There's no OSAS

[guanophore]

**The problem with this quote is that it does not elaborate on what the writer(s) meant by “perfect.” Does it mean sinless? **

We know that nothing impure can enter heaven, and we know that Jesus taught that we will enter heaven if we keep the commandments.

So, you think if you “follow the comandments of Christ” you are perfect? Are YOU perfect right now yourself? I’ve never met someone who thought they were perfect. “Quite clear”? Then he is clearly wrong.

Is there any reason to thing that those who follow the commandments are not?

"In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zechari’ah, of the division of Abi’jah; and he had a wife of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.Luke 1:5-6

The Didache is Apostolic Teaching. But this revelation of God comes long before the Apostles:

" I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live, 20 loving the LORD your God, obeying his voice, and cleaving to him; for that means life to you and length of days, that you may dwell in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them." Deut 30:19-20

There have always been the “Two Ways”. What is “wrong” with that? Do you think it is wrong for God to give humans a choice?

" For he will render to every man according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality." Rom 2:5-11

Do you think God is “partial” to those who pray the sinner prayer, and believe they are saved forever, no matter what they do?

 

[guanophore]

**

In any event, the passage does not say what happened to A & S after they died. IMHO, if A & S were saved, they died physically and went to heaven prematurely. Believers don’t get to heaven by not lying, nor do they go to hell for lying if they’ve been saved; Jesus died for that sin as surely as all their others. This is not to say believers should make a practice of lying or committing any other sin, but nevertheless their sins have been paid for by the blood of Christ, Who also is making intercession for them when they do sin (1 John 2:1). He is our Advocate, our Lawyer, Who has not lost a case in His representation of believers before the Bar of God.**

So…it is ok to lie to the HS, and one can still spend eternity in heaven with the HS?

Does not scripture also say that the wages of sin is death? Do you really believe that a person can be greedy, deceitful, dishonest etc. and still be in heaven? It boggles the mind! Nothing unclean can enter heaven.

 

[Fisher]

You emphasized “If you keep my commandments…”. (v.10)
Here is the commandment: (John 15:12)…“This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.”

Jesus often spoke of this commandment of loving others, especially the brethren in Christ.

Satan’s great deception today is that “Love is the answer.” No sir, love is NOT the answer! But you ask, “Does not the Bible teach that charity (love) is the greatest?” Yes, for the believer; but not for the unsaved. Let me explain. In 1st Corinthians 13:2,3 the Apostle Paul declared that all the faith in the world would have meant nothing if he didn’t have love. A Christian who has not love is dead weight in the Body of Christ. There are deadbeat pastors all across America, who care more about their next paycheck than anything else. They don’t love people, and don’t genuinely care about others. God is displeased with this type of shallow Christian living. But now the unsaved need to possess something far greater than love, they need faith in Jesus Christ to be saved. This wicked world is filled with loving people, charitable people, and kind souls who are going to burn in the lake of Fire one day because they have not faith in Christ. Matthew 7:21-23 reads…

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

The world’s “love” is exactly like the sinful young man who tells his girlfriend, “If you really love me, then you’ll have sex with me now.” What a lie! If a young man truly loves his girlfriend, then he certainly won’t mind waiting a year or two until they become married to have sex. The world is the exact same way. The witches say, “If you really love us with Jesus’ love, then you’ll stop preaching against our witchcraft.” The sodomites say, “If you really have Jesus’ love, then you’ll accept us and stop spreading your hate speech (the Bible) against us.” You see, just as the sinful young man, who tries to convince his girlfriend that she needs to COMPROMISE her standards to prove her love for him; so does the wicked world come to us, demanding that we prove our love for Christ, by COMPROMISING our standards. Don’t do it! Consider yourself warned!

 

[Fisher]

It is used as an argument that if we know we are “once saved, always saved” that we live just go out and live like the devil. That is not true, not with me anyway and also contrary to many born again saints that know they cannot lose their salvation. When I came to believe that once I was saved I will always be saved - I was in tears of joy. Oh, what a burden that was lifted off my shoulders on that day! Oh, what a joy unspeakable that God put in my heart that day. Oh, how great our salvation is in “Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:” 1 Peter. 1:8 It was just the opposite of what some saved people say and think happens. I then wanted to serve the Lord even more than ever before. It just wasn’t me either, for I have heard many similar testimonies from others as well. Glory to God in the Highest forever and always. May our Great God, Lord Jesus Christ, be with you all as we sojourn together waiting for that blessed hope, even His soon appearing!

Trust in the LORD with all thine heart;
and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge him,
and he shall direct thy paths.
Keep thy heart with all diligence;
for out of it are the issues of life.
Be not wise in thine own eyes:
fear the Lord,
and depart from evil.
Thus saith the LORD;

Cursed be the man that trusteth in man,
and maketh flesh his arm,
and whose heart departeth from the LORD.
Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD,
and whose hope the LORD is.

 

[distracted]

When I came to believe that once I was saved I will always be saved - I was in tears of joy. Oh, what a burden that was lifted off my shoulders on that day!

I don’t mean to be a wise-- but it may come back on your shoulders in the next life… I mean, you are a sinner and you are - if you live much longer - going to commit many sins. If you ask for forgiveness you are forgiven but you are not as automatically CLEAnSED from the effects of your sin… for example, if you commit the sin of “self-gratification”… that sin causes certain changes to occur in the soul… mind, etc… If you die with that sin on your soul, you would still go to Heaven if you are in God’s good graces (forgiven) but you would have to have the effects of that sin purged off your soul before you could enter Heaven. Heaven is perfect an no imperfect thing can be allowed there. That sin is an abuse of your sexuality (and your spouse’s or future spouse’s also)… it deforms your soul, whether you see the deformation clearly or not… Even lesser sins like disliking someone, harboring a grudge toward him/her… causes a deformation of the soul, even if you never even let the person know about your feelings…
If you were to commit those sins and THEN be baptized/filled with the Holy Spirit, and then Die immediately… you would go directly to Heaven because baptizm washes away all sin… At least i think that is what the Church teaches…

(I’m sure someone out there will be more than happy to correct me if i am wrong ).

 

[Phil12123]

So…it is ok to lie to the HS, and one can still spend eternity in heaven with the HS?

Does not scripture also say that the wages of sin is death? Do you really believe that a person can be greedy, deceitful, dishonest etc. and still be in heaven? It boggles the mind! Nothing unclean can enter heaven.

**Did I say that it’s OK to lie to the HS? Did I say anyone who is greedy, deceitful, dishonest etc. will go to heaven?

You are correct that nothing unclean can enter heaven but how, when, and where is that done? In purging fires of purgatory with the sinner suffering and making atonement for his own soul? Not hardly. If it is not the blood of Christ cleansing the soul, there is no cleansing. So, when and how does that occur? If it does not occur before death, it does not occur.

My understanding of the Catholic view (correct me if I’m wrong) is that it occurs at baptism for all sin and sins existing at that time, and at confession and priestly absolution for all sins committed thereafter. So, at the moment of death, if there are any unconfessed sins that have not been absolved by a priest, and any of those are mortal sins, the soul goes directly to hell without exception. If there is no priest to perform “last rites” or hear a final confession, the soul is doomed for eternity.

At this point I’m wondering how the one thief ever got into paradise. The closest he came to a confession was his acknowledgement that he and the other thief were getting what they deserved (“the due reward for our deeds”) without any recitation of what those deeds were. Maybe he had a baptism of desire and confession of desire and sinner’s prayer of desire. But then I guess Peter never confessed either after denying the Lord with cursing. Satan surely filled HIS heart to lie to the HS that he never knew Jesus, didn’t he?

IMHO, cleansing occurs at the moment a person repents and places his complete faith and trust in Christ and His Work of redemption at Calvary and His resurrection. At that moment, he becomes a child of God, receives eternal life and shall never perish. Jesus becomes his Advocate with the Father for the intercession he will need because of sin which will still occur, hopefully less and less frequently as he is conformed into the image of the Son. But it WILL occur and for that Christ need not die again for any new sins. He died ONCE for ALL. And by His ONE offering, He has PERFECTED FOREVER those being sanctified (Heb. 10:14).

Your view is that people must deserve heaven. Ananias did not deserve heaven because he lied, right? He sinned, right? Therefore, he did not deserve to go to heaven. He was not clean in your way of thinking. Though a believer for whom Christ died, he should not go to heaven, because that sin, though died for, was not confessed to a priest, or to Peter, before he died. Sorry, but that boggles MY mind. You do not understand grace, which is UNdeserved love and kindness of God, and you do not understand the GIFT of eternal life, something NO ONE deserves. You quote the first part of Rom 6:23 but ignore the last part. And my guess is that with your mindset, you will never accept His GIFT as purely a gift. You will always be doing something, performing some rite, obeying some rule, to satisfy yourself that you deserve it, or if not, that you will get it after suffering for your own sins in purgatory, being your own savior.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but it needs to be said, and I hope you receive it in the spirit of how it is intended, namely, to help you see how your mindset has taken glory away from the Savior and put it on your own works/efforts to get to heaven.**

 

[Fisher]

I don’t mean to be a wise-- but it may come back on your shoulders in the next life… I mean, you are a sinner and you are - if you live much longer - going to commit many sins. If you ask for forgiveness you are forgiven but you are not as automatically CLEAnSED from the effects of your sin… for example, if you commit the sin of “self-gratification”… that sin causes certain changes to occur in the soul… mind, etc… If you die with that sin on your soul, you would still go to Heaven if you are in God’s good graces (forgiven) but you would have to have the effects of that sin purged off your soul before you could enter Heaven. Heaven is perfect an no imperfect thing can be allowed there. That sin is an abuse of your sexuality (and your spouse’s or future spouse’s also)… it deforms your soul, whether you see the deformation clearly or not… Even lesser sins like disliking someone, harboring a grudge toward him/her… causes a deformation of the soul, even if you never even let the person know about your feelings…
If you were to commit those sins and THEN be baptized/filled with the Holy Spirit, and then Die immediately… you would go directly to Heaven because baptizm washes away all sin… At least i think that is what the Church teaches…

(I’m sure someone out there will be more than happy to correct me if i am wrong ).

001:001 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
001:002 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
001:003 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

 

[distracted]

You are correct that nothing unclean can enter heaven but how, when, and where is that done? In purging fires of purgatory with the sinner suffering and making atonement for his own soul? Not hardly. How do you know?? The Scriptures say otherwise… (1 Cor 3:13, st. Matthew 18:23, etc…).

If it is not the blood of Christ cleansing the soul, there is no cleansing.

 

[Phil12123]

Me: You are correct that nothing unclean can enter heaven but how, when, and where is that done? In purging fires of purgatory with the sinner suffering and making atonement for his own soul? Not hardly.

How do you know?? The Scriptures say otherwise… (1 Cor 3:13, st. Matthew 18:23, etc…).

"The Scriptures say otherwise" ??? Not those Scriptures. Got any others?

Me: If it is not the blood of Christ cleansing the soul, there is no cleansing.

True… and it is the fire of Jesus’ Truth that cleanses a soul in Purgatory…

NO, only His blood cleanses and it is NOT in purgatory, which does not exist.

Me: If it does not occur before death, it does not occur.

then you could be in some big trouble… because you are as much a sinner as anyone else and sinners cannot go directly into Heaven without being purged…

You are right, I am as much a sinner as anyone else… except my sin has been cleansed (past tense) by the Blood of Christ. It has already been purged, so I don’t need a purgatory.

**Heb. 1:

1. God, who at various times and in different ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets.
2. has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
3. who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,**

That’s past tense… He by Himself purged our sins and then sat down at the right hand of God. He rested from His Work of redemption, sitting down. It has already been done, past tense. So, the moment I repent and believe the Gospel, that purging applies to me, and it is a done deal. I have His gift of eternal life and shall never perish (John 10:28). THAT is what the Scriptures say, not some hokum about purgatory.

Do you think God is so unmercificul that he would send someone to Hell just because he had not yet worked out his “salvation with fear and trembling” yet? (sufficiently?) (Philippians 2;12)

Assuming i am intrepeting what you say correctly, this is not what the Church teaches. Yes, at Baptism, all sins that went b4 are washed away… After Baptism, there is confession to do that, but not for every sin that is committed AFTER confession… Every time a Catholic sins (mortal), he must go to confession. Where do you get this?? The Church teaches that confession to a priest is the way Christ established for us to be absolved… But it is not the only way. God cannot (literally ) be put into a box (confessional)… He can and does forgive and absolve in other ways…

**What “other ways”? Can you show me the source, with citation, that would say that? Are you giving your personal opinion, or official Catholic teaching? Are you not taught that forgiveness comes only through confession and priestly absolution? Is there a “confession of desire” for those who don’t make it to the priest before dying with mortal sins on their soul? What section of the Catechism are you reading? Where does it say that a sinner may confess directly to God and receive forgiveness directly from HIM, if no priest is available?

CCC, Section 1456 says,** "Confession to a priest is an essential part of the sacrament of Penance: "All mortal sins of which penitents after a diligent self-examination are conscious must be recounted by them in confession…"

Me: If there is no priest to perform “last rites” or hear a final confession, the soul is doomed for eternity.

Again, totally un-true… If a person dies unrepentent of the mortal sin, he goes to Hell… but if he says to God he is sorry, he will go to Purgatory and then to Heaven…

Again, is this your personal opinion or official Catholic teaching? Citations to the CCC, please.

Me: Peter never confessed either after denying the Lord with cursing. Satan surely filled HIS heart to lie to the HS that he never knew Jesus, didn’t he?

Peter was not then filled with the Holy Spirit… He received the baptism of the Holy Spirit after Jesus ascended… and Satan didn’t fill his heart at all… he was just a coward… like all of us humans are… (a sinner)…

**Well, I don’t mean to quibble, but compare the two lies:

Peter — Mark 14:71.** **He began to curse and to swear, “I do not know this man about whom you are talking.” ** **That’s his third denial; you can read about the other two.

Ananias — Acts 5. His lie, if he spoke it, is not recorded, but would have been to the effect, This is what I got for the land I sold.

If Satan “filled Ananias’ heart to lie” about that money for land, how can you say Satan did not fill Peter’s heart to lie and curse and deny he ever knew Jesus? Sure he was a coward, like all of us, but the father of lies, Satan, was also in play there, IMHO.**

What does IMHO mean??

IMHO = In My Humble Opinion.

 

[Phil12123]

Me: cleansing occurs at the moment a person repents and places his complete faith and trust in Christ and His Work of redemption at Calvary and His resurrection. At that moment, he becomes a child of God, receives eternal life and shall never perish.

That is not what the Bible says…Have you read the New Testament??

Yes. Have you read it? More importantly, do you believe it, like the following, concerning when a person becomes a child of God:

**John 1:
11. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
12. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name:
13. who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Galatians 3:26 — For through faith you are all children of God in Christ Jesus.**

When do we receive eternal life? Will we thereafter ever perish?

**John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

John 10:28 — I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish. No one can take them out of my hand.**

So, what I stated at the top, is very scriptural. What is your view? When do you think you “have” or possess eternal life? What do you think you have to do to get it?

Catholics do not believe Jesus died or needs to die more than once… We believe, as you say that but i don’t think we believe… (or would not use these words ?) that I don’t have a Bible handy but even if this is the exact wording of a good version of the Bible, you will notice that it uses the words “being sanctified”… If a person could be OSAS, the wording would be something to the effect that he perfected them once and for all forever… no sanctifying needed…

Hebrews 10:14 in several versions:

**For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. (New King James Version)

For by one offering he has made perfect forever those who are being consecrated. (New American Bible, which is Catholic)

For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. (New Revised Standard Version, Catholic edition)

By virtue of that one single offering, he has achieved the eternal perfection of all who are sanctified. (New Jerusalem, Catholic)**

Take your pick. Your point is not well taken in any event. Sanctification is an ongoing process and yet it is also a finished result. We are being made holy every day in our walk. We are also sanctified in the sense of set apart from the world and unto God, which occurred at our justification, when we were made right with God by the cleansing of His blood, received by faith. Actually, the rendering of the verse as “being sanctified” also supports OSAS, because it says we are “perfected forever” even though we are still “being sanctified.” Until we get our new, resurrection bodies with no sin natures, we will need the ongoing sanctification, but we are nevertheless “perfected forever” (past tense) even now before that occurs.

 

[johnnydigit]

“It (Catholicism) is the only thing that frees a man from the degrading slavery of being a child of his age.” - G.K. Chesteron

 

[jcoldc]

Me: **

**What “other ways”? Can you show me the source, with citation, that would say that? Are you giving your personal opinion, or official Catholic teaching? Are you not taught that forgiveness comes only through confession and priestly absolution? Is there a “confession of desire” for those who don’t make it to the priest before dying with mortal sins on their soul? What section of the Catechism are you reading? Where does it say that a sinner may confess directly to God and receive forgiveness directly from HIM, if no priest is available?

CCC, Section 1456 says,**** "Confession to a priest is an essential part of the sacrament of Penance: “All mortal sins of which penitents after a diligent self-examination are conscious must be recounted by them in confession…”

Me: If there is no priest to perform “last rites” or hear a final confession, the soul is doomed for eternity.

Boy Phil, I love how you complain that no one answers your questions, but apparently don’t bother to read when someone does; because I already answered this.

However, since you have easy access to the CCC, try looking up section 1452, just 4 paragraphs before the quote you picked out.

“When it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called “perfect” (contrition of charity). Such contrition remits venial sins; it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible.”

So that means if there is no priest, sins are forgiven if you repent. (And a personal aside, of mine, if you are sorry and love God, he will give you the clarity to make that perfect contrition if necessary. But that’s just me.)

Maybe instead of simply jumping into the doctrine of our faith, to pick out “our own words” to use as ammunition against us, you can show yourself more credibility and charity by studying the big picture.

I’m sorry if I’m wrong, but it seems to me, you are not trying to point out what you think is the"truth" or to “set us straight.” Rather, it comes across like you are simply trying to extrapolate small sections and twist or derive your own meanings, just so you can make it fit into your point of view, or tick off Catholics.

 

[JRKH]

Boy Phil, I love how you complain that no one answers your questions, but apparently don’t bother to read when someone does; because I already answered this.

However, since you have easy access to the CCC, try looking up section 1452, just 4 paragraphs before the quote you picked out.

“When it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called “perfect” (contrition of charity). Such contrition remits venial sins; it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible.”

So that means if there is no priest, sins are forgiven if you repent. (And a personal aside, of mine, if you are sorry and love God, he will give you the clarity to make that perfect contrition if necessary. But that’s just me.)

**Maybe instead of simply jumping into the doctrine of our faith, to pick out “our own words” to use as ammunition against us, you can show yourself more credibility and charity by studying the big picture.

I’m sorry if I’m wrong, but it seems to me, you are not trying to point out what you think is the"truth" or to “set us straight.” Rather, it comes across like you are simply trying to extrapolate small sections and twist or derive your own meanings, just so you can make it fit into your point of view, or tick off Catholics**.

I’m finding this to be a problem with many Protestants. I think it comes from the many centuries of “Cherry-Picking” verses to fit a theology or situation.
They look at the CCC and see those numbers and think thay can do the same thing.
It is a fundamental difference between Catholics and Protestants in that Catholics (at least this one) try to look at Bible teachings in a wholistic way. It’s easier for us since the Holy Catholic Church has the history and Traditon and Teaching authority of the Magesterium. Protestants have only the Bible and so need to pick that book to pieces for they have no other resource.

Peace
James

 

[guanophore]

** Did I say that it’s OK to lie to the HS? Did I say anyone** who is greedy, deceitful, dishonest etc. will go to heaven?

It seemed like you were saying that, once a person asked Jesus into their heart, nothing could keep them out of heaven after that.

** You are correct that nothing unclean can enter heaven but how, when, and where is that done? In purging fires of purgatory with the sinner suffering and making atonement for his own soul? Not hardly. If it is not the blood of Christ cleansing the soul, there is no cleansing. So, when and how does that occur? If it does not occur before death, it does not occur. **

Actually, Jesus has already made perfect atonement for our souls. I agree, Jesus’ blood does all the cleansing, now, and later. However, some people do die before the temporal effects of sins are gone. We are not all “perfect” at the moment of death. To the extent that we are still attached to sin, or “muddy” from the world, we need purification.

Mark 9:49-50
49 For every one will be salted with fire.

1 Cor 3:12-15
13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

These don’t sound to me like references to the present life.

** My understanding of the Catholic view (correct me if I’m wrong) is that it occurs at baptism for all sin and sins existing at that time, and at confession and priestly absolution for all sins committed thereafter. So, at the moment of death, if there are any unconfessed sins that have not been absolved by a priest, and any of those are mortal sins, the soul goes directly to hell without exception. If there is no priest to perform “last rites” or hear a final confession, the soul is doomed for eternity. **

No, it is possible to make a perfect confession without a priest. It is just easier and more convenient with one!

** At this point I’m wondering how the one thief ever got into paradise. The closest he came to a confession was his acknowledgement that he and the other thief were getting what they deserved (“the due reward for our deeds”) without any recitation of what those deeds were. Maybe he had a baptism of desire and confession of desire and sinner’s prayer of desire.**

Don’t you consider what he said to be a profession of faith? Obviously Jesus knew his heart, and knew that he believed. His faith saved him. However, it is clear that Jesus did not take the thief with him when He gave up His spirit. Instead, he let him hang there on the cross until the bitter end. He still suffered some of the temporal punishment for sins (due reward for his deeds). This is what the Church teaches about forgiveness and purgatory. Some are purged here, with suffering. Some are purged before they pass the pearly gates, but all get salted with fire (all the saved, that is).

** But then I guess Peter never confessed either after denying the Lord with cursing. Satan surely filled HIS heart to lie to the HS that he never knew Jesus, didn’t he?**

Jesus provided Peter with his personal confession,and gave him three opportunities to affirm his faith in Him, to offset the three times he denied HIm. After he was restored, Jesus commissioned him with the care and feeding of the sheep.

**
IMHO, cleansing occurs at the moment a person repents and places his complete faith and trust in Christ and His Work of redemption at Calvary and His resurrection. At that moment, he becomes a child of God, receives eternal life and shall never perish. **

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. In my view it is not so humble. Your posts seem to contain a mocking attitude which betrays your belief that Catholic doctrine is preposterous. The Apostles taught that we enter the Kingdom through baptism, and this is the first act of faith. Baptism is the means by which the cleansing power of Jesus’ blood is applied to the believer.

 

[guanophore]

** Jesus becomes his Advocate with the Father for the intercession he will need because of sin which will still occur, hopefully less and less frequently as he is conformed into the image of the Son. But it WILL occur and for that Christ need not die again for any new sins. He died ONCE for ALL. And by His ONE offering, He has PERFECTED FOREVER those being sanctified (Heb. 10:14).
**

This is very Catholic of you to say!

** Your view is that people must deserve heaven. Ananias did not deserve heaven because he lied, right? He sinned, right? Therefore, he did not deserve to go to heaven. He was not clean in your way of thinking. Though a believer for whom Christ died, he should not go to heaven, because that sin, though died for, was not confessed to a priest, or to Peter, before** he died. Sorry, but that boggles MY mind.

I am not in a position to pronounce judgement on Ananias, or anyonen else. However, it seems clear to me that sin separates people from God, and that one should not assume that lying to the HS will be excused. God is merciful, and only He can judge the hearts of men. Why do you think that story was included in the Scripture? I do think that it is the responsibility of men to bear fruit that befits repentence, and not presume upon the grace of God.

Rom 2:5-11
6 For he will render to every man according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality.

** You do not understand grace, which is UNdeserved love and kindness of God, and you do not understand the GIFT of eternal life, something NO ONE deserves. You quote the first part of Rom 6:23 but ignore the last part. **

This seems presumptuous of you to say about anyone. Of course one can never merit the great salvation that is ours in Christ. No one will ever “deserve” to be saved. However, I do not believe in “cheap grace”. Those who have received the gift of eternal life in Christ that was prepared for us before the foundation of the world ought to fulfill the works of righteousness that glorify Him.

** And my guess is that with your mindset, you will never accept His GIFT as purely a gift. You will always be doing something, performing some rite, obeying some rule, to satisfy yourself that you deserve it, or if not, that you will get it after suffering for your own sins in purgatory, being your own savior.**

This is also quite presumptuous to say, since you really don’t know my mindset at all! Yes, I will always be doing something, as long as I have the ability to do, but performing sacred works is not about satisfying oneself, but satisfying God. Such works are pleasing in His sight. I do suffer for my own sins, in the present, and I also hope to be salted with fire. I hope that when my works are tested by fire, that many of them will remain, as pure works of righteousness, created in Christ.

** Sorry if that sounds harsh, but it needs to be said, and I hope you receive it in the spirit of how it is intended, namely, to help you see how your mindset has taken glory away from the Savior and put it on your own works/efforts to get to heaven.**

It does sound harsh, but it makes it clear that you do not understand the role of sacred works. it is ok. I used to be of the same mind.

 

[guanophore]

** His blood cleanses and it is NOT in purgatory, which does not exist.**

Well, we see it differently, I guess.

** You are right, I am as much a sinner as anyone else… except my sin has been cleansed (past tense) by the Blood of Christ. It has already been purged, so I don’t need a purgatory.**

Sometimes people forget that they were cleansed, and they fall away from grace. They behave as though they were never cleansed, or worse. That is why Scripture says that, in such a case, there remains no sacrifice for sins.

Heb. 1: He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

How come the sins of the whole world are not purged?

That’s past tense… He by Himself purged our sins and then sat down at the right hand of God. He rested from His Work of redemption, sitting down. It has already been done, past tense. So, the moment I repent and believe the Gospel, that purging applies to me, and it is a done deal. I have His gift of eternal life and shall never perish (John 10:28). THAT is what the Scriptures say, not some hokum about purgatory.

Jesus completed His work. As He said on the cross “it is finished”. It is we who have not completed ours. Have you already been salted with fire? Have your deeds been tested in fire? Even the ones you have not yet completed?

** What “other ways”? Can you show me the source, with citation, that would say that? Are you giving your personal opinion, or official Catholic teaching? Are you not taught that forgiveness comes only through confession and priestly absolution? **

There are many ways to cover sins. Confession is the normative means for mortal sins. But, here is an example:

" My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

Do we imagine that sin can be covered by anything but the blood of Christ? Surely not! Whose soul was saved from death? The one who wandered, surely. How come he was in danger of death if he was OSAS? Whose multitude of sins is covered, the one who wandered, or the one who brought him back? Both?
Phil12123;3661814:

**
Is there a “confession of desire” for those who don’t make it to the priest before dying with mortal sins on their soul? What section of the Catechism are you reading? Where does it say that a sinner may confess directly to God and receive forgiveness directly from HIM, if no priest is available?**

Sacraments are Jesus’ gifts to us, as the normative means through which His grace is accessed. He is not bound by them. He can forgive whoever He wants, however He decides! But, those who go to confession are confessing directly to God. The priest is there in the person of Christ, and is authorized to say those wonderful words we all need to hear so often “you sins are forgiven, go in peace”. I think it is impossible to express to someone the great freedom and liberty found in this sacrament to those who are so hard of heart as yourself.

**
CCC, Section 1456 says,**

"Confession to a priest is an essential part of the sacrament of Penance: “All mortal sins of which penitents after a diligent self-examination are conscious must be recounted by them in confession…”

Me: If there is no priest to perform “last rites” or hear a final confession, the soul is doomed for eternity.

No, you have misunderstood the passage. It is saying what constitutes the valid sacrament of confession. God is not bound by this. Self examination and confession are essential for the sacrament. This is why Catholics do not understand how some Christians dispense with the forgiveness of sin passages in the great commission. We can’t figure out how the Apostles were going to forgive sins that they had not heard!

**
If Satan “filled Ananias’ heart to lie” about that money for land, how can you say Satan did not fill Peter’s heart to lie and curse and deny he ever knew Jesus? Sure he was a coward, like all of us, but the father of lies, Satan, was also in play there, IMHO.**

Yes, Peter fell from a state of grace, and had to be restored by Christ.

 

[guanophore]

** More importantly, do you believe** it, like the following, concerning when a person becomes a child of God:

John 1:
11. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
12. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name:
13. who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Yes, Catholics believe that this refers to the spiritual birth that occurs with the HS and water, in baptism. We believe that we are born from above, and transferred from the Kingdom of darkness into the Kingdom of light.
Phil12123;3662022:

** Galatians 3:26 — For through faith**

you are all children of God in Christ Jesus.

When do we receive eternal life? Will we thereafter ever perish?

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

John 10:28 — I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish. No one can take them out of my hand.

So, what I stated at the top, is very scriptural. What is your view? When do you think you “have” or possess eternal life? What do you think you have to do to get it?

Eternal life can be thought of as a river that is always flowing. We enter into it at baptism. We can get out of the river, and walk away from our inheritance. We can wander from the truth, but return, and get back into the water. If one is not in the water at death,then one is separated from eternal life.

** Hebrews 10:14 in several versions:

**For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. (New King James Version)

For by one offering he has made perfect forever those who are being consecrated. (New American Bible, which is Catholic)

For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. (New Revised Standard Version, Catholic edition)

By virtue of that one single offering, he has achieved the eternal perfection of all who are sanctified. (New Jerusalem, Catholic)

Take your pick. Your point is not well taken in any event. Sanctification is an ongoing process and yet it is also a finished result. We are being made holy every day in our walk. We are also sanctified in the sense of set apart from the world and unto God, which occurred at our justification, when we were made right with God by the cleansing of His blood, received by faith. ****

Yes, this is very Catholic.

“Take care, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. 13 But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we share in Christ, if only we hold our first confidence firm to the end…” Heb 3:12-14

It is possible to be hardened against God by the deceitfulness of sin. We will only share in Christ if we hold our first confidence in Him.

** Actually, the rendering of the verse as “being sanctified” also supports OSAS, because it says we are “perfected forever” even though we are still “being sanctified.” Until we get our new, resurrection bodies with no sin natures, we will need the ongoing sanctification, but we are nevertheless “perfected forever” (past tense) even now before that occurs.**

This is the same book that speaks of apostasy, which cannot happen unless one is a partaker of the divine gifts in the first place. Jesus will not let anyone fall from His hand, or be snatched, but people can, and do, jump out.

 

[wisdomseeker]

**Originally Posted by Phil12123
** Hebrews 10:14 in several versions:

For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. (New King James Version)

For by one offering he has made perfect forever those who are being consecrated. (New American Bible, which is Catholic)

For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. (New Revised Standard Version, Catholic edition)

By virtue of that one single offering, he has achieved the eternal perfection of all who are sanctified. (New Jerusalem, Catholic)

Take your pick. Your point is not well taken in any event. Sanctification is an ongoing process and yet it is also a finished result. We are being made holy every day in our walk. We are also sanctified in the sense of set apart from the world and unto God, which occurred at our justification, when we were made right with God by the cleansing of His blood, received by faith. **

i dont understand your point here. this is only one small part of the acomplishments of Jesus. it did not end there
there is more writings. keep reading it.

obviously you cannot be sure of being sanctified here. because you dont even know if you are in the right church.

you cannot prove historically that your church is the apostolic church, can you? this is very important since if you are disobedient to the Church found by Christ you cannot possibly be sure of anything else.

it seems to me you trying to prove that people are completely vegetables. dont need to do nothing. just sit tight and wait for Jesus to come back.

why do you think the apostles had to die, if Jesus had already done everything that we needed? all they had to do was sit and relax, according to what you believe.

for this to be true, we have to say that God has not given man free will.

God did not have to send His Son to die, God could have done all by Himself. all He had to do is one day come down and pick just anybody He wanted to. since according to you we have no participation on God’s works whatsoever.

did you ever read in the Bible that faith without works is that?

1 Cor 10:12,[SIGN] “Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.”[/SIGN]**

 

[Phil12123]

Actually, Jesus has already made perfect atonement for our souls. I agree, Jesus’ blood does all the cleansing, now, and later. However, some people do die before the temporal effects of sins are gone. We are not all “perfect” at the moment of death. To the extent that we are still attached to sin, or “muddy” from the world, we need purification.

**Our standing, in Christ, has us as perfect as He is. He has perfected forever those being sanctified. HE has purged our sins. Please let these things sink deep into your heart and you will not detract from that “perfect atonement for our souls” that we both agree Jesus provides. His cleansing Blood has power to remove ALL effects of sin that might otherwise remain after death. When we die, we are “absent from the body” and “present with the Lord.” Not present in some nonexistent place of suffering for our own sins or their “temporal effects.” How can you really believe His atonement is “perfect…for our souls” if those souls are not immediately “present with the Lord” as Paul said they’d be?

May I suggest that your thinking, and mindset, is that we still sin and are never totally sin-free in this life, so you need a purgatory to take care of your sins or their “temporal effects” before you can enter heaven. The problem is you never distinguish between our standing, in Christ, and our walk, which will never be totally sin-free as long as we are in these “wretched” or “miserable” mortal bodies (Rom. 7:24).**

Mark 9:49-50
49 For every one will be salted with fire.

1 Cor 3:12-15
13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

These don’t sound to me like references to the present life.

None of the above supports purgatory. The Mark passage is in the context of all those mentioned in the previous verses who will be in hell, not purgatory. The Corinthian passage is when believers’ works are tested as to their eternal value for purposes of reward or lack of it at the Judgment Seat of Christ. It has nothing to do with sins or “temporal effects” of sin.

Don’t you consider what he said to be a profession of faith? Obviously Jesus knew his heart, and knew that he believed. His faith saved him. However, it is clear that Jesus did not take the thief with him when He gave up His spirit. Instead, he let him hang there on the cross until the bitter end. He still suffered some of the temporal punishment for sins (due reward for his deeds). This is what the Church teaches about forgiveness and purgatory. Some are purged here, with suffering. Some are purged before they pass the pearly gates, but all get salted with fire (all the saved, that is).

**You are correct that what the thief said (“Remember me when you come into your kingdom”) was a profession of faith, and a truly incredible one at that—they are both about to die and he still believes this One dying next to him has or will have a kingdom. And, yes, his faith saved him. And you are also correct that until he died (and no one goes to heaven until they die, right?), he suffered the “due reward for his deeds” i.e., whatever crimes he committed he was paying for them according to the civil authorities. But Jesus said, “*This day *you will be with me in paradise.” So, he died that day and was with Jesus in paradise that day, not after suffering in a nonexistent place called purgatory. There is not even a hint in Jesus’ words that the thief would not go directly to paradise after he died. The soldiers saw Jesus was already dead when they broke the legs of the two dying with Him. That was to speed their death, and obviously for the one thief it accomplished that and he died and was with Jesus in paradise that very day, all without baptism or confession or communion or anything else besides simple faith.

Jesus provided Peter with his personal confession,and gave him three opportunities to affirm his faith in Him, to offset the three times he denied HIm.

Yes, I agree that Peter’s threefold affirmation that he loved Jesus was probably intended by the Lord to “offset the three times he denied Him.” But don’t you find it a little bit odd that we don’t see anywhere recorded Peter’s confession of denial or his request for forgiveness? I don’t want to beat a dead horse or get any further into Peter’s lie that he didn’t even know Jesus. I just mentioned it in the discussion re. Ananias’s lie about the land sale.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. In my view it is not so humble. Your posts seem to contain a mocking attitude which betrays your belief that Catholic doctrine is preposterous. The Apostles taught that we enter the Kingdom through baptism, and this is the first act of faith. Baptism is the means by which the cleansing power of Jesus’ blood is applied to the believer.

No, people enter the kingdom by hearing and believing the Gospel which is the Good News that Jesus died for their sins and rose again. That is when they receive eternal life. Baptism follows to identify them with the body of believers that they are now part of. Faith is the means by which the cleansing power of Jesus’ blood is applied to the newly-repentant believer. “Faith in His blood” is what applies His propitiatory death to the believer (Rom. 3:25).

 

[guanophore]

** Our standing, in Christ, has us as perfect as He is. He has perfected forever those being sanctified. HE has purged our sins. Please let these things sink deep into your heart and you will not detract from that “perfect atonement for our souls” that we both agree Jesus provides. His cleansing Blood has power to remove ALL effects of sin that might otherwise remain after death. **

Yes, our standing in Christ. This is a legal standing, however, and not actual. Christ’s righteousness is imputed to us, and we are justified (legal charges have been dismissed). That does not make us, in fact, pure as He is pure. However, we know that, when we see him, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He really is. I think what you are having trouble understanding with Catholic doctrine here is the difference between the legal and the actual. All sin is washed away in baptism, but baptism does not wash away concupiscense, or the tendency toward sin. This is the condition that Paul writes about in Rom 7. However, this too must go, for we cannot enter heaven with this actual impurity. Yes, Jesus removes all impurities both now, and later, but in the present, we are still being perfected, still being sanctified. Until such time as our actual state is congruent with our legal state (declared righteous).

** When we die, we are “absent from the body” and “present with the Lord.” Not present in some nonexistent place of suffering for our own sins or their “temporal effects.” How can you really believe His atonement is “perfect…for our souls” if those souls are not immediately** “present with the Lord” as Paul said they’d be?

Because Purgatory is considered part of heaven. It is not a "non-existent place) but a state, in which the work that Jesus has begun in our souls in this life, to will and to do His good pleasure, is completed so that we may enjoy the beatific vision forever. Protestants believe in purgatory too, they just don’t call it that. They tend to think if it as an immediate change, whereas Catholics have tended to think of it in “time”.

** May I suggest that your thinking, and mindset, is that we still sin and are never totally sin-free in this life, so you need a purgatory to take care of your sins or their “temporal effects” before you can enter heaven. The problem is you never distinguish between our standing, in Christ, and our walk, which will never be totally sin-free as long as we are in these “wretched” or “miserable” mortal bodies (Rom. 7:24).**

Yes, I do have a mindset tht we still sin, and are never totally sin-free in this life. I believe that, as we walk with the Lord, and He continually changes us from glory into glory day by day that we sin less, and become more like Him in nature (partake of HIs divinity). In fact, ,the whole notion of purgatory is based on the distinction between our state (legal declaration of righteousness) and our inner being not having acquired yet the nature of Christ.

** None of the above supports purgatory. The Mark passage is in the context of all those mentioned in the previous verses who will be in hell, not purgatory. **

Let me get this straight. You believe that Romans says “all have sinned” applies to everyone, but when Jesus says “everyone will be salted with fire” that does NOT apply to everyone?

** The Corinthian passage is when believers’ works are tested as to their eternal value for purposes of reward or lack of it at the Judgment Seat of Christ. It has nothing to do with sins or “temporal effects” of sin.**

I agree with you on the matter of believer’s works. This is what, Catholic theology, has everything to do with sins, and the temporal effects of sins, or on the contrary, sanctity, and the eternal effects of holiness. That is why it has not to do with Christ’s sacrifice, which is perfect. Purgatory has to do with our works, and temporal and eternal effects of those works.

Heb 12:14
14 Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

This has to do with human striving. It is not to be separated from the grace by which we are saved, as no human striving for holiness will avail anyone apart from the saving blood of Christ.