There's no OSAS

[Ronald_E]

Amen! this is very Catholic of you to say!

Sometimes Guanophore I just do not know how you do it with your patience. When I read the same responses over and over again to our Catholic faith I just feel this tremendous resistance and read a hardness in their heart that seems to reject or not even attempt to understand our faith that has been here for 2000 years.
Why do they reject something as beautiful as our Catholic Faith. What is so perverse in Catholicism. I see beauty and they see schism. I see love and they see law. I see freedom and the see enslavement.
I guess it is all in the disposition of the heart.

 

[guanophore]

Sometimes Guanophore I just do not know how you do it with your patience. When I read the same responses over and over again to our Catholic faith I just feel this tremendous resistance and read a hardness in their heart that seems to reject or not even attempt to understand our faith that has been here for 2000 years.
Why do they reject something as beautiful as our Catholic Faith. What is so perverse in Catholicism. I see beauty and they see schism. I see love and they see law. I see freedom and the see enslavement.
I guess it is all in the disposition of the heart.

Yes, I also feel that resistance and hardness of heart. However, there is some reason these people are here on CAF. There must be some unresolved issues to work out. I agree, it is in the disposition of the heart. I also post most for the lurkers, because there are often 10 times the number of people reading the thread than those posting upon it. In fact, most of them are probably Catholic, or lapsed Catholics who have been given these same arguements by evangelicals. I know, because I was once one of those!

" Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain." 1 Cor 15:58

 

[Ronald_E]

Yes, I also feel that resistance and hardness of heart. However, there is some reason these people are here on CAF. There must be some unresolved issues to work out. I agree, it is in the disposition of the heart. I also post most for the lurkers, because there are often 10 times the number of people reading the thread than those posting upon it. In fact, most of them are probably Catholic, or lapsed Catholics who have been given these same arguements by evangelicals. I know, because I was once one of those!

" Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain." 1 Cor 15:58

Thanks for your insight. I never thought of lurkers. I wasn’t even a lurker. I thought Jesus was just one of us but a lot braver and wiser version. However, He showed me I was wrong. I would rather be a prodigal son in order to appreciate what I have been given and never deserved.
Good night and God Bless You and every “lurker” out there.

 

[nsper7]

the power to become does not mean one will USE that power… only that it is given…

Notice what it is discussing: to become ‘sons of God’. Is that interchangable with Salvation? One problem I personally see in Scriptural interpretation is playing loose with words. Jesus promises ‘eternal life’ through faith and eternal rewards through good works.

Part of believing is doing - those who truly believe do waht He commands…

Again, it sounds like you’re playing loose with words again. The Greek word translated as ‘belief’ in John 3:16 is ‘pisteuo’ which does not connote obedience. It connotes trust, acknowledgment and mental assent. And, if you are quoting John 14:15, you it does not discuss believing in Christ, but loving him:

“If you love Me, keep* My commandments.” (John 14:15, NKJV).

Our love for Christ is not connected to Salvation, instead it is God’s love for us. What does John 3:16 convey: God loved, God gave, we (humans) believe, we receive.

In fact, OSAS fits quite well with these verses. Out of His love for us, God gave His only Son. We believe (an act of the will and the intellect) and are Saved. If we are simply obeying God because we fear Hell (which was what, in my opinion, the Catholic position boils down to), then where is the love of God (self-preservation, even unto eternity, is not love of God)? Obedience out of fear will not lead to joy or peace, but to legalism and constantly wondering if one is Saved.

With OSAS, if someone obeys God it is truly out of love. Now, will people abuse this? Yes, but does that mean they are not Saved? After all, don’t people abuse temporal gifts? (I won’t use money as an example because, unlike God’s mercy, a financial gift is quantified…once you ‘spend’ it [whether for good or bad purposes] it is gone)

For example, you have someone who is extremely intelligent (a gift…although we can improve our amount of knowledge). They could use their intelligence for the benefit of others or they could use their intellect purely to increase themselves at the expense of others. Thus, although they abuse that gift, they do not lose it.

Now, with OSAS, what do we say happens to people who abuse God’s grace?

1. Temporal punishment/chastisement (even unto physical death)
2. Loss of eternal rewards/treasures
3. One won’t experience of the fullness of God (including the joy and peace He provides) while on this earth

again, believing is obeying… Jesus says that not the hearers of the word are justified, but those who do it… also see st. Matthew 7:23… that’s a scary one…

Actually, it was St. James who said this and the question comes down to: was he talking about eternal life or not?

Soul Salvation: Saving Your Soul by Doing Good<----Free Grace interpretations of said verses (Make sure you click the link imbedded in the article…it discusses the definition of ‘soul’.

In terms of Matthew 7:23, it seems as though you are ignoring a key word in the verse:

"And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ (NKJV)

He says, “I never knew you.” Thus, is He addressing someone who was Saved and then lost their Salvation or is He addressing someone who was never Saved to begin with? He does not say, “I knew you, but you departed.” It seems that concluding that Jesus was addressing those who were Saved but lost their Salvation ignores Jesus’ plain words.

again, one who comes to Christ will not be rejected… but if the person who has once been with Christ, later rejects Christ, well, that is different… and people reject Christ in many and varied ways… Objectively speaking, many Christians reject christ… because many reject truth… absolute truth… Jesus is Truth Incarnate… Whoever rejects truth rejects Christ…

Huh?!?! Where are you getting all this from in that passage? What is the ‘truth’ that someone is required to believe in order to be Saved?

For an answer, look at Martha’s confession of faith in John 11:27.

This just says that it is god’s will that all stay with Him…

No, it does not say that. It says it is God’s will that Jesus lose none of His people. It takes the actions of the Believer completely out of the picture.

this could be referring to Heaven, where no one perishes… but if not… it only means that those who place t hemselves in christ’s care will not be lost… (Sorry, the capital button on this keyboard isn’ working ).

Then why is ‘give’ in the present tense (in the Greek) and He is talking to people who are alive? It sounds like you just confirmed the OSAS position…they will not be lost.

The law of Moses could be referring to kosher laws and thingsl ike that… But again, if not, that doesn’t prove OSAS… It just proves that Jesus is bigger than our sins… and as long as we repent, He will cleanse us & get us into Heaven… usually via Purgatory. According to apparitions of Mary, not many people go directly into Heaven… witout Purgatory 1st.

Again, you’re reading things into the passage. The law of Moses is the entire law given by God to Moses on Mount Sinai. We can divide the Mosaic Law into ceremonial, civil and moral law components, but it is all the law of Moses.

Repentance is not mentioned in the verse. It says those who believe are justified (both are in the present tense) and will be raised again. Also, Purgatory and OSAS are not necessarily mutually exclusive. After all, those in Purgatory are definitely Saved according to RC dogma.

there is one thing missing from this list of things that cannot separate us from Christ:

Sin
the wages of sin is death.
(separation from God…)

Read the rest of that verse though:

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23, NKJV)

this is the Real Presence of Christ in the Holy roman Catholic Church… You ought to go there… Being w/ Jesus is not the same thing as just knowing about HIm…

Jesus is talking about the Holy Spirit, not Himself (the HS and Jesus are distinct Persons). The Real Presence is that Jesus’ Body and Blood are present in the Eucharist, but notice Jesus says ‘another’ Comforter (thus, not Himself). It seems you are trying to connect to things that are not connected. The Holy Spirit abiding with the Believer and Jesus being present in the Eucharist.

He is probably speaking to those who have already converted and are “working out their salvation w/ fear and trembling”… But sin can un-do the seal… Sin ruins everything. That is the whole reason Jesus had to come… and why we ahve to accept Him in every way He asks us to… into our very bodies… (Holy Communion)… (St. John 6:27-54, 1 Cor. 11:23… etc…)

Reading too much into the passage again. It says you are ‘sealed unto the day of redemption’. It does not list any caveats (such as, unless you sin). Eternal life is connected to belief (Gk. pisteuo), not to Holy Communion and not to ‘accepting Him in every way He asks us to’ (unless by accept, you mean believe that Jesus is who He says He is).

 

[brkn1]

No, I do not think this is Catholic Teaching. On the contrary, the seal is permanent. That is why the last state of a person is worse than the first.

I agree. I do not believe it is possible to be “unborn-again”. The seal upon our souls is permanent. We have been made members of the household of God. People can choose to leave the house, forsake the inheritance, spurn the blood, but one cannot undo what God has done. The land has already drunk the rain.

“For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. 7 For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned.”
Heb 6:4-8

Chapter 6 of Hebrews is not talking about the salvation of a true believer becoming lost. It is talking about the resulting fruit or “things that accompany” salvation.
Those Hebrews that might mistakenly and foolishly “fall away” and return back to the old Judaic system, after having already become eternally saved, will lose all further rewards that they would have gotten if they continued in patience to do the work and “labour of love”, which should naturally follow the receiving of the free gift of eternal salvation.

Many people mistakenly replace the word “repentance” with the word “salvation”, when they try to interpret these verses.

The “foundation of repentance” described in verse 1 and verse 6 must first be used to allow the Holy Spirit to bring an unsaved person to come to the true faith in Jesus Christ, which results in eternal salvation.
The repentance that we later continue in, after already being eternally saved, is part of how the Holy Spirit then continues to change and further sanctify us, as He brings a saved person to full maturity and skill as a “good and faithful servant” of God. Such a person will also become able to use and understand the “strong meat” of God’s Word. See (Hebrews 5:12-14).

A saved person, who later “falls away”, will still be saved “as by fire”, but that person will lose all opportunities to inherit further promises or rewards. See (Hebrews 6:12)

Everything such a saved person did, after falling away, would be rejected by God as bad fruit, and burned up as if it were just “thorns and briers”.
God only wants fruit built on the foundation of salvation in Jesus Christ that is “gold, silver, & precious stones, not wood , hay, and stubble”.

 

[guanophore]

Notice what it is discussing: to become ‘sons of God’. Is that interchangable with Salvation?

This is a very good question, and of course you will get different answers from different factions. Catholics believe that we are “born of God” or “born from above by water and spirit” at baptism. At that time, we are adopted into the family of God, and become heirs of the Kingdom. This is where one enters the path (or as I prefer to think about it) the river of salvation.

“If you love Me, keep* My commandments.” (John 14:15, NKJV).

Our love for Christ is not connected to Salvation, instead it is God’s love for us. What does John 3:16 convey: God loved, God gave, we (humans) believe, we receive.

This is true if one thinks of Salvation as a one time event that happens for all time. That conception, however, is not part of Apostolic Teaching. I agree with you that we love Him because He first loved us.

In fact, OSAS fits quite well with these verses. Out of His love for us, God gave His only Son. We believe (an act of the will and the intellect) and are Saved. If we are simply obeying God because we fear Hell (which was what, in my opinion, the Catholic position boils down to), then where is the love of God (self-preservation, even unto eternity, is not love of God)? Obedience out of fear will not lead to joy or peace, but to legalism and constantly wondering if one is Saved.

Clearly you have a truncated view of Catholicism. The refraint from presumption does not imply worry, or anxiety about one’s salvation.

With OSAS, if someone obeys God it is truly out of love.

Do you think that Catholics do not do this?

Thus, although they abuse that gift, they do not lose it.

This is true, as the gifts and call of God are irrevocable. If a person has strayed from life, he can always return, as life is there waiting for him. As it is written, He knocks at the door.

He says, “I never knew you.” Thus, is He addressing someone who was Saved and then lost their Salvation or is He addressing someone who was never Saved to begin with? He does not say, “I knew you, but you departed.” It seems that concluding that Jesus was addressing those who were Saved but lost their Salvation ignores Jesus’ plain words.

Yes, I agree. However, when one looks at the parable of the seeds, it is clear that three out of the four seeds sprout, and begin to grow. This is the kingdom implanted. Two of the sprouted seeds fail to remain in life, and die. I would say that the ones never known are none of these, but rather, the seed that fails to sprout in the first place.

Huh?!?! Where are you getting all this from in that passage? What is the ‘truth’ that someone is required to believe in order to be Saved?

Since Catholics don’t think of salvation as a single event that occurs once in time for all time, I would say that the Truth that must be believed is Jesus Himself. I do not think it is appropriate to “boil down” His message. He said to the Apostles “teach all that I have commanded”. Why settle for the readers digest version?

For an answer, look at Martha's confession of faith in John 11:27.

nsper7;3673614:

No, it does not say that. It says it is God’s will that Jesus lose none of His people. It takes the actions of the Believer completely out of the picture.

God is able to keep us until the last day. People, however, must need to want to be kept. In his perfect love, God does allow people to walk away from Him.

 It sounds like you just confirmed the OSAS position...they will not be lost.

None of those who remian in Him will be lost. People must make continual choices to remain in Him.

Repentance is not mentioned in the verse. It says those who believe are justified (both are in the present tense) and will be raised again.

Catholics do not derive doctrine from one or two verses of scripture, but from the Teaching of Jesus. Jesus taught that one can be justified in God’s sight, then fall from grace. The end of such a one is to be thrown into the lake of fire.

Reading too much into the passage again. It says you are ‘sealed unto the day of redemption’. It does not list any caveats (such as, unless you sin). Eternal life is connected to belief (Gk. pisteuo), not to Holy Communion and not to ‘accepting Him in every way He asks us to’ (unless by accept

, you mean believe that Jesus is who He says He is).

I agree that what God has sealed cannot be unsealed. But the pistis which leads us into relationship with him will find it’s expression in obedience to Him. All of us agree on that point, I believe.

 

[guanophore]

Chapter 6 of Hebrews is not talking about the salvation of a true believer becoming lost. It is talking about the resulting fruit or “things that accompany” salvation.
Those Hebrews that might mistakenly and foolishly “fall away” and return back to the old Judaic system, after having already become eternally saved, will lose all further rewards that they would have gotten if they continued in patience to do the work and “labour of love”, which should naturally follow the receiving of the free gift of eternal salvation.

I agree that the passage is addressed to Hebrews who fall from grace, and return to the ancient sacrificial system. But the invention of a category called “true believers” is not warranted. There is no distinction in the NT for “true believers” and the “others”. One cannot fall away from something one does not have. The persons to whom this passage is addressed are partakers of divine grace. Jesus makes it clear that people cannot partake until they are included in the Kingdom (born again).

Many people mistakenly replace the word "repentance" with the word "salvation", when they try to interpret these verses.

The “foundation of repentance” described in verse 1 and verse 6 must first be used to allow the Holy Spirit to bring an unsaved person to come to the true faith in Jesus Christ, which results in eternal salvation.

" Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 with instruction about ablutions, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment." Heb 6:1-2

Only initiates were taught the elementary doctrines of Christ. One must be mindful that this passage was written at the time the church was persecuted, and christianity was illegal. The Church admitted no one that was not sponsored by a trusted member of the community. Persons who were receiving instruction (catechumens) were preparing for baptism, or were recently initiated, and were partaking of the mystagogia

Ablution (water baptism) is the initiation rite into the community, and replaces circumcision.

The repentance that we later continue in, after already being eternally saved, is part of how the Holy Spirit then continues to change and further sanctify us, as He brings a saved person to full maturity and skill as a "good and faithful servant" of God. Such a person will also become able to use and understand the "strong meat" of God's Word. See (Hebrews 5:12-14).

A saved person, who later “falls away”, will still be saved “as by fire”, but that person will lose all opportunities to inherit further promises or rewards. See (Hebrews 6:12)

Everything such a saved person did, after falling away, would be rejected by God as bad fruit, and burned up as if it were just “thorns and briers”.
God only wants fruit built on the foundation of salvation in Jesus Christ that is “gold, silver, & precious stones, not wood , hay, and stubble”.

I don’t disagree with your formulaion here of the fruits of those not in a state of grace, but scripture and apostolic teaching is clear that we can be cut off, and we can be thrown into the fire (along with the works).

Names can be blotted out of the book of life.

 

[susant]

I have always heard that only the Baptist believe in OSAS. I am an episcopalian and I don’t believe OSAS. I think we must ask for forgiveness.

 

[rtconstant]

I have always heard that only the Baptist believe in OSAS. I am an episcopalian and I don’t believe OSAS. I think we must ask for forgiveness.

Actually not even all Baptists believe in it (General and Freewill Baptists for example). The concept has its origins in the theology of John Calvin and so denominations that follow his teachings (Sourthern and Independant Baptists, Presbyterians) tend to believe in some form of OSAS though they may disagree on how it works.

 

[SeanTom]

Hebrews 6:4-6: “For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.”

 

[nsper7]

This is a very good question, and of course you will get different answers from different factions. Catholics believe that we are “born of God” or “born from above by water and spirit” at baptism. At that time, we are adopted into the family of God, and become heirs of the Kingdom. This is where one enters the path (or as I prefer to think about it) the river of salvation.

A couple things:

1. Is being adopted into the family of God/inheriting the Kingdom the same as eternal life? Several Free Grace theologians would argue that they are different issues (check out www.faithalone.org)).
2. If one is adopted into the family of God (and we assume that this is a synonym and/or effective metaphor for eternal life), then how can one be un-adopted? On an Earthly level, you cannot really be un-adopted from your temporal family. You can be a disgrace, you can be cut-off finanically and lose an inheritance (compare that to the idea of losing rewards and treasure in Heaven) as well as be seperated from your family (compare that to the concept of losing fellowship with God, which is what OSAS people would say happens when you sin, but are still Saved).

This is true if one thinks of Salvation as a one time event that happens for all time. That conception, however, is not part of Apostolic Teaching. I agree with you that we love Him because He first loved us.

In OSAS circles, Salvation means Saved from Hell (or justification). The general view is that sanctification is being saved from the power of sin (the idea of overcoming sin and being a disciple) and glorification is being saved from the presence of sin (occurs after you die and/or when Jesus returns…whatever comes first). If one is not justified, they go to Hell. If one is not sanctified, they will lose rewards and face temporal punishment potentially.

Clearly you have a truncated view of Catholicism. The refraint from presumption does not imply worry, or anxiety about one’s salvation.

Considering that we are talking about the eternal destiny of one’s soul, if one does not have assurance and eternal security, I do not see how they can not be worried or anxious. I am not saying it does not happen, I am just saying I do not understand it.

Do you think that Catholics do not do this?

I never said that. Although, even in Roman Catholicism, there is the differentiation between imperfect contrition (based on fear of Hell or some other punishment) and perfect contrition (based on love of God).

This is true, as the gifts and call of God are irrevocable. If a person has strayed from life, he can always return, as life is there waiting for him. As it is written, He knocks at the door.

If someone ‘strays from life’ (I assume by this you mean they have strayed from Christ’s commandments), have they lost Salvation (eternal life) or have they, instead, lost fellowship with God and eternal rewards and such?

Yes, I agree. However, when one looks at the parable of the seeds, it is clear that three out of the four seeds sprout, and begin to grow. This is the kingdom implanted. Two of the sprouted seeds fail to remain in life, and die. I would say that the ones never known are none of these, but rather, the seed that fails to sprout in the first place.

Do those two sprouted seeds actually die? It is said that the plants that grow in the rocky soil are scorched and that the plants in the thicket are choked off, but whether the seed dies out or not is not really mentioned. We see with plants that, even if the visible part (above ground part) is destroyed or damaged, the root system can still remain strong.

Since Catholics don’t think of salvation as a single event that occurs once in time for all time, I would say that the Truth that must be believed is Jesus Himself. I do not think it is appropriate to “boil down” His message. He said to the Apostles “teach all that I have commanded”. Why settle for the readers digest version?

It is not a question of “boiling down” the message, it is a question of looking at the context. Jesus discusses how to get eternal life, but He also talks about discipleship and other things. When Jesus commands His Apostles to teach all that He has commanded, He tells them to ‘make disciples of all nations’. Discipleship (which is based on our love for God) should come as a response to justification (God’s love for us).

The Parable of the Four Soils
Faith on the Rocks

God is able to keep us until the last day. People, however, must need to want to be kept. In his perfect love, God does allow people to walk away from Him.

I believe someone can walk away from fellowship with God (just as one can walk away from their earthly family…the idea of abiding in Christ, etc.), but they are still Salvifically justified by God. Jesus never discusses the Believer’s desire to be kept/not kept when He discusses how Believers are kept by hand of God, etc.

None of those who remian in Him will be lost. People must make continual choices to remain in Him.

It never discusses a Believer’s choices in determining whether they are kept in Salvation or not. A person can lose their fellowship with God (abiding, etc.), but is this the same as losing Salvation?

Catholics do not derive doctrine from one or two verses of scripture, but from the Teaching of Jesus. Jesus taught that one can be justified in God’s sight, then fall from grace. The end of such a one is to be thrown into the lake of fire.

Where does Scripture say one can be justified and then be un-justified? Certainly, there are verses that may appear to convey this idea, but I believe that on close examination, this is not what they actually convey. Context and linguistics are key.

I agree that what God has sealed cannot be unsealed. But the pistis which leads us into relationship with him will find it’s expression in obedience to Him. All of us agree on that point, I believe.

If one is sealed and cannot be unsealed, then they cannot be unsealed. Belief should, ideally, lead to obedience, but to say that it automatically does so is is a cum hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy (correlation does not imply causation). This would be especially true if one comes to faith through fear of Hell. Remember, the greatest command is to love God. Fear of Hell will probably not (immediately) lead to love for God.

I agree that the passage is addressed to Hebrews who fall from grace, and return to the ancient sacrificial system. But the invention of a category called “true believers” is not warranted. There is no distinction in the NT for “true believers” and the “others”. One cannot fall away from something one does not have. The persons to whom this passage is addressed are partakers of divine grace. Jesus makes it clear that people cannot partake until they are included in the Kingdom (born again).

You just confused me. Are these people Saved (justified) and then fell away? Were they never Saved (justified) to begin with? Or are they still Saved, but they face some kind of temporal punishment and loss of fellowship with God.

" Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 with instruction about ablutions, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment." Heb 6:1-2

Only initiates were taught the elementary doctrines of Christ. One must be mindful that this passage was written at the time the church was persecuted, and christianity was illegal. The Church admitted no one that was not sponsored by a trusted member of the community. Persons who were receiving instruction (catechumens) were preparing for baptism, or were recently initiated, and were partaking of the mystagogia

Ablution (water baptism) is the initiation rite into the community, and replaces circumcision.

What argument are you trying to make here? How does this relate to the issue of Salvation (justification)?

I don’t disagree with your formulaion here of the fruits of those not in a state of grace, but scripture and apostolic teaching is clear that we can be cut off, and we can be thrown into the fire (along with the works).

Where’s the fruit?
Viticulture and John 15:1-6
Believers Who Play With Fire Get Burned: John 15:6

It sounds like you’re taking a literalistic view of the idea of the fire in the parable of the vine and branches (as opposed to viewing the discussion of fire within the parable. Just because ‘fire’ is mentioned does not automatically mean it is talking about 'Hellfire). Hopefully, those articles I linked can provide a good answer.

Names can be blotted out of the book of life.

In those Revelation passages, is He being literalistic a making use of a literary/rhetorical technique (called ‘litotes’)? Remember, Scripture is not a ‘dry scholarly work’, but a work of prose and also that people, even when teaching (unless in a high academic setting, and even then, not always), do not usually speak in a literalistic form (we use metaphors, manners of speech, etc.).

Being Erased From the Book of Life? Revelation 3:5

 

[Mary_C]

We have salvation through the cross, through the death and resurrection of Our Lord Jesus Christ, and it is true that we don’t need to make any other such sacrafices.
However, faith without works is a dead faith! If we were not meant to imitate Christ in everything, then why tell us to do so?
Why should we clothe the naked, or feed the hungry? Why should we give shelter to the homeless, or comfort to the sick? Do you not remember that there will be a judgement day? If all we have to do is claim the sacrafice of Our Lord, and do nothing ourselves, then why would our Lord even bother with judgement day?
There will be many who will dare to claim the blood of the Lamb alone for their salvation with no works to back it up and our Lord said what He will do with these, He will ask why they didn’t do anything for Him and when they try to make out they never saw Him in need, He will deny them and cast them into the fire. The best way to understand what is expected of us is to read revelations.
Also, who do you think we serve when Christians(children of God) fight amongst themselves? When some of us refuse to acknowledge the Christianity in other Christian faiths and spread such biased statements? Do we serve our Father in Heaven when we hurt other Christians or do we lower ourselves to fallen one’s level?
Before any of us go off and say things about any other religions please get all of your facts in order, and not just repeat things you might have heard. Try reading the Cathicism of the Catholic Church, its an eye opener!

 

[guanophore]

A couple things:

1. Is being adopted into the family of God/inheriting the Kingdom the same as eternal life? Several Free Grace theologians would argue that they are different issues (check out www.faithalone.org)).

Since one cannot see the Kingdom unless one is born from above, then yes, I think they are the same.

John 1:11-13
12 But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

This sounds to me like something that is accomplished by God’s grace. When we are born again, we are given the spirit of adoption.

2) If one is adopted into the family of God (and we assume that this is a synonym and/or effective metaphor for eternal life), then how can one be un-adopted? On an Earthly level, you cannot really be un-adopted from your temporal family. You can be a disgrace, you can be cut-off finanically and lose an inheritance (compare that to the idea of losing rewards and treasure in Heaven) as well as be seperated from your family (compare that to the concept of losing fellowship with God, which is what OSAS people would say happens when you sin, but are still Saved).

Yes. I don’t believe it is possible to be “un-adopted”. Scripture is clear that one who spurns the grace of God after having first been enlightened is in a worse state than they were in the beginning.

In OSAS circles, Salvation means Saved from Hell (or justification). The general view is that sanctification is being saved from the power of sin (the idea of overcoming sin and being a disciple) and glorification is being saved from the presence of sin (occurs after you die and/or when Jesus returns…whatever comes first). If one is not justified, they go to Hell. If one is not sanctified, they will lose rewards and face temporal punishment potentially.

This is consistent with Catholic soteriology for the most part.

Considering that we are talking about the eternal destiny of one’s soul, if one does not have assurance and eternal security, I do not see how they can not be worried or anxious. I am not saying it does not happen, I am just saying I do not understand it.

Because hope does not disappoint us. We are also free to focus on manifesting the fruit of our substance in Christ in the here and now, instead of focusing on the future.

If someone ‘strays from life’ (I assume by this you mean they have strayed from Christ’s commandments), have they lost Salvation (eternal life) or have they, instead, lost fellowship with God and eternal rewards and such?

Not so much the commandments as the presence of God. People can wander away from God, be lured away by temptation, be separated by bitterness, and many other things. Jesus is life. To stray from Him is to stray from life. Eternal life begins now (at justification). If one leaves it now, why would one expect to be in it after death? Jesus made it clear that we must remain (abide) in Him.

Do those two sprouted seeds actually die? It is said that the plants that grow in the rocky soil are scorched and that the plants in the thicket are choked off, but whether the seed dies out or not is not really mentioned. We see with plants that, even if the visible part (above ground part) is destroyed or damaged, the root system can still remain strong.

I would not call it “strong” but I think it is possible for these two types of plants to cling to life. Clearly this is not the life that Jesus wants for us.

It is not a question of “boiling down” the message, it is a question of looking at the context. Jesus discusses how to get eternal life, but He also talks about discipleship and other things. When Jesus commands His Apostles to teach all that He has commanded, He tells them to ‘make disciples of all nations’. Discipleship (which is based on our love for God) should come as a response to justification (God’s love for us).

You will get no arguement from me on this point!

I believe someone can walk away from fellowship with God (just as one can walk away from their earthly family…the idea of abiding in Christ, etc.), but they are still Salvifically justified by God. Jesus never discusses the Believer’s desire to be kept/not kept when He discusses how Believers are kept by hand of God, etc.

Sin separates people from God. The wages of sin are death, whether they occur before one prays the sinner;s prayer, or after.

It never discusses a Believer’s choices in determining whether they are kept in Salvation or not. A person can lose their fellowship with God (abiding, etc.), but is this the same as losing Salvation?

I think that depends upon the state of grace. If a person is not in fellowship with God, it is very difficult, if not impossible, to avoid sin.

Where does Scripture say one can be justified and then be un-justified? Certainly, there are verses that may appear to convey this idea, but I believe that on close examination, this is not what they actually convey. Context and linguistics are key.

Justification is a legal declaration. It is like saying the charges are dropped. However, in court, if a case is dismissed, one is “free”. Such a one can go out and commit the same crime again, or a different crime, and end up with another legal charge.

If one is sealed and cannot be unsealed, then they cannot be unsealed. Belief should, ideally, lead to obedience, but to say that it automatically does so is is a cum hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy (correlation does not imply causation). This would be especially true if one comes to faith through fear of Hell. Remember, the greatest command is to love God. Fear of Hell will probably not (immediately) lead to love for God.

Yes.

It sounds like you’re taking a literalistic view of the idea of the fire in the parable of the vine and branches (as opposed to viewing the discussion of fire within the parable. Just because ‘fire’ is mentioned does not automatically mean it is talking about 'Hellfire). Hopefully, those articles I linked can provide a good answer.

I agree about the reference to fire. But, when Jesus talks about branches being cut off, and thrown into the fire, I think He is talking about perdition.

In those Revelation passages, is He being literalistic a making use of a literary/rhetorical technique (called ‘litotes’)? Remember, Scripture is not a ‘dry scholarly work’, but a work of prose and also that people, even when teaching (unless in a high academic setting, and even then, not always), do not usually speak in a literalistic form (we use metaphors, manners of speech, etc.).

Are you saying you think it is not possible for a name to be blotted out of the book of life? Why would Jesus use such a technique? Why do all the other letters contain similar metaphors? Do you think that people who are “spit out” of His mouth are still saved?

 

[nsper7]

We have salvation through the cross, through the death and resurrection of Our Lord Jesus Christ, and it is true that we don’t need to make any other such sacrafices.
However, faith without works is a dead faith! If we were not meant to imitate Christ in everything, then why tell us to do so?

I never said we shouldn’t seek to imitate Christ, what I said was that it is not connected to Salvation. Certainly, every Free Grace theologian would probably agree that a Christian should seek to be a disciple of Christ, but they would say tacking on discipleship to Salvation is:

A) Not Scriptural (obviously, this is debatable)
B) Damages people’s faith

Why should we clothe the naked, or feed the hungry? Why should we give shelter to the homeless, or comfort to the sick? Do you not remember that there will be a judgement day? If all we have to do is claim the sacrafice of Our Lord, and do nothing ourselves, then why would our Lord even bother with judgement day?

Yes, there will be a judgment day. Remember, look at how many people don’t believe in Christ, but he have been exposed to such knowledge. Also, a Believer’s works will be tested (St. Paul makes this very clear in Corinthians) and a person can suffer loss (the stubble and hay that is burned), but NOT loss of Salvation, but instead loss of eternal rewards (that treasure in Heaven). St. Paul even says that those people will be Saved who have nothing to show for it, but they will have nothing to show for it.

There will be many who will dare to claim the blood of the Lamb alone for their salvation with no works to back it up and our Lord said what He will do with these, He will ask why they didn’t do anything for Him and when they try to make out they never saw Him in need, He will deny them and cast them into the fire. The best way to understand what is expected of us is to read revelations.

Actually, He never addresses that issue. I assume you are discussing the Parable of the Goats and the Sheep. Belief is never mentioned in the Parable and the goats, as they’re defense, do not claim faith.

Also, who do you think we serve when Christians(children of God) fight amongst themselves? When some of us refuse to acknowledge the Christianity in other Christian faiths and spread such biased statements? Do we serve our Father in Heaven when we hurt other Christians or do we lower ourselves to fallen one’s level?

1. I don’t consider this a ‘fight’, but a theological discussion/debate.
2. When have I denied that Roman Catholicism is ‘Christian’ or judged someone else’s Salvation?
3. Do we serve our Father in Heaven if we spread an incorrect or confusing message?

Before any of us go off and say things about any other religions please get all of your facts in order, and not just repeat things you might have heard. Try reading the Cathicism of the Catholic Church, its an eye opener!

My response would be: try reading the writings of various Free Grace theologians (www.faithalone.org is a good place to start). Most things are ‘repeating what you have already heard’. I don’t claim to be brilliant enough to come up with my own orginal systematic theology.

Also, I am sorry if I misrepresented Roman Catholic theology. It certainly was not on purpose or with an intent to deceive.

Since one cannot see the Kingdom unless one is born from above, then yes, I think they are the same.

John 1:11-13
12 But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

This sounds to me like something that is accomplished by God’s grace. When we are born again, we are given the spirit of adoption.

Yes. I don’t believe it is possible to be “un-adopted”. Scripture is clear that one who spurns the grace of God after having first been enlightened is in a worse state than they were in the beginning.

It seems contradictory to say that one cannont be “un-adopted” yet then go on and try and show how that can happen. Also, it is interesting that we are using these Hebrews verses.

After all, what is the thing these people are doing that ‘spurns the grace of God’? They are trying to return to Judaic system of sacrifices instead of relying on the completeness of Christ’s sacrifice. In other words, they are adding their own works to Christ’s Work.

Because hope does not disappoint us. We are also free to focus on manifesting the fruit of our substance in Christ in the here and now, instead of focusing on the future.

Possible, but a bit idealistic. Upon considering one’s eternal state and realizing that a bad place awaits those who are not Saved, how can one not concern themselves about this if they have no assurance?

Not so much the commandments as the presence of God. People can wander away from God, be lured away by temptation, be separated by bitterness, and many other things. Jesus is life. To stray from Him is to stray from life. Eternal life begins now (at justification). If one leaves it now, why would one expect to be in it after death? Jesus made it clear that we must remain (abide) in Him.

I have to admit this confuses me a bit and, for me at least, acts as a warning against using too many metaphors and subjective language.

Thus, I am a little confused when you talk about ‘leaving’ eternal life. Eternal life is not something that is described as something that a person can ‘leave’. Also, there is a big difference between our temporal and heavenly existence. On this earth, we are still in the presence of sin and our flesh is still tainted by it. My understanding is that the flesh (the sinful nature) can never be Saved (which is why those who are Saved are promised new bodies in Heaven). The new nature is already Saved.

One either has eternal life or one doesn’t. If one has eternal life, but then loses it, then it wasn’t eternal life.

BTW- be honest, did you read those links I gave you? Those articles address some of the issue you bring up and they do a much better job than I could.

I would not call it “strong” but I think it is possible for these two types of plants to cling to life. Clearly this is not the life that Jesus wants for us.

Poor choice of words on my part. But it does seem like we agree that said persons would be Saved. And I agree with you that this would not be what Jesus wants for us, but, for me at least, this discussion is not about seeking God’s best for us (which is extremely important and something that should definitely be discussed), but about Salvation (specifically justification) and whether OSAS is true or not.

Sin separates people from God. The wages of sin are death, whether they occur before one prays the sinner;s prayer, or after.

I agree that the ‘sinner’s prayer’ does not Save a person. Whether you believe that Jesus is the Messiah and Son of God who died on the cross, paid the penalty for your sins, and was resurrected is what determines whether you have eternal life or not. One could say the ‘sinner’s prayer’ (or any other bit of liturgy) a million times and still not believe what they are saying/reading.

I think that depends upon the state of grace. If a person is not in fellowship with God, it is very difficult, if not impossible, to avoid sin.

What exactly is the ‘state of grace’? Also, I would agree that if someone is not in fellowship with God, they are likely to sin. The question is: are they Saved or not?

Justification is a legal declaration. It is like saying the charges are dropped. However, in court, if a case is dismissed, one is “free”. Such a one can go out and commit the same crime again, or a different crime, and end up with another legal charge.

There is a problem with that metaphor as given. In our temporal existence, if we commit a crime, we are, as soon as we are caught, brought up to be judged. If we commit another crime, then we’ll face another judgment.

But, we face only one judgment to determine whether we are going to Heaven or to Hell. Thus, the question is: will the case be thrown out then?

I agree about the reference to fire. But, when Jesus talks about branches being cut off, and thrown into the fire, I think He is talking about perdition.

Did you read those articles? They explain the issue quite well.

Are you saying you think it is not possible for a name to be blotted out of the book of life? Why would Jesus use such a technique? Why do all the other letters contain similar metaphors? Do you think that people who are “spit out” of His mouth are still saved?

Again, did you read the article I linked?

 

[brkn1]

Since one cannot see the Kingdom unless one is born from above, then yes, I think they are the same.

Yes. I don’t believe it is possible to be “un-adopted”. Scripture is clear that one who spurns the grace of God after having first been enlightened is in a worse state than they were in the beginning.

Not so much the commandments as the presence of God. People can wander away from God, be lured away by temptation, be separated by bitterness, and many other things. Jesus is life. To stray from Him is to stray from life. Eternal life begins now (at justification). If one leaves it now, why would one expect to be in it after death? Jesus made it clear that we must remain (abide) in Him.

I saved this part of your post to make a point.
You seem to agree that after we are first “enlightened”, we become adopted as one of God’s sheep. Jesus even implied this as he told Peter, “Feed my sheep.”

Jesus also referred to Himself as the Good Shepherd.

You say that one of His sheep can still stray from his flock (by free choice) and lose the position of being one of the flock. This is the exact claim of anyone who disagrees with OSAS, whether they try to disguise it or not.

There is a serious problem with the idea of God allowing any of His sheep to wander:

Such a claim of God allowing that, would mean that God was not a “Good Shepherd”, since a Good Shepherd does NOT allow any of His sheep to wander for ANY reason. Jesus said that He would leave the rest to find and bring back that lost sheep, as any Good Shepherd would do. Being God makes that even easier for Jesus.

Your claim that His sheep are allowed to stray is the same as calling God a “liar” about His ability to be a Good Shepherd. We know that God, being all Truth, is no such thing, so that makes you the one spreading false and incorrect statements by your claim.

 

[Fisher]

I wonder how protestants explain this passage:
Mtt 10,22 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
To the end…
Almost 5 centuries of contradicting the Scripture is definitely too much.
God bless.

If only those who endure to the end are truly saved, as is eternal security then how is assurance even possible? The only assurance of persevering is to persevere! What they are attempting to do is keep the believer in a place of doubt so that, motivated by fear, they will do good works. But is this really their aim? Surely we have been freed from sin but there is a huge difference between thinking I am free from sin so therefore I do not sin and being free from sin because I have died to the fact that I do sin. The former is a delusion and the latter the only way to godliness sinful man has ever known for we were crucified with Christ and our sin dealt with by Him who said, “**It is finished!” **Place a man under the principle of law (do this and then I will do that) and you will get nothing but more sin – “for the strength of sin is the law” (1 Cor 15:56). Perhaps it could be said that this is, more accurately, their true goal for false doctrine inevitably begets false practice.

Surely we are to examine ourselves in regard to our Christian walk – our own work – and well may we doubt but never should we question our salvation for that brings His work into question! For a believer to say, “Am I really saved?” is to say, “Did Jesus really die for my sins?”

“From the testimony of Scripture a Christian should know that he is saved . . . Where there is a lack of assurance there is usually an impression that so long as the life is quite imperfect (and how immodest it would be to claim that it is otherwise) it is unreasonable to do any more than hope that through some special exercise of mercy on God’s part it will not be as bad in the end as it might otherwise be. Unwittingly such attitudes of mind disclose the appalling fact that persons who hold such views have never turned from dependence on their own works and merit to a dependence on the all-sufficient work and merit of Christ . . . It is offered to all meritless, helpless sinners who are willing to believe that God has already been good in that He has provided, in Christ, not only what they need now, but all they need in time and for eternity

 

[azjanet]

2 Peter 2:20-21 “For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.”

Hebrews 10:26-30 “For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.”

Galatians 5:19-21 “Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.”

 

[nsper7]

2 Peter 2:20-21 “For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.”

Does Hell Await Those Who Fall? 2 Peter 2:18-22

Hebrews 10:26-30 “For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.”

A Punishment Worse Than Death: Hebrews 10:26-31

Galatians 5:19-21 “Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.”

Christians Who Lose Their Legacy: Galatians 5:21

 

[guanophore]

I saved this part of your post to make a point.

You seem to agree that after we are first “enlightened”, we become adopted as one of God’s sheep. Jesus even implied this as he told Peter, “Feed my sheep.”

Jesus also referred to Himself as the Good Shepherd.

You say that one of His sheep can still stray from his flock (by free choice) and lose the position of being one of the flock. This is the exact claim of anyone who disagrees with OSAS, whether they try to disguise it or not.

There is a serious problem with the idea of God allowing any of His sheep to wander:

Such a claim of God allowing that, would mean that God was not a “Good Shepherd”, since a Good Shepherd does NOT allow any of His sheep to wander for ANY reason. Jesus said that He would leave the rest to find and bring back that lost sheep, as any Good Shepherd would do. Being God makes that even easier for Jesus.

It is not a reflection on the shepherd, any more than the betrayal of Judas is a “bad” reflection on the way Jesus selected the chosen who were to be His Apostles. The good shepherd knows the heart of every one of His sheep. Just as the father in the parable divided the inheritance and gave the younger son his share, our heavenly father allows us to make choices that are against his perfect will. He knows that there will be a time for each one when he will “come to himself and say, I must return to my father”. The Good Shepherd never stops calling and pursuing us.

Your claim that His sheep are allowed to stray is the same as calling God a “liar” about His ability to be a Good Shepherd. We know that God, being all Truth, is no such thing, so that makes you the one spreading false and incorrect statements by your claim.

No, because God never promised that people would not be allowed to “wander off”. In fact, He made provisions for those who wander. God created us in HIs likeness and image, and this means we have free will. Humans have the freedom, given by the creator, to spurn the care of the Good Shepherd, and wander out into the wilderness. This is not some inadvertant type of straying, but a willful disregard for the direction of the shepherd.

James 5:19 - 1 Peter 1:1

19 My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

 

[guanophore]

If only those who endure to the end are truly saved, as is eternal security then how is assurance even possible? The only assurance of persevering is to persevere!

How do you see this? How are all the promises that you see from an OSAS suddenly gone, when we say they apply to the one who perseveres? There are so many great and precious promises of assurance in scripture, it boggles the mind that you could say this. Hope does not disappoint us.

What they are attempting to do is keep the believer in a place of doubt so that, motivated by fear, they will do good works. But is this really their aim?

I don’t know where you are getting this. It sounds like Luther’s theology. Who are “they”? This is not the aim of Jesus, who teaches us that under His yoke is found joy and peace, and that we will find rest for our souls. Jesus has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power, love, and self control. He does not want us to live in fear, but as victorious overcomers.

Surely we have been freed from sin but there is a huge difference between thinking I am free from sin so therefore I do not sin and being free from sin because I have died to the fact that I do sin. The former is a delusion and the latter the only way to godliness sinful man has ever known for we were crucified with Christ and our sin dealt with by Him who said, “**It is finished!” **Place a man under the principle of law (do this and then I will do that) and you will get nothing but more sin – “for the strength of sin is the law” (1 Cor 15:56). Perhaps it could be said that this is, more accurately, their true goal for false doctrine inevitably begets false practice.

I am sorry that both of your formulations are lost on me. The Apostles taught that we are free from the slavery to sin, but that we continue to have a tendency toward sin (a sin nature). The Apostles also taught that we have died to sin (in baptism - buried with Christ), but that it is possible to then go and return to dead works.

Maybe you can help me understand better what you are trying to say.

Surely we are to examine ourselves in regard to our Christian walk – our own work – and well may we doubt but never should we question our salvation for that brings His work into question! For a believer to say, “Am I really saved?” is to say, “Did Jesus really die for my sins?”

I think this is a wrong attitude. Our Christian walk is not “our own work”, for the Christian has died, and his life is hidden with Christ in God. We live no longer for ourselves, but it is “Christ in me, the hope of glory”. Any good works that we do in such a state is a holy work, it is the work that God has ordained for us from the foundation of the world, that we should walk in it.

“From the testimony of Scripture a Christian should know that he is saved . . . Where there is a lack of assurance there is usually an impression that so long as the life is quite imperfect (and how immodest it would be to claim that it is otherwise) it is unreasonable to do any more than hope that through some special exercise of mercy on God’s part it will not be as bad in the end as it might otherwise be. Unwittingly such attitudes of mind disclose the appalling fact that persons who hold such views have never turned from dependence on their own works and merit to a dependence on the all-sufficient work and merit of Christ . . . It is offered to all meritless, helpless sinners who are willing to believe that God has already been good in that He has provided, in Christ, not only what they need now, but all they need in time and for eternity

I agree that, if one had this formulaiton, it would be a dependence on one’s own works and merit. However, the writer of this passage does not understand Catholic soteriology, or the scriptures. If one does not embrace “assurance” of salvation, one is not relegated to th ekind of thinking described here. Catholics know that hope does not disappoint us, and that we have been consecrated " to an inheritance which is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5 who by God’s power are guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In this you rejoice, though now for a little while you may have to suffer various trials, 7 so that the genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold which though perishable is tested by fire, may redound to praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 8 Without having seen him you love him; though you do not now see him you believe in him and rejoice with unutterable and exalted joy. 9 As the outcome of your faith you obtain the salvation of your souls."1 Peter 1:3-9

• our inheritance is kept in heaven for us, imperisable, undefiled, and unfading.
• By God’s power we are guarded through faith for this salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

For the present time we may have to suffer various trials

as the outcome of our faith, we receive the salvation of our souls.

How are any of these things based on the merit of man?

How are any of these very great and precious promises an occasion for despair, fear, or worry?