
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guanophore
Guest
I will add my “amen” to your prayer, as I pray the same for myself, and all members of this board. But, I don’t think see “Scripture as being able to clearly show” anything to anyone. In fact, after taking a course in college of scripture as literature, it was made very clear to me that all scripture, read without faith, is nothing but poetry, history, or polemic, and has no power in the heart of a person. It must be mixed with faith.
The Spirit, on the other hand, is able to speak to the heart of the faithful through the Holy Writings. Yet that Spirit did not intend for the Writings to be separated from the Church that Jesus founded. That Spirit does work through those not properly joined in unity, but always is drawing us to unity.
I think you are wrong when you say “the RCC seems to believe that such ability only exists as the RCC allows it, which is reserved only for itself”. Well, I should not say you are wrong, because you are only expressing how it “seems” to you, but I disagree. First of all, the Church is not “Roman” (this characterization is an insult to the 22 other Catholic Rites who are in union with the bishop of Rome). The ability to understand the Holy Writings is open to all. Yet, the Scripture will best be understoond in the light of the beliefs of those who wrote it, who were all Catholic.
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guanophore
Guest
I agree that it is the power of the HS that makes such boldness possible, but even Peter did not believe and teach OSAS. He taught, as though entering a river, one that entered into eternal life must remain in it until the end. We can see this because he looked at the heavenly inheritance as something that was “waiting in heaven for you”. This is why the Apostolic teaching represents salvation as something that has occurred, does occur, and will occur, in past, present, and future tense. Granted, it is quite beyond our puny understanding of time and eternity, but Peter did not presume to be saved himself, neither did Paul.
I agree with you, that it is possible to “lay hold of that which has laid hold of us” before we die. However, it is possible to still throw this away before the end. Christ did endure the cross, for the joy that was set before Him. Yet, as creatures, we cannot resurrect ourselves. We are completely dependent upon HIs grace to raise us eternally. At whatever point we arrogantly decide otherwise, there will be a place for us among those who also made that arrogant decision.
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