They do it their way

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I am curious as to why the American Bishops always have to change, add or modify the way we do things here in the U.S.

Take the new GIRM and the U.S. Adaptions. You can see all of them at this site and the adaptions are highlighted in bold.

Do they do this “just because they can” or is there a good reason for doing it their way.

I don’t suppose we are the only country who does this but I am more aware of it here because I live here. I do know Canada uses the Apostles Creed instead of the Nicene Creed in some dioceses.

adoremus.org/1002AmAdaptations.html

I think people really want to be obedient but I think they would like to know the “why” of these differences from country to country and diocese to diocese. The only answer I ever get is “Bishop’s choice”. Is that enough?
 
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deogratias:
I am curious as to why the American Bishops always have to change, add or modify the way we do things here in the U.S.

Take the new GIRM and the U.S. Adaptions. You can see all of them at this site and the adaptions are highlighted in bold.

Do they do this “just because they can” or is there a good reason for doing it their way.

I don’t suppose we are the only country who does this but I am more aware of it here because I live here. I do know Canada uses the Apostles Creed instead of the Nicene Creed in some dioceses.

adoremus.org/1002AmAdaptations.html

I think people really want to be obedient but I think they would like to know the “why” of these differences from country to country and diocese to diocese. The only answer I ever get is “Bishop’s choice”. Is that enough?
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You wouldn’t want our church to be like McDonalds would you? You know, a place where everything looks, smells, and tastes exactly the same. Where’s the variety? We can still follow the GIRM, and have defferences. Thats why you like attending mass at one parish and I like attending mass at another.
 
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deogratias:
I think you missed my point -
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Okay fine here is the answer. I think here in America we have a huge melting pot of people from different cultures that have different tastes. Probably more so than any other country. Because of that we have parishes that do things differently to provide a comfortable place for those people of different cultures. For example, there are churches that are predominately Black, Asian, or Irish. There certainly must be something that allows each parish to be more attentive to the people who attend. In Hawaii you will find things are very different to adhere to the local customs of the people. It’s the same in New Mexico in the Pueblo areas. I think I did get your point, I just chose to answer with a little humor and wit.
 
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deogratias:
I am curious as to why the American Bishops always have to change, add or modify the way we do things here in the U.S.
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Because we are the U.S. of A. - the world’s only superpower. We should be able to do things just the way we want. Church teachings? Not for us. We’ll decide what things we are willing to believe and what things are too inconvenient. Rome should be happy that we accept the guidance of the GIRM at all! :dancing:

And yes, I am being sarcastic, but sadly, I am probably not being terribly inaccurate. 😦
 
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deogratias:
I am curious as to why the American Bishops always have to change, add or modify the way we do things here in the U.S.

Take the new GIRM and the U.S. Adaptions. You can see all of them at this site and the adaptions are highlighted in bold.

Do they do this “just because they can” or is there a good reason for doing it their way.
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Seeing that these “U.S. Adaptions” in the GIRM have to be approved by Rome before they can be done, I do not look at it the way you do.

Rome has approved these “Adaptions” so it is how Rome wants the U.S. to do things.
 
These are all fairly minor points, most dealing with things stemming from affordability of expensive metals/marble, the tendency for all Catholic Churches in the US to have kneelers (this is not the case around the world.)

Note that these have been approved by the Vatican.
 
Here is what Vatican II said:

SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM said:
37. Even in the liturgy, the Church has no wish to impose a rigid uniformity in matters which do not implicate the faith or the good of the whole community; rather does she respect and foster the genius and talents of the various races and peoples. Anything in these peoples’ way of life which is not indissolubly bound up with superstition and error she studies with sympathy and, if possible, preserves intact. Sometimes in fact she admits such things into the liturgy itself, so long as they harmonize with its true and authentic spirit.
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hmm…could it be related to why we keep the English customary system and the rest use metric? Haha.
 
I wonder, sometimes, if people who are in charge of the Liturgy, feel they have to justify their position and the only way to do it is to make changes that according to them is “relevant.”
 
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Theodora:
I wonder, sometimes, if people who are in charge of the Liturgy, feel they have to justify their position and the only way to do it is to make changes that according to them is “relevant.”
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And seeing that these things are approved of by Rome then the Vatican also things that they are “relevant.”
 
Rich T - what you describe is probably a matter of inculturation - in specific, what in the changes made on that web site I posted, would you say falls into this category and in what way?
 
Bob - i agree this is how it seems and that is why I ask if anyone knows the reason for each of the changes made. In what way are they better or worse than the original GIRM that came from Rome? I have not seen that answer yet.
 
Byz
Rome has approved these “Adaptions” so it is how Rome wants the U.S. to do things
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True that Rome has “approved” the changes and that means they allow them but I can’t go so far as to say that is what they want - I think what they want was what they wrote in the first place but they allowed some of the changes proposed by the U.S. (but not all of them by the way)
 
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deogratias:
Rich T - what you describe is probably a matter of inculturation - in specific, what in the changes made on that web site I posted, would you say falls into this category and in what way?
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  1. *]Color of Altar Cloths
    *]Materials for Sacred Vessels

    Maybe not cultural, but definatley regional. They are allowing for change due to local customs. In number one, you may have a spanish mass where they use festive colors that are common the Hispanic culture. The same goes for number two. It may be common to use certain woods in areas where those woods come from. In my old parish back in California, we had a large Mexican population. We often celebrated certain masses together, such as Midnight mass and the Easter vigil. During these masses the readings were read in both languages and the music duties were also shared by both. I must say, the spanish music was always more festive.
 
Catholic 2003, your documentation pretty much supports what Rich T suggests. And this is inculturation. I must again state that in the document I referenced, I don’t see any cultural changes.

For instance - I could see the need for vessels of clay and baskets of straw in a country where access to precious metal was unavailable - and indeed may hold true here for native American tribes, etc.

I posted this question more to get some dialogue going than anything else and to get people interested in the changes and the whys of them… Now the original web site I posted were only proposed changes.

An excellent article appears on the Catholic Answers Main page which does explain and elaborate on many of the changes made in the new GIRM catholic.com/library/liturgy/cag_changes.asp

Particularly of interest is the notation that
The previous edition of the GIRM was released in 1975, but in 2000 Pope John Paul II released a new edition, which was slightly modified in 2002. This new edition of the GIRM was substantially the same as the prior one but had many small changes made to improve the quality of liturgical celebrations and clarify matters that previously were ambiguous.
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Most national conferences of bishops petition Rome for local “adaptations” of the liturgy to be used in their countries. Rome must approve these adaptations before they have force of law. The United States had such a set of adaptations under the 1975 GIRM, but they needed to be redrafted and resubmitted with the release of the new GIRM.
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So any adaptions made in the previous GIRM have to be resubmitted for this one and should we have another GIRM from Rome, all the previous adaptions would also have to be resubmitted. Therefore not all adaptions are new.

Forgive me for “playing” Devils Advocate but it does get our brains in motion, doesn’t it:)

If anyone wishes to see the entire new GIRM including the U.S. adaptions - see here

usccb.org/liturgy/current/revmissalisromanien.htm
 
Rich T - that’s right. Thanks for thinking and following through with this.
 
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deogratias:
Rich T - that’s right. Thanks for thinking and following through with this.
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Were you an art teacher in a former life? Or maybe it was philosophy. Anyway, I hate to say it, but my first post was based on an assumption that the link you provided would offer evidence to back my post up. I should say that changes due to local customs do indicate that changes could also be for cultural reasons. Like the altar cloths. Certain cultures may change the colors due to a particular holiday they are celebrating. Definately cultural. And as you said yourself, certain native american peoples may use clay as a sign of thier culture.

Interesting thought, we use clay cups to distribute the precious Blood for our outdoor masses. The thought is that they are easier to replace if broken, and certainly more cost effective than a cup made of precious metal. We have been told that the diocese is not happy with that choice. Here in the southwest, we can certainly say that clay is representative of the local culture. Hmmm…
 
Former life - LOL - I don’t think we believe in that. But in this life, I did very well in my philosophy classes - and I am an artist, does that count?

Ah yes, I forgot about your “outdoor Masses”. I am surprised they are needed at your parish since it is so large and has a capacity to hold so many. Other than Christmas and Easter, do you have many other outdoor Masses?

What is the justification and ruling on outdoor Masses - I truly don’t know but thought it was to be an exception.
 
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deogratias:
Former life - LOL - I don’t think we believe in that. But in this life, I did very well in my philosophy classes - and I am an artist, does that count?

Ah yes, I forgot about your “outdoor Masses”. I am surprised they are needed at your parish since it is so large and has a capacity to hold so many. Other than Christmas and Easter, do you have many other outdoor Masses?

What is the justification and ruling on outdoor Masses - I truly don’t know but thought it was to be an exception.
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We only do outdoor masse as you say for Easter, and Thanksgiving. Our parish does have 3 masses at each time slot for Easter, one inside, one outside, and one at the high school across the street. We do also have an overflow mass outdoors in the fall when the weather is good, and because our masses are usually very full (standing room only) this helps quite a bit. Otherwise we only use the amphitheater for concerts, and other special events.

As fas being an artist, your comment reminded me of a photo instructor I had in college. I was taking a rather intense portfolio course one semester. Everytime I would bring a print out of the darkroom for the teacher’s thoughts, he would just look at me and say, “Rich, have you really thought it through? Have you given it every bit of yourself?” I would normally just look at him, tear up the print and go back to work. He really brought a lot out of his students.
 
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