I never said we shouldn’t seek to imitate Christ, what I said was that it is not connected to Salvation.
I don’t know what you imagine “salvation” to be, but what use is it, if one cannot see Christ?
" Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one fail to obtain the grace of God;" Heb 12:13-15
This is written to believers, so one can assume that they have already obtained the grace to become partakers (been baptized and made a profession of faith). How can striving not be related to salvation? No one will see the Lord without holiness, because where He is, there is no unclean thing.
Certainly, every Free Grace theologian would probably agree that a Christian should seek to be a disciple of Christ, but they would say tacking on discipleship to Salvation is:
A) Not Scriptural (obviously, this is debatable)
B) Damages people’s faith
The “Free Grace Theologians” are certainly welcome to their opinion. However, the Apostles did not make a distinction between justification and sanctification. All who are justified in Christ are expected to become disciples, and be sanctified unto His purpose. The artificial separation occurred in the Reformation about 500 years ago, spawning theological formulations that the Apostles would recognize as heresy. The notion that discipleship damages people’s faith defies the imagination.
Also, a Believer’s works will be tested (St. Paul makes this very clear in Corinthians) and a person can suffer loss (the stubble and hay that is burned), but NOT loss of Salvation, but instead loss of eternal rewards (that treasure in Heaven). St. Paul even says that those people will be Saved who have nothing to show for it, but they will have nothing to show for it.
Catholic call this Purgatory (the purging of the saved with fire).
Also, who do you think we serve when Christians(children of God) fight amongst themselves? When some of us refuse to acknowledge the Christianity in other Christian faiths and spread such biased statements? Do we serve our Father in Heaven when we hurt other Christians or do we lower ourselves to fallen one’s level?
I believe that all the divisions in the Body are the work of the evil one. However, Jesus taught that unity would be found in Himself, as He is the fulfillment of the Truth. Therefore, all who are in unity with the Truth that He taught will automatically be in union with one another. Therefore, the solution to the divisions is to seek unity in His Truth.
- I don’t consider this a ‘fight’, but a theological discussion/debate.
Thank you, it has been most stimulating.
- When have I denied that Roman Catholicism is ‘Christian’ or judged someone else’s Salvation?
I suppose so, but since Catholics don’t believe we have attained salvation until the last day, it is difficult to understand this formulation.
“…an inheritance which is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5 who by God’s power are guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.” 1 Peter 1:4-5
- Do we serve our Father in Heaven if we spread an incorrect or confusing message?
Surely not! On the contrary, we serve only the wiles of the evil one. This is why Catholics are so fervent to cling to the Traditions that have been delivered to us by the Apostles.
" So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter." 2 Thess 2:14-15
Some Protestants are so far removed from the Sacred Traditions that they do not identify them for what they are, and mistakely think they are the traditions of men.
My response would be: try reading the writings of various Free Grace theologians (
www.faithalone.org is a good place to start). Most things are ‘repeating what you have already heard’. I don’t claim to be brilliant enough to come up with my own orginal systematic theology.
I read the links you posted. These are the same perspectives I received when I attended an Evangelical Protestant Seminary. While I was there, I started studying the history of the Church, and came out more Catholic than I ever was! God can write straight with crooked lines.
After all, what is the thing these people are doing that ‘spurns the grace of God’? They are trying to return to Judaic system of sacrifices instead of relying on the completeness of Christ’s sacrifice. In other words, they are adding their own works to Christ’s Work.
Do you believe that Catholics do this? This is a common misunderstanding of people who don’t distinguish the difference between works of the flesh (man’s work) from Sacred Works.
Possible, but a bit idealistic. Upon considering one’s eternal state and realizing that a bad place awaits those who are not Saved, how can one not concern themselves about this if they have no assurance?
I think this is a trust issue. People who have trouble trusting God to keep His promises seem to need some sort of man made invented “assurance”. Walking in faith requires that one trust in the unseen.
I have to admit this confuses me a bit and, for me at least, acts as a warning against using too many metaphors and subjective language.
I agree that the writer is using the metaphore of a "root of bitterness. However, it is not subjective at all:
" See to it that no one fail to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” spring up and cause trouble, and by it the many become defiled; 16 that no one be immoral or irreligious like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. 17 For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for
he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears." Heb 12:15-17
The grace of God is available to all unto salvation. However, certain persons can fail to obtain it. If a person does not place His faith in Christ, and His work on the cross, the grace will not save him. Bitterness (unforgiveness) defiles a person. Now, a person cannot become defiled unless one is first holy, justified by God. Although we are born again in Christ, by our immorality and irreligious behavior, we can sell our birthright. The devil is happy to rob us of it.
Thus, I am a little confused when you talk about ‘leaving’ eternal life. Eternal life is not something that is described as something that a person can ‘leave’.
Is it not?
"But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. 5 Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. 6 Yet this you have, you hate the works of the Nicola’itans, which I also hate. 7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’ Rev 2:3-7
Do you imagine that one can have eternal life apart from the lamp of Christ? What happens to the one who does not conquer? The one who does not repent?
On this earth, we are still in the presence of sin and our flesh is still tainted by it. My understanding is that the flesh (the sinful nature) can never be Saved (which is why those who are Saved are promised new bodies in Heaven). The new nature is already Saved.
What did Jesus take back into heaven that He did not have when He came? He became man, and joined HIs divinity with a human body. He took that human nature back with Him into heaven. This is His plan for our human nature. This has been His plan from the beginning. He wants to redeem all of us, body, soul, and spirit. Notice the language of the new heavenly body:
1 Cor 15:51-57
51 Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55 “O death, where is thy victory?
O death, where is thy sting?”
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."
We “put on” the new body, as if an overcloak. Our flesh will be transformed, just as the flesh of Jesus was transformed.
He became like us, so that we might become like Him.
One either has eternal life or one doesn’t. If one has eternal life, but then loses it, then it wasn’t eternal life.
Catholicism does not teach that eternal life is lost, but that the person who rejects discipleship is lost from the life. Life remains, and so long as he is in this world, he can choose to reconnect with it, just as the prodigal son did.
BTW- be honest, did you read those links I gave you? Those articles address some of the issue you bring up and they do a much better job than I could.
Yes, and my Free Grace Evangelical professors did a good job too. However, their teaching could not undo what the Apostles taught.
"… for me at least, this discussion is not about seeking God’s best for us (which is extremely important and something that should definitely be discussed), but about Salvation (specifically justification) and whether OSAS is true or not.
For the Catholic, salvation is God’s best for us. That is why we do not separate it from sanctification and glorification.
I agree that the ‘sinner’s prayer’ does not Save a person. Whether you believe that Jesus is the Messiah and Son of God who died on the cross, paid the penalty for your sins, and was resurrected is what determines whether you have eternal life or not.
Even the demons believe that!
James 2:19-20
Even the demons believe - and shudder. 20 Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren?"
28 And when he came to the other side, to the country of the Gadarenes, two demoniacs met him, coming out of the tombs, so fierce that no one could pass that way. 29 And behold, they cried out, “What have you to do with us, O Son of God? Have you come here to torment us before the time?” Matt 8:28-29
One could say the ‘sinner’s prayer’ (or any other bit of liturgy) a million times and still not believe what they are saying/reading.
Yes, but be honest! Most that say it are sincere, at least for the moment! I know I was, the multitude of times I said it.
) but it seems this passage could be used for or agaist OSAS…
at amatuers.