There's no OSAS

[guanophore]

** You are correct that what the thief said (“Remember me when you come into your kingdom”) was a profession of faith, and a truly incredible one at that—they are both about to die and he still believes this One dying next to him has or will have a kingdom. And, yes, his faith saved him. And you are also correct that until he died (and no one goes to heaven until they die, right**?), he suffered the “due reward for his deeds” i.e., whatever crimes he committed he was paying for them according to the civil authorities.

Well, Paul did say that “I know a man in Christ who was caught up into the Third heaven”, which leads one to believe that he made a visit there in a deep state of prayer.

** But Jesus said, "*This day ***

you will be with me in paradise." So, he died *that day *and was with Jesus in paradise that day, not after suffering in a nonexistent place called purgatory.

Again, purgatory is a state, not a physical place. I am not sure about all these references. I can’t say I understand what “third heaven” means. I do not think that “paradise” is the same as heaven, because my understanding is that the gates of heaven had not yet been opened. Jesus went and preached to the souls in “hell”, or the “place”? (state) of those righteous who died in faith, releasing them from captivity. Perhaps I will not be able to do a very good job defending Purgatory. It is a Western construct, and is not thought of this way in the Eastern Churches.

** There is not even a hint in Jesus’ words that the thief would not go directly to paradise after he died. The soldiers saw Jesus was already dead when they broke the legs of the two dying with Him. That was to speed their death, and obviously for the one thief it accomplished that and he died and was with Jesus in paradise that very day**

, all without baptism or confession or communion or anything else besides simple faith.

Baptism, confession, and communion are all about simple faith. Not all of us have the opportunity to suffer and die next to Christ, and mingle our blood with His on calvary. Therefore, He has set up other means by which we may partake of His sufferings, carry our cross, and be united in His death.

** Yes, I agree that Peter’s threefold affirmation that he loved Jesus was probably intended by the Lord to “offset the three times he denied Him.” But don’t you find it a little bit odd that we don’t see anywhere recorded Peter’s confession**

of denial or his request for forgiveness? I don’t want to beat a dead horse or get any further into Peter’s lie that he didn’t even know Jesus. I just mentioned it in the discussion re. Ananias’s lie about the land sale.

No, I don’t find it strange at all, but I don’t expect to find the fullness of our faith in the book, as the Sola Scriptura do. I find much of the Apostolic Faith not spelled out there in the words. I imagine that Peter wept, cried bitter tears, castigated himself, and begged God to forgive him for three days.

** No, people enter the kingdom by hearing and believing the Gospel which is the Good News that Jesus died for their sins and rose again. That is when they receive eternal life. Baptism follows to identify them with the body of believers that they are now part of. Faith is the means by which the cleansing power of Jesus’ blood is applied to the newly-repentant believer. “Faith in His blood” is what applies His propitiatory death to the believer (Rom. 3:25).**

Perhaps this is a topic for another thread. Actually, there have been several recent threads on baptism and we can move this there if you wish. I think you may find that what you have been taught about the meaning of baptism is somewhat lacking. In any case, the Apostles taught that “born from above by water and the spirit” refers to baptism.

I agree, also that faith is the means by which the blood is applied. Catholics express this faith in baptism, as the Apostles taught, not by “the sinners prayer”, which they did not teach.

 

[Phil12123]

Yes, our standing in Christ. This is a legal standing, however, and not actual. Christ’s righteousness is imputed to us, and we are justified (legal charges have been dismissed). That does not make us, in fact, pure as He is pure. However, we know that, when we see him, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He really is. I think what you are having trouble understanding with Catholic doctrine here is the difference between the legal and the actual. All sin is washed away in baptism, but baptism does not wash away concupiscence, or the tendency toward sin. This is the condition that Paul writes about in Rom 7. However, this too must go, for we cannot enter heaven with this actual impurity. Yes, Jesus removes all impurities both now, and later, but in the present, we are still being perfected, still being sanctified. Until such time as our actual state is congruent with our legal state (declared righteous).

To a large extent, I think we’re saying the same thing, just using different words to express it. You say “legal and actual” (which I don’t have a problem with), and I say “standing” and “walk.” You say “concupiscence, or the tendency toward sin” and I would call that the fallen sin nature we all inherited from Adam and which we will never shed until we get our new, resurrection bodies. The latter is really what you also call “original sin” which you believe is washed away by baptism. To clarify for me, can you tell me the difference in your mind between “original sin” that you believe is washed away by baptism and “concupiscence, or the tendency toward sin” that is not?

Me: When we die, we are “absent from the body” and “present with the Lord.” Not present in some nonexistent place of suffering for our own sins or their “temporal effects.” How can you really believe His atonement is “perfect…for our souls” if those souls are not immediately “present with the Lord” as Paul said they’d be?

You:

Because Purgatory is considered part of heaven. It is not a “non-existent place” but a state, in which the work that Jesus has begun in our souls in this life, to will and to do His good pleasure, is completed so that we may enjoy the beatific vision forever. Protestants believe in purgatory too, they just don’t call it that. They tend to think if it as an immediate change, whereas Catholics have tended to think of it in “time”.

No, purgatory is NOT “part of heaven” and not just because it does not exist, but because there is no suffering in heaven, least of which anyone’s suffering to pay for their sins. That was done at Calvary for the believer, or will be done in hell forever for the nonbeliever. Protestants do NOT believe in purgatory because they have accepted Christ’s perfect sacrifice as FULL PAYMENT for their sins with no “taint” or “temporal effect” remaining after death to pay for. HE paid it all. When they die, they are present with the Lord, not in that nonexistent place, and they have shed their mortal bodies and so they no longer have that fallen sin nature. They are disembodied souls/spirits awaiting the resurrection to be reunited with their new bodies, mortal-made-immortal or corruptible-made-incorruptible. Do you see the difference? You think you will suffer to remove some taint, and I believe any taint will be removed by the shedding of this old body. You think the taint is on the soul and I think the taint is with the fallen sin nature in the body which is shed at death. Jesus’ redemption was perfect for my soul, and His blood cleansed it completely. I say it’s that “concupiscence, or the tendency toward sin” that gives us problems during this life but that it exists only in this “wretched” or “miserable” mortal body (Rom. 7:24) which we will no longer have after we die.

Yes, I do have a mindset tht we still sin, and are never totally sin-free in this life. I believe that, as we walk with the Lord, and He continually changes us from glory into glory day by day that we sin less, and become more like Him in nature (partake of HIs divinity). In fact, the whole notion of purgatory is based on the distinction between our state (legal declaration of righteousness) and our inner being not having acquired yet the nature of Christ.

We become partakers of His nature when we receive Christ and He by His Spirit (or the Holy Spirit) comes in to dwell IN us and to seal us until the day of redemption. Paul says we are temples of the Holy Spirit. God lives IN us. That is the way in which we partake of His divine nature. Paul prayed that the Ephesian believers would be “strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith” (Eph. 3:16-17). So we have a war in our members, the flesh against the Spirit. Paul says, "Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish " (Gal. 5:16-17). But when we die and shed this body, we no longer have that “war in the members.” The war is over. We are absent from the body and present with the Lord. Hallelujah!

Let me get this straight. You believe that Romans says “all have sinned” applies to everyone, but when Jesus says “everyone will be salted with fire” that does NOT apply to everyone?

No, the context says otherwise. Who is Paul talking about? and who is Jesus talking about, in context?

 

[JoeyWarren]

Phil12123 quoted: When we die, we are “absent from the body” and "present with the Lord."

Are we not present with the Lord right now? Is not God omnipresent? You seem to be selling God short. Maybe you should acquire a better understanding of the context of that verse…

 

[brkn1]

<Phil 12123 quoted: when we die, we are “absent from the body” and “present with the Lord.”>

Are we not present with the Lord right now? Is not God omnipresent? You seem to be selling God short. Maybe you should acquire a better understanding of the context of that verse…

The verse, before that verse, does a good job of explaining the proper context: “For we walk by faith, not by sight.”

Yes, all three Persons of the Trinity are omnipresent, since the Triune God has that as one of His attributes.
But we are not presently able, in this corrupt mortal body, to physically see and be with Jesus in the same manner as those apostles and disciples could when Jesus came to redeem us.
The Lord Jesus is presently physically in Heaven at the right hand of the Father. The Lord Jesus is in all of His glory right now as He was during the transfiguration. We could not bear or enjoy such a Presence in our corrupt physical bodies, even though an exception seems to have been made for the three apostles.
The overwhelming joy and happiness from such a Presence is reserved for the day when we vacate this corrupt body and go to His Presence in our spirit, later to have a resurrected glorified body also to be included as part of our being in His Glorified Presence.

 

[distracted]

Me: You are correct that nothing unclean can enter heaven but how, when, and where is that done? In purging fires of purgatory with the sinner suffering and making atonement for his own soul? Not hardly.

"The Scriptures say otherwise" ??? Not those Scriptures. Got any others?

I’ve got plenty but if you don’t listen to the ones i gave, i doubt you will pay attention to others…

NO, only His blood cleanses and it is NOT in purgatory, which does not exist.

Hmmm… I would like to know how you can be so sure?

Me: If it does not occur before death, it does not occur.

then i guess God is NOT merciful enough to allow someone to finish “working out his salvation with fear and trembling” i(Philippians 2;12) if, say, he/she gets into a sudden, fatal car accident or wht have you??

I am glad I serve a merciful, loving God…

You are right, I am as much a sinner as anyone else… except my sin has been cleansed (past tense) by the Blood of Christ. It has already been purged, so I don’t need a purgatory.

You are not God and do not know that…

, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

but if a person does not accept thaat purging, it does no good. A person who knows about Christ and waht He did, yet ignores him and goes his own way, doing wahtever… Well, Jesus died for that person also but that person has not accepted the Gift… and Jesus won’t force him to (free will)… Then there are those who have accepted Christ mentally, but not any other way… they say they believe but commit this sin and that… not asking for forgiveness… Then there are those who accept Jesus and live the way He wants (most of the time) but because they are human and weak, they fail… and dirty their souls, albeit unintentionally… without wanting to…

***Again, the analogy of the 3 boys… ***

They are told by their father, to go outside and play, but to stay clean… They go out to play. One is pushed into a huge mud puddle and gets dirty all over… the 2nd accidentally falls into the same puddle. with the same result… the 3rd deliberately defies his father and throws himself into the puddle…They all say they are sorry…

But which one, i ask you (& not rhetorically)… is dirty??

 

[guanophore]

** You say “concupiscence, or the tendency toward sin” and I would call that the fallen sin nature we all inherited from Adam and which we will never shed until we get our new, resurrection bodies. The latter is really what you also call “original sin” which you believe is washed away by baptism. To clarify for me, can you tell me the difference in your mind between “original sin” that you believe is washed away by baptism and “concupiscence, or the tendency toward sin” that is not?**

In baptism we are set free from the slavery to the sin nature. The fleshly nature (concupiscence) remains, but we are enabled to make choices and given the power by the HS not to feed into it, or be ruled by it.

“For freedom Christ has set us free; stand fast therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.” Gal 5:1

** When we die, we are “absent from the body” and “present with the Lord.” Not present in some nonexistent place of suffering for our own sins or their “temporal effects.” How can you really believe His atonement is “perfect…for our souls” if those souls are not immediately “present with the Lord” as Paul said they’d be?**

Those who are holy and pure at the moment of death, as Paul anticipated he would be, are immediately in the presence of God. Some of us are not completely sanctified at death, and are not yet ready to be in the presence of the Lord.

** No, purgatory is NOT “part of heaven” and not just because it does not exist, but because there is no suffering in heaven, least of which anyone’s suffering to pay for their sins. That was done at Calvary for the believer, or will be done in hell forever for the nonbeliever. **

Well, I am not the right person to speak on that point. It might be more accurate to say that no one is purified for heaven who is not destined to go there at death.

Protestants do NOT believe in purgatory because they have accepted Christ’s perfect sacrifice as FULL PAYMENT for their sins with no “taint” or “temporal effect” remaining after death to pay for. HE paid it all. When they die, they are present with the Lord, not in that nonexistent place, and they have shed their mortal bodies and so they no longer have that fallen sin nature.

You are assuming that the sin nature is only in the body, which is not the case. It is the heart and mind, as well as the body that are the source of ungodliness. Yes, Jesus paid it all for us, which is why we are being purified for heaven. If you say you have no sin nature (taint and temporal effects of sin) then you must already be in a state of perfect purity before God.

**
They are disembodied souls/spirits awaiting the resurrection to be reunited with their new bodies, mortal-made-immortal or corruptible-made-incorruptible. Do you see the difference?**

There is no difference between what you have stated here, and Apostolic teaching.

** You think you will suffer to remove some taint, and I believe any taint will be removed by the shedding of this old body. **

Yes, I see a difference here. This makes me curious about how you dispense with Jesus’ words to the contrary.

**
You think the taint is on the soul and I think the taint is with the fallen sin nature in the body which is shed at death.**

It is both.

** Jesus’ redemption was perfect for my soul, and His blood cleansed it completely. I say it’s that “concupiscence, or the tendency toward sin” that gives us problems during this life but that it exists only in this “wretched” or “miserable” mortal body (Rom. 7:24) which we will no longer have after we die.**

Not all desires spring from the flesh nature. Some emanate from the heart of man, and the mind, both of which are still intact when the body is shed.

** We become partakers of His nature when we receive Christ and He by His Spirit (or the Holy Spirit) comes in to dwell IN us and to seal us until the day of redemption. Paul says we are temples of the Holy Spirit. God lives IN us. That is the way in which we partake of His divine nature. Paul prayed that the Ephesian believers would be “strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith” (Eph. 3:16-17). So we have a war in our members, the flesh against the Spirit. Paul says, "Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish " (Gal. 5:16-17). But when we die and shed this body, we no longer have that “war in the members.” The war is over. We are absent from the body and present with the Lord. Hallelujah!**

Well, I agree with all that you have said here. I don’t believe people battle sin anymore in Purgatory, but I may be wrong. It is not a subject that I have studied much about, but it is clear to me that not everyone is perfectly sanctified at the moment of death, and that nothing imperfect can enter heaven. I also believe that God will complete the good work He has begun in each one. Whether that happens in this life, or the next, it will happen.

**
No, the context says otherwise. Who is Paul talking about? and who is Jesus talking about, in context?**

I think you will have to clarify this, because it seems to me that everyone means everyone.

 

[JoeyWarren]

<Phil 12123 quoted: when we die, we are “absent from the body” and “present with the Lord.”>

The verse, before that verse, does a good job of explaining the proper context: “For we walk by faith, not by sight.”

Yes, all three Persons of the Trinity are omnipresent, since the Triune God has that as one of His attributes.
But we are not presently able, in this corrupt mortal body, to physically see and be with Jesus in the same manner as those apostles and disciples could when Jesus came to redeem us.
The Lord Jesus is presently physically in Heaven at the right hand of the Father. The Lord Jesus is in all of His glory right now as He was during the transfiguration. We could not bear or enjoy such a Presence in our corrupt physical bodies, even though an exception seems to have been made for the three apostles.
The overwhelming joy and happiness from such a Presence is reserved for the day when we vacate this corrupt body and go to His Presence in our spirit, later to have a resurrected glorified body also to be included as part of our being in His Glorified Presence.

For many people what the phrase “to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord”, means is that when one dies is immediately with the Lord. However, a careful reading shows that this is not what the passage says. Really, what it says is that “WE ARE WILLING to be absent from the body, AND PRESENT WITH THE LORD”. The phrase “we are willing” shows that the passage states a will, a wish, which is not a wish to die but a wish “to be absent from the body and present with Lord”. Though a full and clear picture of what this phrase means will be possible only after the examination of its context, we can from the outset preclude that it could ever mean that when one dies he is immediately with the Lord for in a case like this, there would be a stark contradiction with I Thessalonians 4:15-17 that says:

“For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those which are asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead in Christ will rise first: Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: AND THUS * we SHALL always be with the Lord.*”

 

[JoeyWarren]

If in II Corinthians 5:6-8 God said that when one dies he is immediately with the Lord, then how could in I Thessalonians 4:17 the same God say that “AND THUS (i.e. by the resurrection, and the changing of the bodies) we SHALL always be with the Lord?” Obviously either the Word is wrong, which is impossible, or the interpretation that is usually given to II Corinthians 5:6-8 is wrong. As we will see by studying the context the later is the case. Thus starting from II Corinthians 4:13 - about fifteen verses earlier - we read:

“We having the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, I believed, and therefore I spoke; we also believe, and therefore speak; Knowing that he who raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.”
What Paul knew by revelation was not that after one dies he continues to live together with the other dead. Instead what he knew and taught was that: "he which RAISER up the Lord Jesus shall RAISE up us also by Jesus, and shall present *us* with you." Paul waited and still waits the resurrection, to be presented, to be together, with those Corinthian believers. The last time he saw them was in the last time he visited Corinth, and the next time he will see them will be when both he and they will be RAISED to meet, together with the alive believers, the Lord in the air. Obviously therefore, the context of our passage is not about death but about its exact opposite: the RESURRECTION of the dead.

 

[brkn1]

If in II Corinthians 5:6-8 God said that when one dies he is immediately with the Lord, then how could in I Thessalonians 4:17 the same God say that “AND THUS (i.e. by the resurrection, and the changing of the bodies) we SHALL always be with the Lord?” Obviously either the Word is wrong, which is impossible, or the interpretation that is usually given to II Corinthians 5:6-8 is wrong. As we will see by studying the context the later is the case. Thus starting from II Corinthians 4:13 - about fifteen verses earlier - we read:

“We having the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, I believed, and therefore I spoke; we also believe, and therefore speak; Knowing that he who raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.”

What Paul knew by revelation was not that after one dies he continues to live together with the other dead. Instead what he knew and taught was that: “he which RAISER up the Lord Jesus shall RAISE up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.” Paul waited and still waits the resurrection, to be presented, to be together, with those Corinthian believers. The last time he saw them was in the last time he visited Corinth, and the next time he will see them will be when both he and they will be RAISED to meet, together with the alive believers, the Lord in the air. Obviously therefore, the context of our passage is not about death but about its exact opposite: the RESURRECTION of the dead.

The “AND THUS” is speaking about the time when our glorified resurrected bodies are also included to be in the presence of the Lord. If we are saved, our spirit, without the physical body, will have already been with the Lord after death, or what Paul said does not make sense in his statement that he preferred to already be with the Lord.

(2 Corinthians 5) is all about us “knowing” already that we will eventually also be given a Heavenly tabernacle (glorified body) after this mortal body is dissolved. This will happen at the day of resurrection, when Jesus comes to judge all.

One of the most important verses in this chapter to prove OSAS is (2 Cor. 5:17) : “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a NEW CREATURE: old things ARE passed away; behold, ALL things ARE BECOME NEW.”

The RCC position is that this new creature goes back and forth from new to old to new etc., or “in Christ” to “out of Christ” etc.
This back & forth condition is not described as being so in Scripture, unless you twist it to fit your program using man’s “wisdom” and traditions, which Jesus rejected the use of for understanding God’s Word.

 

[distracted]

His cleansing Blood has power to remove ALL effects of sin that might otherwise remain after death.

Yes, but not if it is “un-applied”…

When we die, we are “absent from the body” and “present with the Lord.”

Does this mean we are not present with him now?? Even in Purgatory, a person is somewhat “present” with the Lord. In fact, in accounts of Purgatory I’ve read about, souls there feel closer to him, despite the suffering, and would not choose, if givven the chance, to go back to Earth.

… in some nonexistent place of suffering for our own sins or their “temporal effects.” How can you really believe His atonement is “perfect…for our souls” if those souls are not immediately “present with the Lord” as Paul said they’d be?

Again, you assume no such place exists, yet there is no way for you to know… We Catholics know through Scripture and Church teaching, that there is a place of cleansing (total forgiveness, healing) in the afterlife… (St. Matthew 12:32, etc…) Also, I know. in other ways… I love Jesus with all my heart and soul & avoid sin like the plague… yet, when i am in His Presence, I see the true condition of my soul and how far it needs to go to be pure enough for heaven. … which, by the way, is somehitng i do not see very clearly when i am NOT there… which, if nothing else… proves His Presence… (to those who need proof).
which is good reason to go & be with Him as often as poosible…If you never have been there (and what you are saying shows you have not…) then you don’t know Jesus as well as you think you do… I am not saying that to be… whatever… I am saying it only becaue it is true…

The problem is you never distinguish between our standing, in Christ, and our walk, which will never be totally sin-free as long as we are in these “wretched” or “miserable” mortal bodies (Rom. 7:24).

Really, this point is more or less moot… The fact is, sin causes our souls to get dirty… deformed…
When a child is born into the world, it is more or less a blank slate, until it is taught this or that… If the child is taught to hate, he will learn hate… that hate has to be undone… in order to become the innocent child he once was… Jesus tells us to become like little children… He says that of such is the kingdom of Heaaven… It is almost like un-scrambling an egg… :hypno:
that is why Jesus had to come… only Jesus can “unscramble” the effectss of sin… our souls.

**[None of the above supports purgatory.

I get the feeling that, to you, nothing will ever serve to support it… saving Jesus appearing in a cloud of smoke to inform you personally.

.

But Jesus said, "*This day *

**you will be with me in paradise." How do you know that Jesus didn’t pput the emphasis on “this day” (meaning he is telling the theif here and now…)?
Also, paradise is not the highest level of heaven… It may be the highest level of Purgatory… I am not sure anyone knows…

But don’t you find it a little bit odd that we don’t see anywhere recorded Peter’s confession

of denial or his request for forgiveness? In the book of John, it says that there are many things that Jesus did and said and that if all was written down, the world could not hold all the books…
Do you think that all truth (all of Jesus…) can be contained in a booik???

Just because something is not recorded in the Bible (or anywhere for that matter) does not mean it did not happen…

** people enter the kingdom by hearing and believing the Gospel which is the Good News that Jesus died for their sins and rose again. **

**un-true… **people enter Heaven by DOING the Word… obeying Jesus in everything He said… (St. Mark 10:17, st. Matthew 25:31, etc.)…

That is when they receive eternal life. Baptism follows to identify them with the body of believers that they are now part of.

that is not what the bible says. It says “baptism now saves you…” (and you remain saved until you commit a sin…
[/quote]

 

[Fisher]

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: (John 1:12

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (John 5:24

But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me…When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. (John 5:36; 19:30

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (John 6:37

And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. (John 6:39

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (John 10:28

And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. (Acts 13:39

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?..For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:35; 38-39

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; (John 14:16

Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts…In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory…And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. (2 Corinthians 1:21-22; Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30

 

[distracted]

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God,

the power to become does not mean one will USE that power… only that it is given…

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16

Part of believing is doing - those who truly believe do waht He commands…

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (John 5:24

again, believing is obeying… Jesus says that not the hearers of the word are justified, but those who do it… also see st. Matthew 7:23… that’s a scary one…

I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me…When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. (John 5:36; 19:30

Wow… interesting… Even Jesus, apparently, had to do good works… Well, He was God, he didn’t really HAVE to… but He did… interesting… In any case, Jesus doesn’t seem to specify in this passage what “it” is… that is “finished”… but I’m sure what He meant was that the work of redemption (His part) was finished… Now it is up to us to take waht He has given us and apply it to our souls/lives…

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (John 6:37

again, one who comes to Christ will not be rejected… but if the person who has once been with Christ, later rejects Christ, well, that is different… and people reject Christ in many and varied ways… Objectively speaking, many Christians reject christ… because many reject truth… absolute truth… Jesus is Truth Incarnate… Whoever rejects truth rejects Christ…

And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. (John 6:39

This just says that it is god’s will that all stay with Him…

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (John 10:28

this could be referring to Heaven, where no one perishes… but if not… it only means that those who place t hemselves in christ’s care will not be lost… (Sorry, the capital button on this keyboard isn’ working ).

And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. (Acts 13:39

The law of Moses could be referring to kosher laws and thingsl ike that… But again, if not, that doesn’t prove OSAS… It just proves that Jesus is bigger than our sins… and as long as we repent, He will cleanse us & get us into Heaven… usually via Purgatory. According to apparitions of Mary, not many people go directly into Heaven… witout Purgatory 1st.

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?..For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:35; 38-39

there is one thing missing from this list of things that cannot separate us from Christ:

Sin the wages of sin is death.
(separation from God…)

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; (John 14:16

this is the Real Presence of Christ in the Holy roman Catholic Church… You ought to go there… Being w/ Jesus is not the same thing as just knowing about HIm…

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. (2 Corinthians 1:21-22; Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30

He is probably speaking to those who have already converted and are “working out their salvation w/ fear and trembling”… But sin can un-do the seal… Sin ruins everything. That is the whole reason Jesus had to come… and why we ahve to accept Him in every way He asks us to… into our very bodies… (Holy Communion)… (St. John 6:27-54, 1 Cor. 11:23… etc…)

 

[guanophore]

If we are saved, our spirit, without the physical body, will have already been with the Lord after death, or what Paul said does not make sense in his statement that he preferred to already be with the Lord.

You know, I agree with you. This is why it is so puzzling to me when fundamentalists claim that we cannot pray to the “dead”.

One of the most important verses in this chapter to prove OSAS is (2 Cor. 5:17) : “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a NEW CREATURE: old things ARE passed away; behold, ALL things ARE BECOME NEW.”

The RCC position is that this new creature goes back and forth from new to old to new etc., or “in Christ” to “out of Christ” etc.
This back & forth condition is not described as being so in Scripture, unless you twist it to fit your program using man’s “wisdom” and traditions, which Jesus rejected the use of for understanding God’s Word.

No, I don’t think so. Once a person is sealed in baptism, one can never go back to the state they were in before. On can turn their back on their inheritance, but cannot “undo” what God has done. The gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.

If the HS cleans one’s soul, and puts everything in order, and the individual turns again to evil:

“When the unclean spirit has gone out of a man, he passes through waterless places seeking rest, but he finds none. 44 Then he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when he comes he finds it empty, swept, and put in order. 45 Then he goes and brings with him seven other spirits more evil than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first.” Matt 12:43-45

 

[Fisher]

the power to become does not mean one will USE that power… only that it is given… Part of believing is doing - those who truly believe do waht He commands… again, believing is obeying… Jesus says that not the hearers of the word are justified, but those who do it… also see st. Matthew 7:23… that’s a scary one…

Wow… interesting… Even Jesus, apparently, had to do good works… Well, He was God, he didn’t really HAVE to… but He did… interesting… In any case, Jesus doesn’t seem to specify in this passage what “it” is… that is “finished”… but I’m sure what He meant was that the work of redemption (His part) was finished… Now it is up to us to take waht He has given us and apply it to our souls/lives… again, one who comes to Christ will not be rejected… but if the person who has once been with Christ, later rejects Christ, well, that is different… and people reject Christ in many and varied ways… Objectively speaking, many Christians reject christ… because many reject truth… absolute truth… Jesus is Truth Incarnate… Whoever rejects truth rejects Christ… This just says that it is god’s will that all stay with Him…
this could be referring to Heaven, where no one perishes… but if not… it only means that those who place t hemselves in christ’s care will not be lost… (Sorry, the capital button on this keyboard isn’ working ).

The law of Moses could be referring to kosher laws and thingsl ike that… But again, if not, that doesn’t prove OSAS… It just proves that Jesus is bigger than our sins… and as long as we repent, He will cleanse us & get us into Heaven… usually via Purgatory. According to apparitions of Mary, not many people go directly into Heaven… witout Purgatory 1st.

there is one thing missing from this list of things that cannot separate us from Christ:

 

[Fisher]

It is used as an argument that if we know we are “once saved, always saved” that we live just go out and live like the devil. That is not true, not with me anyway and also contrary to many born again saints that know they cannot lose their salvation. When I came to believe that once I was saved I will always be saved - I was in tears of joy. Oh, what a burden that was lifted off my shoulders on that day! Oh, what a joy unspeakable that God put in my heart that day. Oh, how great our salvation is in “Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:” (1 Peter. 1:8 It was just the opposite of what some saved people say and think happens. I then wanted to serve the Lord even more than ever before. It just wasn’t me either, for I have heard many similar testimonies from others as well. Glory to God in the Highest forever and always. May our Great God, Lord Jesus Christ, be with you all as we sojourn together waiting for that blessed hope, even His soon appearing!

 

[brkn1]

So I see that our sin can “unseal” the Holy Spirit’s seal (of God) that He places upon any “temporarily” saved person, according to the RCC.
That would mean we are “unborn-again” as a result.
That would also mean that Paul was wrong when he said in (Romans 8:38,39): 38.“For I’m persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,”
39." Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

The “any other creature” must include ourself from the context of the verses.

If we manage to get “unborn-again” by our sins, we have then managed to thwart what Paul said here, as we lose our position in the Beloved.

“Unsealed”, “unborn-again”, and “temporarily saved” are not in the Bible. The RCC must believe that Paul was incorrectly “persuaded” in these verses.

 

[guanophore]

It is used as an argument that if we know we are “once saved, always saved” that we live just go out and live like the devil. That is not true, not with me anyway and also contrary to many born again saints that know they cannot lose their salvation. When I came to believe that once I was saved I will always be saved - I was in tears of joy. Oh, what a burden that was lifted off my shoulders on that day! Oh, what a joy unspeakable that God put in my heart that day. Oh, how great our salvation is in “Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:” (1 Peter. 1:8 It was just the opposite of what some saved people say and think happens. I then wanted to serve the Lord even more than ever before. It just wasn’t me either, for I have heard many similar testimonies from others as well. Glory to God in the Highest forever and always. May our Great God, Lord Jesus Christ, be with you all as we sojourn together waiting for that blessed hope, even His soon appearing!

This is the same joy that Catholics experience because of our hope and confidence that He will remain with us always. It is He who is at work within us to will and to do His good pleasure.

 

[brkn1]

It is used as an argument that if we know we are “once saved, always saved” that we live just go out and live like the devil. That is not true, not with me anyway and also contrary to many born again saints that know they cannot lose their salvation. When I came to believe that once I was saved I will always be saved - I was in tears of joy. Oh, what a burden that was lifted off my shoulders on that day! Oh, what a joy unspeakable that God put in my heart that day. Oh, how great our salvation is in “Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:” (1 Peter. 1:8 It was just the opposite of what some saved people say and think happens. I then wanted to serve the Lord even more than ever before. It just wasn’t me either, for I have heard many similar testimonies from others as well. Glory to God in the Highest forever and always. May our Great God, Lord Jesus Christ, be with you all as we sojourn together waiting for that blessed hope, even His soon appearing!

Praise our Wonderful God and Saviour! May all seekers find this Joy unspeakable! It is so real that it can not be described to any who have not found it yet. It goes beyond all the emotion and worldly attributes that the world assumes the experience of true salvation must be. Never does the Lord Jesus and the Father become more real to us, than when the Holy Spirit indwells us and makes us able to know and love Him Who loved us before we could ever truly love Him in return! What a Great and Wonderful God is our One and only God! Nothing in this life is worth anything, when compared with our sure hope in being one day fully with Him! We will know Him as He knows us! We must be obedient servants until He comes. There is great joy in simply serving and obeying such a Great and Wonderful God! How much more will our joy be when He comes for us! It will be Joy unspeakable!

 

[guanophore]

So I see that our sin can “unseal” the Holy Spirit’s seal (of God) that He places upon any “temporarily” saved person, according to the RCC.
That would mean we are “unborn-again” as a result.

No, I do not think this is Catholic Teaching. On the contrary, the seal is permanent. That is why the last state of a person is worse than the first. What God has wrought cannot be undone. A son can choose to leave the father’s house, and squander his inheritance, but it does not make him any less a son. He is just a disobedient and lost son.

That would also mean that Paul was wrong when he said in (Romans 8:38,39): 38.“For I’m persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,”
39." Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

The “any other creature” must include ourself from the context of the verses.

Nothing external can. Only we ourselves can cut ourselves off from God.

“Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.” Rom 11:22-23

We can fail to continue in Him. Why are these types of phrases used all thru the NT, if it is not possible to be cut off?

If we manage to get “unborn-again” by our sins, we have then managed to thwart what Paul said here, as we lose our position in the Beloved.

I agree. I do not believe it is possible to be “unborn-again”. The seal upon our souls is permanent. We have been made members of the household of God. People can choose to leave the house, forsake the inheritance, spurn the blood, but one cannot undo what God has done. The land has already drunk the rain.

“For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. 7 For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned.”
Heb 6:4-8

“Unsealed”, “unborn-again”, and “temporarily saved” are not in the Bible. The RCC must believe that Paul was incorrectly “persuaded” in these verses.

No, they are not, and they are also not Catholic teachings. But, for the record, this is not a Roman phenomenon. All of the Apostolic Churches hold the same belief all over the world. The new doctrine of OSAS was unknown for 1500 years.

 

[guanophore]

Praise our Wonderful God and Saviour! May all seekers find this Joy unspeakable! It is so real that it can not be described to any who have not found it yet. It goes beyond all the emotion and worldly attributes that the world assumes the experience of true salvation must be. Never does the Lord Jesus and the Father become more real to us, than when the Holy Spirit indwells us and makes us able to know and love Him Who loved us before we could ever truly love Him in return! What a Great and Wonderful God is our One and only God! Nothing in this life is worth anything, when compared with our sure hope in being one day fully with Him! We will know Him as He knows us! We must be obedient servants until He comes. There is great joy in simply serving and obeying such a Great and Wonderful God! How much more will our joy be when He comes for us! It will be Joy unspeakable!

Amen! this is very Catholic of you to say!