These are the Jews you follow for your Canon?

[NotWorthy]

I’ve heard of the Council of Jamnia, where the Jews determined the OT Canon, eliminating the 7 deuterocanonicals. Other Christian faiths have used this as the basis for removing these same books from their Christian Canon. Although I’ve heard that Jamnia never even formalized a canon, that’s not the reason for my debate.

I was reading on AgapeBibleStudy.Com about Jamnia and saw an anti-Christian bias in the council’s actions. Let me illustrate:

In the first century AD Christians were effectively using the Septuagint Old Testament translation to prove that Jesus Christ was the promised Davidic Messiah. For this reason the Septuagint Greek translation became an anathema to the Jews who rejected Jesus as the Messiah. After the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple in 70AD, worship of Yahweh under the Law of the Old Covenant was no longer possible. Worship expressed as sacrifice in atonement for sins and reestablishment of communion with God could only be offered at the Temple in Jerusalem.

The surviving Jewish scholars withdrew to the Holy Land towns of Jamnia (Jabneh) in the late 1st century-early 2nd century AD [circa 90-100AD] and later in the 3rd century AD to the city of Tiberius, establishing their own Sanhedrin without the representative character and national authority of the former legislative civil/religious body *Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, *“Jamnia”, ed. by F.L. Cross and E.A. Livingston, Oxford University Press, page 861]. Both sites had become non-authoritative centers to reformulate a religion without a Temple and the result was that Rabbinic Judaism became the replacement for the Law of Moses and the Sinai Covenant.

The first goal of Rabbinic Judaism was to record the oral traditions not contained in Sacred Scripture and second, to produce a new Greek translation of Sacred Scripture which could not be used so effectively by Christians to prove that Jesus of Nazareth was the promised Davidic Messiah. A new Greek translation was produced by Jewish rabbis of Jamnia circa 100AD which manipulated the Old Testament prophecies to change the wording and make the text less likely to be used as a proof of Jesus’ fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy. You may recall the words of St. James, Bishop of Jerusalem to St. Paul in Acts 21:20 concerning the success of proselytizing Jews: You see, brother, how thousands of Jews have now become believers, all of them staunch upholders of the Law*…

• I**n order to undermine the Christian claim that Jesus was the Messiah, a number of the prophetic texts that Christians used as proof of the Messiahship and divinity of Christ were re-written. For example, a Jewish scholar named Aquila, removed the Greek word *parthenos, ***which means “virgin” from Isaiah 7:14 and rewrote the passage as neanis = young woman, in the new Greek translation; therefore, the passage read “…a young woman shall conceive” instead of “the virgin shall conceive.”

This deception allowed Jews to assert that the prophecy didn’t match what the Christians were teaching about the very nature of Christ in Matthew 1:23 when the Apostle Matthew quoted this passage from the Greek Septuagint version and applied it to Jesus’ virgin birth in Bethlehem. This second Greek translation is known as the Jamnian-Palestinian version [see *This Rock, September 2004,“The Council That Wasn’t”, Steve Ray, page 26].

Now, I ask you, if you follow the oft-repeated claim that the Jews are the authority of OT Scriptures, and you see how these same Jews changed the Scriptures to try to squash this new Christian Sect that was growing, is this the kind of authority you wish to rely on to determine OT Scriptures?!?!?

 

[Bishopite]

I’ve heard of the Council of Jamnia, where the Jews determined the OT Canon, eliminating the 7 deuterocanonicals. Other Christian faiths have used this as the basis for removing these same books from their Christian Canon. Although I’ve heard that Jamnia never even formalized a canon, that’s not the reason for my debate.

Jamnia or Javneh wasn’t actually a “council” as a Catholic or Eastern Orthodox would say council. It was a group of Jewish leaders perhaps or Jewish seminarians who apparently got together but the historical evidence isn’t absolute, I’ve read and it wasn’t a council like we Catholics understand councils.
And yes they did drop the dueterocanonicals but they also at that time dropped the Gospels which were always considered in the early church to be undisputed and inspired books (actually scrolls).

I was reading on AgapeBibleStudy.Com about Jamnia and saw an anti-Christian bias in the council’s actions. Let me illustrate:
Now, I ask you, if you follow the oft-repeated claim that the Jews are the authority of OT Scriptures, and you see how these same Jews changed the Scriptures to try to squash this new Christian Sect that was growing, is this the kind of authority you wish to rely on to determine OT Scriptures?!?!?

 

[NotWorthy]

The Pharisial type of Judaism became dominant after the time of Jamnia and the Jews considered this new Christian movement to be a Jewish “sect” and were very concerned because so many Jews were becoming Christians, so yes they did change Isaiah 7:14 from “virgin” to “young woman” in order to attempt to disprove the OT prophecies about Mary’s virgin birth and by extention attempting to disprove Jesus as the true Messiah.

This type of Judaism is know as “Rabbinical Judaism” and is still prevalent today.

But the main point of this thread is still directed at our Christian Brothers and Sisters: You’re going to trust your OT Canon to a group that was willing to change their OT Scriptures in order to mislead others away from Christianity?!?!?

 

[Nita]

Thanks for the post. I had never heard before about the change made in the Greek for the word “virgin” (Isaiah 7:14 passage). After reading the “This Rock” article by Stephen Ray, I decided to do some more searching. Came upon this article which gives more detailed info about the Hebrew and Greek words. Very interesting. Decided to just give the link as I’m always unsure just how much it is okay to copy and post.

journalofbiblicalstudies.org/Issue1/Articles/linkage_between_isaiah_7.htm#EXCURSUS

Nita

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

IBRI Research Report #13 (1983)

THE COUNCIL OF JAMNIA AND THE OLD TESTAMENT CANON
Robert C. Newman

ABSTRACT

A basic feature of most liberal theories of the Old Testament canon is an alleged council held at Jamnia about AD 90 which is supposed to have canonized or at least finalized the Writings or Hagiographa, the third division of the Hebrew Old Testament. In this paper–a reprint of the article appearing in the Westminster Theological Journal 38 (Spring, 1976)–the Talmudic evidence for such a council is surveyed. It is concluded that there is no real evidence for such a council nor for any binding canonical decisions at that time. Instead there appears to have existed a consensus on the content of the Old Testament in the first century AD which was already ancient at that time…

ibri.org/DVD-1/RRs/RR013/13jamnia.html
ibri.org/Contents/Authors-DVD-1.htm

 

[Joel_Tunnah]

What’s always struck me about liberal translations of Isaiah 7:14 is how obtuse a prophecy about a “young woman” giving birth to a child is. Who else would be giving birth to a child, a young man? An old woman?

Now, a virgin giving birth, on the other hand, would be prophecy-worthy. Simple literary criticism and common sense tell us that virgin fits better than young woman here.

 

[Palladio]

What’s always struck me about liberal translations of Isaiah 7:14 is how obtuse a prophecy about a “young woman” giving birth to a child is. Who else would be giving birth to a child, a young man? An old woman?

Now, a virgin giving birth, on the other hand, would be prophecy-worthy. Simple literary criticism and common sense tell us that virgin fits better than young woman here.

Yes!

 

[Lev23]

What’s always struck me about liberal translations of Isaiah 7:14 is how obtuse a prophecy about a “young woman” giving birth to a child is. Who else would be giving birth to a child, a young man? An old woman?

Now, a virgin giving birth, on the other hand, would be prophecy-worthy. Simple literary criticism and common sense tell us that virgin fits better than young woman here.

Which bible translations do this?

 

[Genesis315]

The Jews couldn’t recognize the Messiah, and yet some people rely on them to recognize the Scriptures (of course they completely rejected 27 books of Scripture that Protestants accept anyway).

I’ve also read that the books of Maccabees were excluded under pressure by the Roman ruler at the time who thought they could motivate the people to revolt.

 

[Joel_Tunnah]

Which bible translations do this?

NEB, NJB, and RSV for starters. I’m sure there are a few others, and I know all the Jewish Publication Society translations render it as young woman also.

Quite surprisingly, the NAB translates it correctly, even though its chairman was openly disdainful of the idea, and of a messianic reading of the OT at all.

 

[NotWorthy]

Quite surprisingly, the NAB translates it correctly, even though its chairman was openly disdainful of the idea, and of a messianic reading of the OT at all.

That would make sense after reading some of the NAB’s commentary.

 

[EphelDuath]

The footnotes in the NAB seem fine to me, except for where it says Matthew misinterpreted an OT prophecy. That made my eyebrow raise.

 

[Lev23]

The Jews couldn’t recognize the Messiah, and yet some people rely on them to recognize the Scriptures (of course they completely rejected 27 books of Scripture that Protestants accept anyway).

.

What are you talking about? How long passed from when the Holy Spirit came on Pentecost and saved 3000 Jews that day to the day Peter went into Cornelius’s house? At one time the church was all Jews and they had no idea that a gentile could be saved. And after so, it was Jewish Christians that spread the gospel of Christ to the nations. So be careful how you use such a blanket statement that “Jews” couldn’t recognize Messiah.

Notworthy correctly singles out the self-appointed group of Jews at this council of Jamnia.

 

[djrakowski]

NEB, NJB, and RSV for starters. I’m sure there are a few others, and I know all the Jewish Publication Society translations render it as young woman also.

Quite surprisingly, the NAB translates it correctly, even though its chairman was openly disdainful of the idea, and of a messianic reading of the OT at all.

I’ve checked my Ignatius RSV-2nd CE, and it translates it as ‘virgin,’ with ‘young woman’ as a footnote. Can anyone confirm how this is translated in the older RSV-CE (I have an Oxford Reader’s Edition at home, but that’s not doing me any good as I sit in my office ).

 

[NotWorthy]

What are you talking about? How long passed from when the Holy Spirit came on Pentecost and saved 3000 Jews that day to the day Peter went into Cornelius’s house? At one time the church was all Jews and they had no idea that a gentile could be saved. And after so, it was Jewish Christians that spread the gospel of Christ to the nations. So be careful how you use such a blanket statement that “Jews” couldn’t recognize Messiah.

Notworthy correctly singles out the self-appointed group of Jews at this council of Jamnia.

Salvation came to us from the Jews.

Just as Gentiles have proven time and time again, some will accept His Teachings, and some will not. Not all Jews rejected Christ, or there wouldn’t be a Church, and not **only **Jews rejected Christ.

 

[Genesis315]

What are you talking about? How long passed from when the Holy Spirit came on Pentecost and saved 3000 Jews that day to the day Peter went into Cornelius’s house? At one time the church was all Jews and they had no idea that a gentile could be saved. And after so, it was Jewish Christians that spread the gospel of Christ to the nations. So be careful how you use such a blanket statement that “Jews” couldn’t recognize Messiah.

Notworthy correctly singles out the self-appointed group of Jews at this council of Jamnia.

I wasn’t talking about people of the Jewish race in general, as many did become Christians, but those who cling to the Jewish religion, rather than embracing the Messiah and the fulfillment of Israel, His Church. St. Paul says they have a veil over their hearts and that they have been blinded.

I should be more clear. When I say Jews, I always mean those who hold to the Jewish religion. I forget that many people take to mean a race.

 

[Lev23]

I’ve heard of the Council of Jamnia, where the Jews determined the OT Canon, eliminating the 7 deuterocanonicals. Other Christian faiths have used this as the basis for removing these same books from their Christian Canon. Although I’ve heard that Jamnia never even formalized a canon, that’s not the reason for my debate.

I was reading on AgapeBibleStudy.Com about Jamnia and saw an anti-Christian bias in the council’s actions. Let me illustrate:
Now, I ask you, if you follow the oft-repeated claim that the Jews are the authority of OT Scriptures, and you see how these same Jews changed the Scriptures to try to squash this new Christian Sect that was growing, is this the kind of authority you wish to rely on to determine OT Scriptures?!?!?

While I appreciate your research on this subject, we got to remember the Jewish community at Qumran. It is believed that they were still writing scrolls at the time of the Apostles, even though there is no evidence that they wrote of Jesus or were part of the church. But the scrolls they wrote represented a non-rabbinic form of Judaism, and was very messianic.

Their mission was preserving scripture instead of establishing a set of canonical books. But it is interesting and noteworthy to all Christians that some of the OT scripture found in the the caves include Tobit, Song of Songs, Sirach, Enoch, etc.

 

[NotWorthy]

While I appreciate your research on this subject, we got to remember the Jewish community at Qumran. It is believed that they were still writing scrolls at the time of the Apostles, even though there is no evidence that they wrote of Jesus or were part of the church. But the scrolls they wrote represented a non-rabbinic form of Judaism, and was very messianic.

Their mission was preserving scripture instead of establishing a set of canonical books. But it is interesting and noteworthy to all Christians that some of the OT scripture found in the the caves include Tobit, Song of Songs, Sirach, Enoch, etc.

What’s that got to do with the Jamnians(?) and their revisionist writings of the OT?

To your point, though, the Jewish community you described at Qumran sounds like the Jewish community prior to Jamnia. I know they were more in anticipation of the Messiah then the average Jew, all Jews at that time were basically a non-rabbinic form of Judaism for this type only came about after the destruction of the Temple in 70AD.

 

[Palladio]

I’ve checked my Ignatius RSV-2nd CE, and it translates it as ‘virgin,’ with ‘young woman’ as a footnote. Can anyone confirm how this is translated in the older RSV-CE (I have an Oxford Reader’s Edition at home, but that’s not doing me any good as I sit in my office ).

I think I see part of the problem, although I may not be able to express it clearly.

If we say young woman, we hear a time claim first, a sex (or gender) claim, too, and anything else, if anything else, second.

The first question is what the Hebrew meant.

In Latin, virgo means young woman, but equally one who has never had sex. Our word virgin renders this, but then applies as well to any such woman at any age, our own Blessed Virgin Mary being the alpha and omega of this.

In Latin, I believe, virgo is a non-problem because the Romans did not divorce maidenhood from maidenhead, as it were: without a doubt when Horace writes “virginibus puerisque canto,” he is assuming chaste young women and boys.

So the problem is perhaps just ours because young women now have sex before marriage in large numbers.

So the question becomes does the Hebrew convey, besides age, virginity.

I would imagine it does, because promiscuity in the young was frowned upon in antiquity in general and in the OT specifically.

 

[Joel_Tunnah]

And the greek septuagint, which was translated by jewish scholars 200 years before Christ, uses virgin. So, this wasn’t just ‘made up’ by Christians looking for a prophecy to mess with.