There's no OSAS

[guanophore]

Revelation has Jesus claiming to have the keys.

Different set of keys, and probably should go to a new thread. Jesus holds the keys of life and death. Peter did not die and rise again, and triumph over death. Peter was charged to feed and guard the sheep.

Jesus also said that His kingdom is not of this world. Jesus’ kingdom does not get its authority from anything that is part of this world, but from the Father above. You want me to believe the Kingdom is of this world.

No, we want you to recognize that we are in the world (though not of it) and that, until the Church is taken up, there are pastoral duties that need to be addressed in this world. One of these is told about in the book of Acts, at the council of Jerusalem. Peter’s authority, as with all the Apostles, comes from God.
Those who reject the successor of Peter reject the Apostolic Authority He appointed.

Look at the Vatican with all of its worldly property and claim to civil power. Jesus did not even have a place to call his own in this world. He had to borrow a coin to demonstrate the render unto Cesar the things which be Cesars. Some Popes ended up being “Cesar”, or just about the same thing as a Pontif.

Some Popes have been far too involved in secular politics. Their loss of appropriate focus changes nothing. Jesus’ charge to feed and guard the sheep is an irrevocable gift and calling.

We all have that key when the Holy Spirit indwells us. He opens God’s Word as we let Him guide us onto all Truth.

Sorry, but this is not what scripture says. Jesus chose Apostles, and passed His authority to them, and they to their successors. We participate in divine guidance when we are in unity with the authority appointed by Christ.

If we depend on ourselves to get the answer, we will fail.

I am glad that we are in agreement about SOMETHING!

If we depend on other fallible men to give us the answers, we risk even worse failure, since we insult and grieve the Holy Spirit by not looking in true faith to Jesus for our salvation, as the Holy Spirit was sent to reveal to us.

This is interesting. You state above that we all “have the key” and make as if there is no problem in each individual person relying upon the indwelling HS. Yet, when it comes to the body of successors to the Apostles, suddenly it is not people trusting the HS within, but “fallible men”. How is it that you, individually, are not fallible, but that the authority appointed by Christ is? This seems to be some kind of logical error. I think people that cannot trust the authority appointed by Jesus either have an authority problem, a trust issue, or both.

The saving Gospel is way more simple than you want to make it. It reminds me of Naamun who did not want to listen to Elisha who told him to wash seven times in the Jordan. He almost rejected doing it, because it was too simple. Man always wants to muck things up by making it complicated.

It is not complicated. Jesus was very brief, and plain. “Teach all that I have commanded”.

Even a child could figure out the simple Gospel according to God’s Wisdom. It really is not nearly as complicated as some would have everyone to believe.

What does this have to do with OSAS, and if it is so simple, why are there so many different understandings of the Holy Word?

 

[guanophore]

Well, since we are talking “probably already happened”, my best guess is that God will have to reopen limbo until somebody figures out what needs to be done. It just doesn’t sound fair that some people get to go to purgatory for sins that are “venial”. My understanding of the law is that if you are guilty of ANY sin, then it is the same as being guilty of ALL sin.
My understanding, also according to Scripture, is that if anyone dies, while still being guilty of the least sin, he goes directly to hell.

It is clear that you do not understand the Apostolic Teaching about sin, forgiveness, and atonement. In Jesus, all of our sins are forgiven in the sacrifice He made on the cross. Yes, there are diffferences in the degrees of sin, and when one breaks one law, one becomes guilty of the whole law. however, those who are in Christ are no longer under condemnation, because He has wiped away the bond that was against us. (The warrant is cancelled). We are washed, sanctified, and transferred from the Kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light. Jesus bore our guilt on the cross, and paid the price of our sins in His shed blood.

You are in error that “some people go to Purgatory for sins that are just venial”. This is not Catholic Teaching.

 

[johnnydigit]

Revelation has Jesus claiming to have the keys.

Isaiah 22:22 “And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.”

sound familiar? God was talking about Jesus. now Jesus talks to Peter. this is the only other time the Bible ever mentions keys and a kingdom.

Matthew 16:19 “And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

In ancient times, keys were the hallmark of authority. A walled city might have one great gate; and that gate had one great lock, worked by one great key. To be given the key to the city—an honor that exists even today, though its importance is lost—meant to be given free access to and authority over the city. The city to which Peter was given the keys was the heavenly city itself.

You want me to believe the Kingdom is of this world.

“the kingdom of God is at hand”???

“Our Father… thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.”

1 Chron. 28:5 - Solomon sits on the throne of the kingdom of the Lord. This shows that the “kingdom of God” usually means an earthly kingdom.

1 Chron. 29:23 - Solomon sits on the throne of the Lord as king in place of King David. The throne of God refers to the earthly kingdom.

Matt. 16:19 - Peter holds keys to this new Davidic kingdom and rules while the real King of David (Jesus) is in heaven.

Look at the Vatican with all of its worldly property and claim to civil power.

what does that have to do with the authority given and the teachings of Christ? do you assume that it would only be given to men who wouldn’t commit sin? your hatred of the sins of men is clouding your logic.

once saved, forever condemned by ignorance.

 

[trustinyou]

Well, since we are talking “probably already happened”, my best guess is that God will have to reopen limbo until somebody figures out what needs to be done. It just doesn’t sound fair that some people get to go to purgatory for sins that are “venial”. My understanding of the law is that if you are guilty of ANY sin, then it is the same as being guilty of ALL sin.
My understanding, also according to Scripture, is that if anyone dies, while still being guilty of the least sin, he goes directly to hell.

Didnt ST John say that there are some sins that are not deadly??

 

[distracted]

Once saved always saved ". There is no humility in that type of belief. Doesn’t Jesus love the humble person?

No humility and no purity of body and soul… “No unclean thing will enter Heaven.” If a person has sin and its effects on his soul, he isn’t going to go directly into Heaven… Maybe OSAS people believe in Purgatory more than they admit… because i DO believe (Church teaches) that those who have accepted Christ yet still have sin on their souls will make it to Heaven - eventually (provided they are repentant)… this is the only “OSAS” there is…

 

[brkn1]

Isaiah 22:22 “And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.”

sound familiar? God was talking about Jesus. now Jesus talks to Peter. this is the only other time the Bible ever mentions keys and a kingdom.

Matthew 16:19 “And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

In ancient times, keys were the hallmark of authority. A walled city might have one great gate; and that gate had one great lock, worked by one great key. To be given the key to the city—an honor that exists even today, though its importance is lost—meant to be given free access to and authority over the city. The city to which Peter was given the keys was the heavenly city itself.

“the kingdom of God is at hand”???

“Our Father… thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.”

1 Chron. 28:5 - Solomon sits on the throne of the kingdom of the Lord. This shows that the “kingdom of God” usually means an earthly kingdom.

1 Chron. 29:23 - Solomon sits on the throne of the Lord as king in place of King David. The throne of God refers to the earthly kingdom.

Matt. 16:19 - Peter holds keys to this new Davidic kingdom and rules while the real King of David (Jesus) is in heaven.

what does that have to do with the authority given and the teachings of Christ? do you assume that it would only be given to men who wouldn’t commit sin? your hatred of the sins of men is clouding your logic.

once saved, forever condemned by ignorance.

Notice in (Matthew 16:19) that Jesus said, “And I WILL give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven…”.

Jesus did not give out any keys at that time. It was a future giving of the keys that would be given to ALL of the Beloved who the Holy Spirit places in Christ as the Holy Spirit permanently indwells a believer. The Holy Spirit makes the true faith of the true believer the key to salvation, which is the same as the key to the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus had to still fulfill His redemptive Sacrifice for all of our sins, before those keys were available to all who came to Him (Jesus) in true faith, by the Holy Spirit’s leading.

Peter said to Cornelius, “Stand up; I myself am just a man.”
That would be a false statement if Peter were what the RCC says he is as “Pope”.
In (2 Peter 5:1), Peter says, “The elders which are among you I exhort, who am ALSO an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and ALSO a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed;”
It does not indicate here that Peter is the sole person holding the keys to the kingdom. ALL who have true faith in Jesus according to the simple gospel have that same key and none are in the position of being “lords over God’s heritage,…”
This kingdom of heaven is not come yet anyways. If it has already come, then the Lord’s Prayer should not be prayed anymore. “Thy kingdom come…” would no longer apply.

 

[ufamtobie]

Notice in (Matthew 16:19) that Jesus said, “And I WILL give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven…”.

Jesus did not give out any keys at that time. It was a future giving of the keys that would be given to ALL of the Beloved who the Holy Spirit places in Christ as the Holy Spirit permanently indwells a believer. The Holy Spirit makes the true faith of the true believer the key to salvation, which is the same as the key to the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus had to still fulfill His redemptive Sacrifice for all of our sins, before those keys were available to all who came to Him (Jesus) in true faith, by the Holy Spirit’s leading.

Peter said to Cornelius, “Stand up; I myself am just a man.”
That would be a false statement if Peter were what the RCC says he is as “Pope”.
In (2 Peter 5:1), Peter says, “The elders which are among you I exhort, who am ALSO an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and ALSO a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed;”
It does not indicate here that Peter is the sole person holding the keys to the kingdom. ALL who have true faith in Jesus according to the simple gospel have that same key and none are in the position of being “lords over God’s heritage,…”
This kingdom of heaven is not come yet anyways. If it has already come, then the Lord’s Prayer should not be prayed anymore. “Thy kingdom come…” would no longer apply.

brkn,

Do you really believe everyone with the Holy Spirt has the Keys to the Kingdom that each of us can bind or loose anything here on earth?

If Jesus Christ, gave everyone the keys and able to bind and loosen anything the Church would be in confusion.

Here is an example of confusion, The Protestant Church they believe or most believe like yourself that they have the KEYS and able to bind and loose. There are over tens of thousands of protestant churches who who don’t Agree with One Another each have bound this and bound that. Confused they are.

bkrn, wether you like it or not wether you believe it or not, Jesus left his Keys to Peter, and Peter by the power of the Holy Spirit left it to his Successors. Jesus Left order in the Catholic Church, leaders that will and that brought the Church thus far by the Power of the Holy Spirit.

BRKN, YOUR BATTLE HERE WILL NEVER BE WON YOU ARE WASTING YOUR TIME. FOR YOUR BATTLE IS WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT AND YOU ARE THE LOOSER.

The real reason you are here is that Jesus Christ has brought you here to become Catholic, so come back home!

Ufamtobie

 

[ryanoneil]

Notice in (Matthew 16:19) that Jesus said, “And I WILL give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven…”.

Jesus did not give out any keys at that time. It was a future giving of the keys that would be given to ALL of the Beloved who the Holy Spirit places in Christ as the Holy Spirit permanently indwells a believer. The Holy Spirit makes the true faith of the true believer the key to salvation, which is the same as the key to the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus had to still fulfill His redemptive Sacrifice for all of our sins, before those keys were available to all who came to Him (Jesus) in true faith, by the Holy Spirit’s leading.

Peter said to Cornelius, “Stand up; I myself am just a man.”
That would be a false statement if Peter were what the RCC says he is as “Pope”.
In (2 Peter 5:1), Peter says, “The elders which are among you I exhort, who am ALSO an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and ALSO a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed;”
It does not indicate here that Peter is the sole person holding the keys to the kingdom. ALL who have true faith in Jesus according to the simple gospel have that same key and none are in the position of being “lords over God’s heritage,…”
This kingdom of heaven is not come yet anyways. If it has already come, then the Lord’s Prayer should not be prayed anymore. “Thy kingdom come…” would no longer apply.

Think carefully about what you have said above.

"This is the time of fulfillment. The kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel." (Mk 1:15)

But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. (Mt 12:28)

Asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he said in reply, “The coming of the kingdom of God cannot be observed, and no one will announce, ‘Look, here it is,’ or, ‘There it is.’ For behold, the kingdom of God is among you.” (Lk 17:20-20)

I understand the Kingdom of God isn’t fully realized but Scripture clearly states that the Kingdom is present where Jesus is and where He acts through the Holy Spirit.

For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." (Mt 18:20)

Peace,

Ryan

 

[guanophore]

Notice in (Matthew 16:19) that Jesus said, “And I WILL give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven…”.

Jesus did not give out any keys at that time.

I agree. Jesus passed on His authority at the Great Commission, and empowered the Apostles to implement it at Pentecost.

It was a future giving of the keys that would be given to ALL of the Beloved who the Holy Spirit places in Christ as the Holy Spirit permanently indwells a believer. The Holy Spirit makes the true faith of the true believer the key to salvation, which is the same as the key to the kingdom of heaven.

No, none of this is scriptural. It is an evangelical invention to worm around apostolic authority. It is part of a new innovation previously unknown and unrecognizeable to the Church.

I agree however, at the HS does indwell each believer, and that each believer can benefit from the authority of Christ to the extent he is in communion with the successor of Peter. Jesus only gave these keys to Peter.

Jesus had to still fulfill His redemptive Sacrifice for all of our sins, before those keys were available to all who came to Him (Jesus) in true faith, by the Holy Spirit's leading.

I agree, but he left the keys with Peter, which is why we need to access them in communion with Peter.

Peter said to Cornelius, “Stand up; I myself am just a man.”
That would be a false statement if Peter were what the RCC says he is as “Pope”.

“Pope” is the Latin word for “papa”. Spiritual fatherhood does not make one divine! Honestly, where do you GET this stuff! Chick Tracts?

In (2 Peter 5:1), Peter says, “The elders which are among you I exhort, who am ALSO an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and ALSO a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed;”
It does not indicate here that Peter is the sole person holding the keys to the kingdom. ALL who have true faith in Jesus according to the simple gospel have that same key and none are in the position of being “lords over God’s heritage,…”

This kingdom of heaven is not come yet anyways. If it has already come, then the Lord’s Prayer should not be prayed anymore. “Thy kingdom come…” would no longer apply.

Like salvation, in some aspects it has come, is presently coming, and in some aspects has not come yet. Peter was given charge over the earthly manifestation of the Kingdom that is already among us.

 

[brkn1]

Think carefully about what you have said above.

"This is the time of fulfillment. The kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel." (Mk 1:15)

But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. (Mt 12:28)

Asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he said in reply, "The coming of the kingdom of God cannot be observed, and no one will announce, ‘Look, here it is,’ or, ‘There it is.’ For behold, the kingdom of God is among you." (Lk 17:20-20)

I understand the Kingdom of God isn’t fully realized but Scripture clearly states that the Kingdom is present where Jesus is and where He acts through the Holy Spirit.

For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." (Mt 18:20)

Peace,

Ryan

I’m not sure what bible version everyone is quoting here for (Luke 17:21), but reads as follows in the KJV:
“…for, behold, the kingdom of God is (within) you.”

The Greek word “entos” (G1787) is defined as : (within)

The indwelling Holy Spirit is also within every believer.

Does you bible really say (among) instead of (within)?

 

[elt1956]

Well, since we are talking “probably already happened”, my best guess is that God will have to reopen limbo until somebody figures out what needs to be done. It just doesn’t sound fair that some people get to go to purgatory for sins that are “venial”. My understanding of the law is that if you are guilty of ANY sin, then it is the same as being guilty of ALL sin.
My understanding, also according to Scripture, is that if anyone dies, while still being guilty of the least sin, he goes directly to hell.

So you are saying that there is no difference between the sinful acts of let’s say murder and a lie. Both sins are equal and deserve equal punishment? You are looking for a perfection that cannot be found in this world.

 

[brkn1]

So you are saying that there is no difference between the sinful acts of let’s say murder and a lie. Both sins are equal and deserve equal punishment? You are looking for a perfection that cannot be found in this world.

There is a difference as far as punishment goes.
Jesus said that there will be punishment with “many stripes” compared with “few stripes” of the damned, depending on the amount and severity of the damned’s sin.
The thing is, that both types of punishment do not take away from the fact that the person being punished is eternally damned.

If you die with the least sin uncovered by Jesus’ redeeming Blood, you are damned. Sin is sin, no matter how small, and its penalty is eternal damnation. There are no exceptions described in God’s Word.
The RCC has invented the idea of purgatory to explain away the obvious problem of a salvation that can not be sure. You admit that your salvation is not sure. You just hope that all your ducks are in a row at the final hour. There is even a sacrament of extreme unction to cover the last moments if a priest is available in time.

There is no way a person will end up as not having any sin at the moment of death, if our past, present and future sins were not aready taken care of at the moment of true belief and conversion into a new creature by the one redeeming Sacrifice of Jesus Christ. God’s work of salvation for a believer is complete once God adopts the believer into the Beloved. There is still the continued sanctification until death of the believer by the washing of the Word by Jesus in Heaven through the indwelling Holy Spirit, that all believers have. A person who would ignore this sanctification is likely not saved, since the new nature inside him makes his conscience very strong to seek the things of God in obedience and gratitude. He will become very uncomfortable with life in this world as David did when he sinned. God chastens His own sheep severely if they continue in sin.
A saved person, who obeys and willingly goes along with God’s program of being sanctified, will have much fruit (good works by the Holy Spirit) in his life and there will be extra rewards for this obedience in heaven.
An unsaved person, who commits terrible sin, without any consideration that God will further punish such acts, will find hell to be considerably worse than those who did much lesser sins.
Both unsaved persons will still be eternally damned.

No matter how well a person lives his life on this earth, if that person is not sealed and covered by Jesus’ redemptive Blood at death, that person is damned. Death marks the line where there can be no spot on anyone’s soul, or they are damned forever. Nobody but Jesus had such an ability to live in perfect obedience to the Father at all times.
You can not live for one moment without some part of that original sin-nature contaminating your soul. It is false piety that convinces any person that they are not sinning in some degree at every moment. Our “self” is always part of this mortal body on this earth and it will always cause us not to be in perfect communion with the Father, which will aways result in sin. If that sin has not already been perfectly paid for and thereby covered by Jesus’ Blood, we will not die without sin and hell will be our eternal reward. There is no penance or repayment we can offer God to remove the slightest sin we own. To suggest we can do so, is to not understand the enormity of sin in a Most Holy God’s eyes. Only Jesus could pay for any and all sins. We must have been made one of His sheep for His payment to take effect too.

 

[distracted]

Jesus said that there will be punishment with “many stripes” compared with “few stripes” of the damned, depending on the amount and severity of the damned’s sin.
The thing is, that both types of punishment do not take away from the fact that the person being punished is eternally damned.

Who says? You? I trust the Church established by Christ, not a human being… Even so, It does not say in that passage that the stripes are for the “damned”… this is a scipture that seems to allude to Purgatory… (though i would have to read the wohle thing… don’t have a bible handy)…

If you die with the least sin uncovered by Jesus’ redeeming Blood, you are damned. Sin is sin, no matter how small, and its penalty is eternal damnation.

Not true… There is a passage in the NT about how a certain sin is not “unto death”… (venial sin)…

the RCC has invented the idea of purgatory to explain away the obvious problem of a salvation that can not be sure.

the RCC didn’t invent anything… It is the Protestants who have invented things (eternal security, etc…)… For 1520 yrs, people accepted Purgatory…
The RCC is over 2000 yrs old. Protestant religions are only about 500 yrs old… and that is the oldest… Some are far newer than that… Jesus established a Church that could not be destroyed even by Satan, who is more powerful than any human being… (On this rock [Peter] I will build my Church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it." (st. Matthew 16:18)

You admit that your salvation is not sure.

Actually, all Catholics are not “not sure” of their salvation… I am one who is sure that i will make it to Heaven… not because i deserve it or anything… but because i love Jesus and obey His commandments… Yes, i will be tested in the future becaue the devil doesn’t leave any of us alone … but if i were to die now, i “know” I would at least go to Purgatory… and any committed, catechized Catholic could say the same thing…

You just hope that all your ducks are in a row at the final hour. There is even a sacrament of extreme unction to cover the last moments if a priest is available in time.

Jesus gave the power to forgive (absolve) sin to the Apostles ( bishophs/priests) in John 19:20-… He alone has the power to forgive sins but He, as he has the right to do, gave that power to the Apostles… though it is still He who actually forgives, yet through them… Jesus knew how human & needy (etc) we humans are so he set it up so that we could actually HEAR the words “I absolve you…”
Also, when we sin, we sin against not only God but against our fellow human beings and therefore… the logic of hearing a real human being saying those beautiful words “I absolve you of your sins…”…

 

[guanophore]

The RCC has invented the idea of purgatory to explain away the obvious problem of a salvation that can not be sure. You admit that your salvation is not sure. You just hope that all your ducks are in a row at the final hour. There is even a sacrament of extreme unction to cover the last moments if a priest is available in time.

You appear to have been wrongly taught about Catholicism. Purgatory has nothing to do with eternal security doctrine. Those who are purged are those who are the elect, and will enter heaven. The damned are not purged.

The theology that only those who persist to the end will be saved is Apostolic teaching, and is not “Roman” as you seem to think. All the Churches that have received the teaching of the apostles have this view. This is also the scriptural view.

There is no way a person will end up as not having any sin at the moment of death,

Theoretically it is possible, but I think for the most part, we are in agreement on this point. This is precisely why the Western Church conceives of Purgatory, since nothing unclean can enter heaven.

if our past, present and future sins were not aready taken care of at the moment of true belief and conversion into a new creature by the one redeeming Sacrifice of Jesus Christ. God’s work of salvation for a believer is complete once God adopts the believer into the Beloved.

What you are purporting here is not supported by scripture or Apostolic teaching. It is a “new gospel” that emerged during the reformation. If the “work of salvation” were complete, then there would be no need for a Bible at all, would there?

There is still the continued sanctification until death of the believer by the washing of the Word by Jesus in Heaven through the indwelling Holy Spirit, that all believers have. A person who would ignore this sanctification is likely not saved, since the new nature inside him makes his conscience very strong to seek the things of God in obedience and gratitude. He will become very uncomfortable with life in this world as David did when he sinned. God chastens His own sheep severely if they continue in sin.

Now you are contradicting yourself. If a person is “complete in salvation”, what is the point of sanctification?

A saved person, who obeys and willingly goes along with God’s program of being sanctified, will have much fruit (good works by the Holy Spirit) in his life and there will be extra rewards for this obedience in heaven.
An unsaved person, who commits terrible sin, without any consideration that God will further punish such acts, will find hell to be considerably worse than those who did much lesser sins.
Both unsaved persons will still be eternally damned.

This is very Catholic of you to say.

No matter how well a person lives his life on this earth, if that person is not sealed and covered by Jesus’ redemptive Blood at death, that person is damned. Death marks the line where there can be no spot on anyone’s soul, or they are damned forever. Nobody but Jesus had such an ability to live in perfect obedience to the Father at all times.

I agree with you, but the Catholic church teaches us not to judge others, but to leave this judgement to God. Only He can know the heart of a person.

You can not live for one moment without some part of that original sin-nature contaminating your soul. It is false piety that convinces any person that they are not sinning in some degree at every moment.

If this were true, then a number of scriptures would have to be invalidated. On the contrary, Jesus teaching is that we are transferred from the Kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light. We are “washed”, “purified”, “sanctified”.

Our “self” is always part of this mortal body on this earth and it will always cause us not to be in perfect communion with the Father, which will aways result in sin. If that sin has not already been perfectly paid for and thereby covered by Jesus’ Blood, we will not die without sin and hell will be our eternal reward. There is no penance or repayment we can offer God to remove the slightest sin we own.

It is statemenst like this that lead me to beleive that you misunderstand the Catholic teaching on salvation and purgatory. Sins can only be removed by the blood of Jesus.

To suggest we can do so, is to not understand the enormity of sin in a Most Holy God’s eyes. Only Jesus could pay for any and all sins. We must have been made one of His sheep for His payment to take effect too.

Penance is for the reparation of sins, that means making amends, not expiation. Only Jesus forgives sins. We can take actions that will help heal the damage caused by our sins.

No amount of reparation (trying to restore what was wronged) can “purchase” eternal forgiveness either.

 

[elt1956]

There is a difference as far as punishment goes.
Jesus said that there will be punishment with “many stripes” compared with “few stripes” of the damned, depending on the amount and severity of the damned’s sin.
The thing is, that both types of punishment do not take away from the fact that the person being punished is eternally damned.

If you die with the least sin uncovered by Jesus’ redeeming Blood, you are damned. Sin is sin, no matter how small, and its penalty is eternal damnation. There are no exceptions described in God’s Word.
The RCC has invented the idea of purgatory to explain away the obvious problem of a salvation that can not be sure. You admit that your salvation is not sure. You just hope that all your ducks are in a row at the final hour. There is even a sacrament of extreme unction to cover the last moments if a priest is available in time.

There is no way a person will end up as not having any sin at the moment of death, if our past, present and future sins were not aready taken care of at the moment of true belief and conversion into a new creature by the one redeeming Sacrifice of Jesus Christ. God’s work of salvation for a believer is complete once God adopts the believer into the Beloved. There is still the continued sanctification until death of the believer by the washing of the Word by Jesus in Heaven through the indwelling Holy Spirit, that all believers have. A person who would ignore this sanctification is likely not saved, since the new nature inside him makes his conscience very strong to seek the things of God in obedience and gratitude. He will become very uncomfortable with life in this world as David did when he sinned. God chastens His own sheep severely if they continue in sin.
A saved person, who obeys and willingly goes along with God’s program of being sanctified, will have much fruit (good works by the Holy Spirit) in his life and there will be extra rewards for this obedience in heaven.
An unsaved person, who commits terrible sin, without any consideration that God will further punish such acts, will find hell to be considerably worse than those who did much lesser sins.
Both unsaved persons will still be eternally damned.

No matter how well a person lives his life on this earth, if that person is not sealed and covered by Jesus’ redemptive Blood at death, that person is damned. Death marks the line where there can be no spot on anyone’s soul, or they are damned forever. Nobody but Jesus had such an ability to live in perfect obedience to the Father at all times.
You can not live for one moment without some part of that original sin-nature contaminating your soul. It is false piety that convinces any person that they are not sinning in some degree at every moment. Our “self” is always part of this mortal body on this earth and it will always cause us not to be in perfect communion with the Father, which will aways result in sin. If that sin has not already been perfectly paid for and thereby covered by Jesus’ Blood, we will not die without sin and hell will be our eternal reward. There is no penance or repayment we can offer God to remove the slightest sin we own. To suggest we can do so, is to not understand the enormity of sin in a Most Holy God’s eyes. Only Jesus could pay for any and all sins. We must have been made one of His sheep for His payment to take effect too.

We are all “covered” by Jesus blood. I don’t know about “sealed” as that to me has the sound of an absolute as a result of an individual opinion. That is why Catholics believe in the Sacraments passed down from Christ, through His Church and ministers to the present day and beyond.

 

[brkn1]

We are all “covered” by Jesus blood. I don’t know about “sealed” as that to me has the sound of an absolute as a result of an individual opinion. That is why Catholics believe in the Sacraments passed down from Christ, through His Church and ministers to the present day and beyond.

Yes, we must have all sins covered by Jesus’ Blood before death. Any sin not covered at death will condemn us forever.
There is a sealing that God places on the saved to keep them.

(Eph, 4:30) “And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”

The day of redemption has to do with the day of resurrection of our body, not to be confused with the redemption of our soul, which happens at the moment we are permanently sealed into the Beloved. See (Rom. 8:23)

 

[elt1956]

I see the usual ignoring of the chapter context in this quote.
Jesus was speaking to the apostles and you might have noticed that Jesus said: “But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say to tou, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.” Matt 10:23

That does not apply to us, but you would seem to say that it does by pulling verses out of context.

Why not go down to verse 32 “Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.”
It does not say that I have to confess the church or pope before men either. That is nowhere to be found in Scripture.
I confess the Lord Jesus Christ alone as my Redeemer and this I can honestly do, since I know that I have been saved eternally by the gift of God through the Holy Spirit, Who sealed me as an permanently adopted born again child of God. There is no such thing as being unborn physically and the same thing applies to never being unborn spiritually. A child of God is forever a child of God.
I can thank my Lord and my God for that gift of eternal salvation, but you can not honestly do so, since you are not sure in your faith that God has given you that gift, which makes your faith incomplete and therefore possibly of no value towards saving you. You can’t trust or have complete faith in God because you see your life as a form of roulette, where you need to work at being “lucky in the state of grace” at death. You also have to depend on the church for salvation, which means it is not only Jesus that saves you. You believe that you can earn or merit the “gift of salvation”, which the bible clearly tells you can NEVER be earned or deserved, since it would no longer be a gift.
Go ahead and laugh at what I have just said here. I don’t fear you, or believe that you or your church can “destroy both soul and body in hell”. Jesus alone is my Judge and Redeemer, and I will put my trust in Him alone for my salvation. Peter is not biblically described at being at Heaven’s gate either. Jesus is the door or gate, and a person can spiritually enter now as a child of Heaven. A born again child of God is only a pilgrim and he becomes a grateful and willing servant of the Lord on this earth, until the Lord receives him finally in Heaven. OSAS makes sense to me.

Those who receive the Sacrament of Baptism could be called “born again”. But Baptised, or not, we are all Children of God. It is up to us to accept Him as Father.

 

[elt1956]

I see the usual ignoring of the chapter context in this quote.
Jesus was speaking to the apostles and you might have noticed that Jesus said: “But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say to tou, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.” Matt 10:23

That does not apply to us, but you would seem to say that it does by pulling verses out of context.

Why not go down to verse 32 “Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.”
It does not say that I have to confess the church or pope before men either. That is nowhere to be found in Scripture.
I confess the Lord Jesus Christ alone as my Redeemer and this I can honestly do, since I know that I have been saved eternally by the gift of God through the Holy Spirit, Who sealed me as an permanently adopted born again child of God. There is no such thing as being unborn physically and the same thing applies to never being unborn spiritually. A child of God is forever a child of God.
I can thank my Lord and my God for that gift of eternal salvation, but you can not honestly do so, since you are not sure in your faith that God has given you that gift, which makes your faith incomplete and therefore possibly of no value towards saving you. You can’t trust or have complete faith in God because you see your life as a form of roulette, where you need to work at being “lucky in the state of grace” at death. You also have to depend on the church for salvation, which means it is not only Jesus that saves you. You believe that you can earn or merit the “gift of salvation”, which the bible clearly tells you can NEVER be earned or deserved, since it would no longer be a gift.
Go ahead and laugh at what I have just said here. I don’t fear you, or believe that you or your church can “destroy both soul and body in hell”. Jesus alone is my Judge and Redeemer, and I will put my trust in Him alone for my salvation. Peter is not biblically described at being at Heaven’s gate either. Jesus is the door or gate, and a person can spiritually enter now as a child of Heaven. A born again child of God is only a pilgrim and he becomes a grateful and willing servant of the Lord on this earth, until the Lord receives him finally in Heaven. OSAS makes sense to me.

Excellent post ​

And so Gottle, having accepted Christ do you believe as brkn that you are permanantly “sealed” to Christ, ie. Once saved, always saved?

 

[guanophore]

And so Gottle, having accepted Christ do you believe as brkn that you are permanantly “sealed” to Christ, ie. Once saved, always saved?

The two are not synonomous. Having been sealed does not guarantee that one will persist until the end. On the contrary, those who are sealed then spurn the protection and benefits of that seal find that their last state is WORSE than the first. Catholic teaching is that the seal occurs in baptism, as opposed to the non-biblical formulation of “acceptance of Jesus as personal Lord and Savior”.

 

[brkn1]

The two are not synonomous. Having been sealed does not guarantee that one will persist until the end. On the contrary, those who are sealed then spurn the protection and benefits of that seal find that their last state is WORSE than the first. Catholic teaching is that the seal occurs in baptism, as opposed to the non-biblical formulation of “acceptance of Jesus as personal Lord and Savior”.

You are saying that the Holy Spirit’s seal and earnest is not permanent. A seal from God can be broken by the will of man. You allow God’s Will to be inferior and subject to man’s will.
The logic just keeps getting more confusing by your claims.
An adopted child of God can get unadopted.
A person who becomes a new creature in Christ can go back to only being the old creature.
The indwelling of the Holy Spirit can go back to the undwelling of the HS.
The Begotten of God can become the unbegotten.
Eternal life does not mean eternal, but only potentially eternal.
You disagree with (1 John 5:4) “For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.” You must always include “potentially” overcomes with that claim also.