There's something i can't understand

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John_Paul_Jones said:
The Jews during the time of Jesus of Nazareth rejected Him as their long awaited Messiah, they’re are still Jews today that await for a messiah. On the other hand I’m not sure what is meant when muslims talks about Jesus being a “Messiah” since there are certain truths about Jesus Christ missing in islam.

To better understand the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ, you have to understand Original Sin. I don’t think islam teaches or recognizes Original Sin. (I don’t know if I can explain it a well as I would like.) Original Sin is not a personal sin, it isn’t a sin a person commits, nor is it a “mysterious illness.” Original Sin more of a condition that all men and women have a tendency to sin, and when tempted they usually do. Adam and Eve were originally created sinless, but still had a trial to go though, (you know the story) God allowed them to eat from any tree in the Garden except from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. (To be honest, the fruit is not mentioned in The Bible as an apple.)

When Adam and Eve disobeyed God their original state changed, they were no longer in the pristine state God created them. Since they offended a God that was only good to them and for no reason, their sin was great, even though it seems like a trifle thing to us now. There were consequences too - sin enters the world, because now all humans have the propensity to sin (because of original sin). And because of it there is a cascading effect, sins get progressively worse. People get further and further away from God, Jesus came into the world to correct all that and restore mankind back to the friendship of God.
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As a muslim we recognise jesus as the messiah unlike the jews. The only difference here is that we do not see jesus as God. God has no sons or daughters. God is eternal and has no beginning or end.

The original sin goes against the teachings of islam because it means man is born with a hereditary sin for which he’s not responsible and for that he ends up going to hell unless he believes in the blood and sacrifice of jesus. In islam we believe that every man is responsible for his own actions. What Adam and eve did has no bearing on me. Why should God almighty hold me and my family responsible for the actions of adam and eve?
Adam didnt ask for my permission before eating that apple nor did eve.

There are millions of people out there who have no idea who jesus is. Millions died without hearing the word christ. Do they all end up in hell since they never accepted jesus?
 
rand_al_thor said:
but why would God send an innocent man to die for sins he did not commit.Is God powerless to forgive that they only way to get rid of the sin is for someone else to die for it?
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Jesus said that the greatest love is to lay down one’s life for another. By His incarnation and sacrifice God demonstrates His love in no uncertain terms, rather than remaining an aloof and vague deity. Jesus shows us the authentic face of the Father-a God who has a heart of humility and servitude towards His wayward creation. The “illness” we inherited from Adam is the very rebellion against and separation from God that came about through Adams disobedience. This is a disordered state and Muslims, as well, believe that man must have faith in God-a faith that had died in mans heart at the fall. God demonstrates that, although man mistrusted God, He always loved man with a love beyond our compression-always having mans best interest and ultimate happiness at heart. He wants us to come to see our need for Him again and turn from our self-destructive state towards a Love so profound and unbounded that sheer happiness is the unavoidable result of communion with it.
 
edward_george said:
I recommend St. Athanasius’ On the Incarnation. It explains the theology of the Incarnation very clearly and eloquently.

newadvent.org/fathers/2802.htm

-ACEGC
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i am reading that i can’t understand something. the word. what’s the nature of this word? from what i can gather it seems to be something that is quite distinctive from God itself. and it took mortal form and came down to earth. am i right in this?
 
rand_al_thor said:
but why would God send an innocent man to die for sins he did not commit.Is God powerless to forgive that they only way to get rid of the sin is for someone else to die for it?
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What’s the big deal about dieing? Don’t some Muslims believe if they die a martyred death the get special treatment in ‘heaven’?

What is real death? It is sparation from God. Sin separated us. How can I pay for my past sins? I can’t. Jesus did and could do so because He was and is sinless.

We’re all in this together; we ALL have sinned. Therefore, we all need forgiveness that can ONLY be gotten throgh the Blood of the God/Man, Jesus.
 
fhansen said:
Jesus said that the greatest love is to lay down one’s life for another. By His incarnation and sacrifice God demonstrates His love in no uncertain terms, rather than remaining an aloof and vague deity. Jesus shows us the authentic face of the Father-a God who has a heart of humility and servitude towards His wayward creation. The “illness” we inherited from Adam is the very rebellion against and separation from God that came about through Adams disobedience. This is a disordered state and Muslims, as well, believe that man must have faith in God-a faith that had died in mans heart at the fall. God demonstrates that, although man mistrusted God, He always loved man with a love beyond our compression-always having mans best interest and ultimate happiness at heart. He wants us to come to see our need for Him again and turn from our self-destructive state towards a Love so profound and unbounded that sheer happiness is the unavoidable result of communion with it.
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so God in his infinite wisdom could not forgive adam for his sins, nor his creation and therefore sacrificed himself to get rid of this sin thereby demonstrating his life for mankind?
 
rand_al_thor said:
i am reading that i can’t understand something. the word. what’s the nature of this word? from what i can gather it seems to be something that is quite distinctive from God itself. and it took mortal form and came down to earth. am i right in this?
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The word -or logos-is Gods expression-His self-revelation to the world. Jesus’ nature exactly expresses or reflects Gods’.
 
rand_al_thor said:
So then God then decides the only way to remove this sin is basically go down to earth in a human form, in womb of a woman for 9 months, and undergo the trials and tribulations of normal human being. whether it be eating, drinking or getting circumscied. And then get crucified to remove the sin of adam.

This is really something i can’t get my head around.
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We know only that God decided to save us in this way, he could have done it any way He chose.
 
Dokimas said:
What’s the big deal about dieing? Don’t some Muslims believe if they die a martyred death the get special treatment in ‘heaven’?

What is real death? It is sparation from God. Sin separated us. How can I pay for my past sins? I can’t. Jesus did and could do so because He was and is sinless.

We’re all in this together; we ALL have sinned. Therefore, we all need forgiveness that can ONLY be gotten throgh the Blood of the God/Man, Jesus.
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That is not a just God. A God that holds his entire creation at fault for the sin of 2 people.
 
fhansen said:
The word -or logos-is Gods expression-His self-revelation to the world. Jesus’ nature exactly expresses or reflects Gods’.
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So if that is God’s revelation or his own words i take it that the word and the God are the same thing right?
 
rand_al_thor said:
As a muslim i find the christian concept of God a bit strange with all due respect. Now the jew and the muslim viewpoint of God is strict monotheism. The only difference between the jew and the muslim is that the jew rejects christ as the messiah whereas the muslim does not.

so this is what bothers me. we are told that christians worship one God. I say i have no problem with that. So i then proceed to dig a bit deeper Now he creates adam and eve. Adam and eve sin by eating the apple. Result sin entered into the world. All of adam’s descendants have this mysterious illness whether they are child or a 80 year old.

So then God then decides the only way to remove this sin is basically go down to earth in a human form, in womb of a woman for 9 months, and undergo the trials and tribulations of normal human being. whether it be eating, drinking or getting circumscied. And then get crucified to remove the sin of adam.

This is really something i can’t get my head around.
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Ignore some of the **** responses above, please don’t think those aggressive posters by any means represent the Catholic church.

Mate, don’t think of what happened to Adam and Eve as the start of an illness. What happened in the analogy of the Garden of Eden is that God created humanity and humanity sold Him short upon being tempted by the devil. This flaw inherent in mankind could only be corrected by God, through Christ. Its a mystery so hard to explain or understand fully I guess. Drop me a PM if you want to chat about it. I promise not to speculate.
 
rand_al_thor said:
so God in his infinite wisdom could not forgive adam for his sins, nor his creation and therefore sacrificed himself to get rid of this sin thereby demonstrating his life for mankind?
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He proved the reality and radical nature of sin or moral evil-that which separates us from Him, convicting the world of sin when it refused the light and chose darkness by humiliating, torturing and killing the One who showed His perfection, His beauty, His love, His innocence, His truthfulness by all He said and did. By this act He took sin down with Him, forgiving it all in the process, conquering sin and then mans ultimate enemy-death-by the resurrection. He offers eternal life to those who now turn back to God in faith, hope, and ultimately love above all else, themselves rejecting sin/hatred/death- and choosing life.
 
Dokimas said:
Make no mistake, ALL sin.

Are you sure we want to be in a discussion of a just God?
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humans sin. no doubt about that. but your sin is yours. my sin is mine. you get punished for your own sin. as do i. but to get punished for someone’s else sin is not just
 
fhansen said:
He proved the reality and radical nature of sin or moral evil-that which separates us from Him, convicting the world of sin when it refused the light and chose darkness by humiliating, torturing and killing the One who showed His perfection, His beauty, His love, His innocence, His truthfulness by all He said and did. By this act He took sin down with Him, forgiving it all in the process, conquering sin and then mans ultimate enemy-death-by the resurrection. He offers eternal life to those who now turn back to God in faith, hope, and ultimately love above all else, themselves rejecting sin/hatred/death- and choosing life.
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i am sorry but you are saying the world plunged into darkness when they killed christ?
 
rand_al_thor said:
humans sin. no doubt about that. but your sin is yours. my sin is mine. you get punished for your own sin. as do i. but to get punished for someone’s else sin is not just
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Doesn’t Islam teach that man must* believe* in order to enter heaven? Where does unbelief come from? Unbelief -let alone lack of love for God-is common to all men at birth and is a disordered state-a separation from God that must be reconciled for the sake of justice and mans own well-being.
 
fhansen said:
Yes
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But how is that possible. You and i agree that there is One God. Now you say that his revelation to earth is the word. And that the word and God are the same thing. how can two different things be the same thing?
 
rand_al_thor said:
But how is that possible. You and i agree that there is One God. Now you say that his revelation to earth is the word. And that the word and God are the same thing. how can two different things be the same thing?
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By not being two different things? 🤷 God is beyond time and space-I don’t think His self-expression to the world should be problematic for Him.
 
fhansen said:
Doesn’t Islam teach that man must* believe* in order to enter heaven? Where does unbelief come from? Unbelief -let alone lack of love for God-is common to all men at birth and is a disordered state-a separation from God that must be reconciled for the sake of justice and mans own well-being.
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belief is not the only thing that is required in islam. Righteous deeds are important too. You need both in islam.

So if we are born with a state of seperation from God, what happens to jewish baby that dies or a muslim baby that dies?
 
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