There's no OSAS

[brkn1]

Those who receive the Sacrament of Baptism could be called “born again”. But Baptised, or not, we are all Children of God. It is up to us to accept Him as Father.

We are children of Adam, until we are born from above.
We must be brought into God’s family by the Holy Spirit’ enabling us to have saving faith in the simple gospel of Jesus Christ.
The Holy Spirit then permanently indwells such an eternally saved person that then becomes a permanently adopted child of God in the Beloved.
We are a creature of God, but not a child of God until we are born from above. Adam’s original sin took away the “children of God” position that man first had.

 

[ryanoneil]

I’m not sure what bible version everyone is quoting here for (Luke 17:21), but reads as follows in the KJV:
“…for, behold, the kingdom of God is (within) you.”

The Greek word “entos” (G1787) is defined as : (within)

The indwelling Holy Spirit is also within every believer.

Does you bible really say (among) instead of (within)?

I’m quoting from the New American Bible. Here is the footnote.

Among you: the Greek preposition translated as among can also be translated as “within”. In the light of other statements in Luke’s gospel about the presence of the kingdom (see Lk 10: 9,11; 11:20) “among” is to be preferred.

Besides, Jesus was talking to the Pharisees and not believers. You’re not suggesting The Holy Spirit was within the Pharisees are you? (that would screw up the idea of OSAS)

Their Messiah was standing among them and they didn’t realize it. I was just pointing out that aspects of the kingdom HAVE come, and CAN come when we pray the Lord’s Prayer.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[ryanoneil]

Ultimately, salvation comes down to enduring to the end. There is no way around it.

**You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saved. (Mt 10:22; Mk 13:13)

But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved. (Mt 24:13)**

 

[elt1956]

The two are not synonomous. Having been sealed does not guarantee that one will persist until the end. On the contrary, those who are sealed then spurn the protection and benefits of that seal find that their last state is WORSE than the first. Catholic teaching is that the seal occurs in baptism, as opposed to the non-biblical formulation of “acceptance of Jesus as personal Lord and Savior”.

I believe I just realized (Duh!) why Protestants do not believe, for the most part, in infant Baptism. Some do, but I don’t know how many.

 

[guanophore]

You are saying that the Holy Spirit’s seal and earnest is not permanent. A seal from God can be broken by the will of man. You allow God’s Will to be inferior and subject to man’s will.

On the contrary, I am saying that, because the seal is permanent, if such a one falls from grace, his last state is worse than his first.

God has allowed man’s inferior will to oppose His own superior will. God desires that all men be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth. But, just as He created His angels as ministers for Himself and allowed them to fall from grace, so He allows man to do the same.

The logic just keeps getting more confusing by your claims.
An adopted child of God can get unadopted.

I understand how this is confusing for someone who has only understood the OSAS perspective. I also agree that it is not possible to be “unadopted”. In fact, we see in the parable of the prodigal son that he left His father’s house, but was always able to be received back as a son. Those who persist in rebellion are accursed, but no less children.

" Accursed children! 15 Forsaking the right way they have gone astray;" 2 Peter 2:14-15

Do you imagine that the Apostle, who is writing to believers here, expects that disobedient children will be spared from God’s wrath?

" We know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who do such things. 3 Do you suppose, O man, that when you judge those who do such things and yet do them yourself, you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you presume upon the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not know that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? 5 But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 For he will render to every man according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil…" Rom 2:1-9

sure doesn’t sound like heaven to me!

A person who becomes a new creature in Christ can go back to only being the old creature.

Once a person is sealed, a permanent mark is made. It is the same as the tatoo that was placed on a slave, or the brand on a beast. The slave or the horse can run away and never return, but they are still marked.

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit can go back to the undwelling of the HS.

Such a statement is contrary to apostolic teaching. It is possible to outrage the Spirit of grace in whom we were sealed for the day of redemption.

“How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?” Heb 10:29

OSAS are fond of saying that these passages do not refer to the saved, but there is no other way to be saved except to be sanctified by the blood of the covenant.

“These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm; for them the nether gloom of darkness has been reserved. 18 For, uttering loud boasts of folly, they entice with licentious passions of the flesh men who have barely escaped from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption; for whatever overcomes a man, to that he is enslaved. 20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.” 2 Peter 2:17-21

Now, the OSAS will say to me that such persons were never saved in the first place, but there is no escape from corruption without saving knowledge of Christ. Head knowledge will not enable one to escape defilement. The Apostle here makes it clear that those who have escaped the defilement of the world through Christ, then return to the slavery of sin, are destined to perdition.

The Begotten of God can become the unbegotten.

Oh, I agree! It would have been better for them never to have been born again.

Eternal life does not mean eternal, but only potentially eternal.

It is not eternal life that is potential. Eternal life, proceeding from God, is immutable. Humans, however, are fallible. Humans are able to separate themselves from eternal life. God has endowned humans with this gift, just as He did the angels.

You disagree with (1 John 5:4) “For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.” You must always include “potentially” overcomes with that claim also.

Yes, “if” we remain, abide, persevere, etc. God is faithful, but we must cooperate with His grace. We must not spurn and outrage the spirit.

 

[distracted]

We are children of Adam, until we are born from above. …

The Holy Spirit then permanently indwells such an eternally saved person that then becomes a permanently adopted child of God in the Beloved.
.

the Holy Spirit does not stay around when a person chooses to stay in mortal sin… Well, in a way, the HS does stick around because God is always trying to get people to do the right thing, stay on the pathway to Heaven… but God hates sin… & will not join Himself to it… forever…

The way i look at is this:

Sin is burned up in the fires of Purgatory and Hell… If a person refuses to detach from his sin, it is only logical that he will be destroyed along with it… either temporarily or permanently

 

[fixitherm]

This has been an interesting topic to follow, though I have not read it all. With OSAS what happens to the gift of Hope? We don’t have what we hope for until we get to heaven ( where hope is no more).

 

[brkn1]

This has been an interesting topic to follow, though I have not read it all. With OSAS what happens to the gift of Hope? We don’t have what we hope for until we get to heaven ( where hope is no more).

Our salvation is not complete until we finally receive our resurrected and glorified bodies at the end. Waiting for that to happen requires a sure hope, meaning that we know it will come to pass.
There is a sure hope evidenced to ourselves by that peace inside us resulting from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. That sure hope is the same thing as true saving faith in God, which is the only faith that pleases God.
You do not think Abraham would have begun to raise that knife to kill his beloved son Isaac, unless Abraham had a complete faith and sure hope that whatever God told him to do was right and for good. That is saving faith and God treasures that sort of faith. It gives Him all the Honor and Glory, which only God has a right to.

 

[guanophore]

You do not think Abraham would have begun to raise that knife to kill his beloved son Isaac, unless Abraham had a complete faith and sure hope that whatever God told him to do was right and for good. That is saving faith and God treasures that sort of faith. It gives Him all the Honor and Glory, which only God has a right to.

I agree. Abraham demonstrated his faith in his works, and this is the only kind of faith that pleases God.

God also is pleased to share His glory with His saints.

“There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but** glory and honor and peace for every one who does good**, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality.” Rom 2:8-11

Do OSAS people maintain that people who do evil were never saved in the first place?

 

[ryanoneil]

Abraham is a perfect example. Even though he was justified in Genesis 15, God still required him to sacrifice his son (a “work”) which justified him in Genesis 22. If Abraham would not have added this work to his faith, he would have fallen out of favor with God.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.” See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. (James 2:21-24)

Faith and works are required for salvation. God accepts them when done in a system of grace. This means we don’t view God as a debtor who owes us, but as a loving Father who will reward us out of His goodness. Neither our faith nor our works can please God outside of grace. The key distinction is law versus grace. We are saved by God’s grace through faith and works, and not faith alone.

 

[brkn1]

Abraham is a perfect example. Even though he was justified in Genesis 15, God still required him to sacrifice his son (a “work”) which justified him in Genesis 22. If Abraham would not have added this work to his faith, he would have fallen out of favor with God.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.” See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. (James 2:21-24)

Faith and works are required for salvation. God accepts them when done in a system of grace. This means we don’t view God as a debtor who owes us, but as a loving Father who will reward us out of His goodness. Neither our faith nor our works can please God outside of grace. The key distinction is law versus grace. We are saved by God’s grace through faith and works, and not faith alone.

There is a problem with the assumption that Abraham had to justify himself by works or “he would have fallen out of favor with God”.
God had already promised Abraham that he would go to his fathers in peace. (Genesis 15:15)
God already made a covenant with Abram and it was completely God’s work and doing, not Abram’s. Abram did not pass between the pieces of the sacrifice during the actual covenant making, as was the custom for both parties in those days. It was only God and God’s promise that was involved. There was no requirement for Abram to do any work to complete or fulfill the covenant.

Abraham was only justified before man by his work of being willing to sacrifice Isaac.
Abraham was already justified before God long before that resulting work that demonstrated or evidenced Abraham’s justification. He never would have had that ability to do so, without already being strengthened by God’s justification prior to the resulting work.

 

[distracted]

This has been an interesting topic to follow, though I have not read it all. With OSAS what happens to the gift of Hope? We don’t have what we hope for until we get to heaven ( where hope is no more).

interesting thought… and also, if a person is already saved, why would God continue his existence in the world… I mean, you know, if he/she had nothing else to “learn”, no further growth to achieve… doesn’t make much sense to me…

 

[ryanoneil]

There is a problem with the assumption that Abraham had to justify himself by works or “he would have fallen out of favor with God”.
God had already promised Abraham that he would go to his fathers in peace. (Genesis 15:15)
God already made a covenant with Abram and it was completely God’s work and doing, not Abram’s. Abram did not pass between the pieces of the sacrifice during the actual covenant making, as was the custom for both parties in those days. It was only God and God’s promise that was involved. There was no requirement for Abram to do any work to complete or fulfill the covenant.

I’m not arguing against Gen 15. all faith is a gift from God, and not earned or merited by any human action. God effects everything, both the willing and the achievement. But God also requires human action, which is necessary to perfect our faith.

You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. (James 2:22)

**So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. (James 2:17)

For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. (James 2:26)**

Abraham was only justified before man by his work of being willing to sacrifice Isaac.
Abraham was already justified before God long before that resulting work that demonstrated or evidenced Abraham’s justification. He never would have had that ability to do so, without already being strengthened by God’s justification prior to the resulting work.

I agree with what you are saying, except the justified before men part. Scripture disproves this claim.

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? (James 2:14) Salvation comes from God. This proves the justification James is referring to is before God, not men.

You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. (James 2:19) This refers to our relationship and status with God, not with men.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? (James 2:21) Abraham’s justification refers to his position before God, not men.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[guanophore]

There is a problem with the assumption that Abraham had to justify himself by works or “he would have fallen out of favor with God”.
God had already promised Abraham that he would go to his fathers in peace. (Genesis 15:15)
God already made a covenant with Abram and it was completely God’s work and doing, not Abram’s. Abram did not pass between the pieces of the sacrifice during the actual covenant making, as was the custom for both parties in those days. It was only God and God’s promise that was involved. There was no requirement for Abram to do any work to complete or fulfill the covenant

A covenant is an agreement between parties. To say that God made a covenant but the other party had nothing to do with it makes no sense. On the contrary, Abraham demonstrated His faith through obedience. It was Abraham that slaughtered the animals and laid them out. It was Abraham that waited upon the Lord in obedience to the command. These are things that God commanded Abraham to do, and he did them. This is what it means to cooperate with grace.

Abraham was only justified before man by his work of being willing to sacrifice Isaac.
Abraham was already justified before God long before that resulting work that demonstrated or evidenced Abraham’s justification. He never would have had that ability to do so, without already being strengthened by God’s justification prior to the resulting work.

Abraham had no interest in being justified before man, and God had no need to justify Abraham before others. In fact, God clearly told him to leave all the other people behind, so that the sacrifice would be private. I think it is a creative innovation to say that the purpose of good works is so that people can be justified before men, but it holds no correlation to Apostolic teaching.

I do agree, however, that Abraham’s works cannot justify him when he is not in a state of grace. All the good works that God has prepared beforehand that we should walk in them have the ability to perfect us in holiness, but this is all dependent upon grace, through faith. Grace, faith,and the obedience that flows from them cannot be separated.

all faith is a gift from God, and not earned or merited by any human action. God effects everything, both the willing and the achievement. But God also requires human action, which is necessary to perfect our faith.

All that we are is a gift of God, but faith, like the will, is part of our created being. It is incumbent upon us to place our faith. God does not do this for us, but when we do place our faith in Him, He says “your faith has saved you”. It is not “his” faith, since He gave it to us. It is our faith. Like the rest of our human parts, it is subject to our will and effort.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Was not Abraham who pleaded with God not to destroy the city if he could find a few good men, something like fifty, ten, five or even one? and God would spear the city because of one good man? Hunmmmnnn…

God gave us faith and reason. lets use both.

:bowdown: :byzsoc:

 

[guanophore]

Was not Abraham who pleaded with God not to destroy the city if he could find a few good men, something like fifty, ten, five or even one? and God would spear the city because of one good man? Hunmmmnnn…

God gave us faith and reason. lets use both.

:bowdown: :byzsoc:

I think it was 10 good men, but yes, this story is a good example of how God will change what He intends to do, based on the actions of persons.

 

[ryanoneil]

All that we are is a gift of God, but faith, like the will, is part of our created being. It is incumbent upon us to place our faith. God does not do this for us, but when we do place our faith in Him, He says “your faith has saved you”. It is not “his” faith, since He gave it to us. It is our faith. Like the rest of our human parts, it is subject to our will and effort.

I agree. Maybe it would have been better for me to say he gives us “the gift of faith” but we have to use it.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[upciguy26]

I wonder how protestants explain this passage:
Mtt 10,22 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
To the end…
Almost 5 centuries of contradicting the Scripture is definitely too much.
God bless.

Me as a Protestant would say AMEN

 

[johnnydigit]

Also, if you are going to quote statistics (such as that 0.00005% remark), then back them up and show where you got them.

Also, does the fact that such a theology can be abused disprove it? After all, look at history, Roman Catholic theology (especially the sale of indulgences) has been abused. Does this automatically disprove Roman Catholicism? You cannot have it both ways. You either argue it based on Scriptural merits or on more subjective bases, but if you opt for the latter, then it brings all theology (including your precious Canons and Catechism) into very quick question.

how else would you like to explain a ratio of almost none? divide the number of OSAS believers by the total Christians in the world, now and ever in history, and they all will have many zeroes after the decimal point. unfortunately an estimate probably can’t even be found because it’s so insignificant.

we don’t need to disprove every heresy. there is only one truth, everything else needs to disprove the one truth first if it’s to even stand a chance at recognition.