They hate us, they really hate us

[FAB]

I hope you’ll forgive me, I’m new to the Catholic faith after all, but some of these posts bother me. I’m open to traditions of the Church, I love the tradition in fact, or would likely not have become Catholic! I’m open to embracing older devotions (if only I could find the time! Still trying to plan time for a daily Rosary devotion), but at some point i have to agree with the poster who said worship God, not worship itself. I understand a little Latin, but not enough to know what’s going on and meaningfully participate in a TLM. And as a convert from Baptist/non-denomenationalism, maybe my perspective on this ought to at least be worth considering: a TLM would be very unwelcoming to me and any others not fluent in Latin (pretty much everyone on Earth in other words!), and, not being able to participate or understand anything in the mass would probably have meant I would not have become Catholic…there is nothing magical about Latin people. And I’m all for a reverent, traditional liturgy! But there is nothing base or lowly about conducting worship in a language people actually know and speak. Latin is a beautiful sounding language, but it it a human language, and nothing more. It did not come from on high, humans made Latin, just like English or any other language…and Latin is a DEAD language at that…I’m not getting why this has become such a divisive issue. If you like a TLM, fine…but taking on airs about nuns who aren’t in formal habits all the time or people worshiping in the language they actually know and speak seems more than a little judgmental and formalist. I seem to remember Jesus taking issue with this sort of legalism in his day. Flame away, I’m sure I’ve asked for it!

First Welcome Home to the Church.
Those who call themselves traditionalist are a small but vocal group. In most any parish if you ask about going back to the TLM the response is no. Most strongly from those who grew up with that mass and do not want to see it’s return. The Church is allowing the TLM as an alternative for those who do want to use that mass to worship, there is little chance that it will become mainstream. My reasoning is the issuance of the 3rd revision of the Roman Missal. If there was any inkling of a return, it would have been in it.
There is an effort to make the liturgy more sacred, and a part of that is achieved in the high English contained in the missal. It also is causing all those involved in the liturgy to look more closely on how it is being done. All these things are very good developments and also ensure that the ordinary form will be part of Church tradition for a very long time.

 

[Iotaunum]

To the OP:

My thoughts are that you will just have to accept the fact that tradition in the Church is being persecuted from all directions and will continue to be so at least in the near future. As for the so-called “haters” as any traditionally minded Catholic knows, we do not hate them. We can only speculate as to their reasons and motivation for obstructing and overturning anything which smells of tradition in the Church. I have for years been dumbfounded to see the absolute resistance and opposition to the Latin Mass and traditional Catholic theology from laity to the hierarchy. I have spoken many many times with priests and Bishops from all parts of the world and theologians concerning their “take” on the Latin mass and traditional Catholic theology. I have to admit that despite my research and effort I am still at a loss to explain how much opposition there is and its root causes. I have had auxiliary bishops tell me that it would indeed be a sad day for them if the Latin Mass were to become the norm again! Usually when someone is not “opposed” as such, we find that they welcome a Latin Mass once a month for a different flavour. Yes is is beautiful, they admit - as though cosmetics and aesthetics were the only deciding factor.

Regarding the nun you saw, I will not give the details but I have experienced the same and worse. Why won’t the clergy wear their garbs? How do they expect to be treated with the respect due to a servant of God when they try so very hard to appear to be a layman? They want to dress as lay men/women and do the things that they do.

Try reading a section from a dogmatic theology manual or any other text used in seminaries before the 60’s or try telling people that you want the Old Mass back at your parish and you will see the reaction you get. They respond nine times out of ten as if you are of an entirely different religion, but they stop short of trying to engage in ecumenism with you as they do with the other religions.

What saddens me the most is the fact that most people couldn’t care less. They want an easier life. If liberalisms of all sorts are practiced under the Bishop, then those people will hold that you are a dissenter and rebel for objecting. So long as the Pope does it and the Bishops allow it, they maintain that it is perfectly fine. No amount of infallible dogmatic pronouncements will impact such as these, for they hold that changes are inevitable and good. The simple fact is that the errors the Popes have warned us of are now rife, and it is no surprise given how holy and intelligent these Popes were and how we ignored their warnings.

 

[marthaferretti]

Ten to twelve years ago there was no licit Mass said in Latin, so the nun, who so far has not been afforded the right to speak in her own defense, was correct.

@stylies

This is factually untrue. There were numerous licit TLM’s worldwide. FSSP, ICRSS, etc.,. In the US alone there was about 100 licit weekly TLMs at that time.

 

[archangel04]

The nastiness really started with the thread’s title before it even moved into the body. Ten to twelve years ago there was no licit Mass said in Latin, so the nun, who so far has not been afforded the right to speak in her own defense, was correct. “Gimmicks” and “looks could kill” and “strongly suspected reactions” sound strongly subjective.

That is not true! There were many licit masses said in Latin, including the OF. The previous popes have said mass in Latin. You comments you have stated truly have made you look ignonrant, and I am sorry to use that word becuase I dislike using it, but you have just come on here and attcked many people uncluding their style of worship. The OP was simply stating what he fealt from the Nun, and even heard her say.

First, the OP was not attacking anyone, nor was he denigrating the OF, people are just seeing what they want to see in order to use that as an excuse to post harsh comments and make themselves looks charitable at the same time. Why am I not surprise to see the usual poster who tend to comment harshly on previous threads on this particular thread? His question was sincere one. He was not even attacking Theology on Tap. Some of the comments on here have just proven the OP’s point. Ws he generalizing when he states that “they hate us”? I don’t know, but the fact is that there are some few who dislike tradition or even worst those who head towards a more traditional path.

Second, Latin is the official language of the Church, her official documents are always printed in Latin first everything else second. Even the mass was printed out in Latin first, so for anyone to have a big problem with Latin language is to have a problem with the Church’s language.

 

[TrueLight]

Martha,

The nun’s reaction might also be due to the way you explained this section. What else did you say?

I then went on to explain that the TLM was the Mass the Church celebrated worldwide prior to the NO Mass being promulgated in 1969 by Pope Paul VI. I strongly suspected the reaction I’d get from the nun prior to making my announcement and I ended up being correct in my suspicions.

Since the majority attended the OF at that time and even now, if someone came and started talking about the mass that should be offered (even if you didn’t say it, I’m sure the implication was there), then it is understandable that she would take it as a personal judgment.

You know what I mean?

 

[archangel04]

To the OP…why even post about the hostility towards the TLM of a nun when you have hostility right here on a traditional forum ironically enough. “Worshiping worship” is a terrible line and shame on you who acknowledge such a venomous post. I have seriously lost all interest in the traditional forum as it has become a place of snipers who shoot down anything traditional as in pre-vatican II or should I say vipers? I know it’s the internet but show some class people…class.

I agree it was this forum and some people I know personally that really pushed me away from the faith. I kept thinking, the people that attck me always make me feel stupid, and that by me choosing to follow a more traditional route was just a way to try to make myself seem “holier than thou”.

Does “on my own” mean that you do whatever you want? I’m just trying to understand what you mean.

As I mention to rben, this forum and some memebers really pushed me away from the faith, but also my pride just make me feel as if what’s the point in continuing if everyting around this world is nothing but hypocracy, liberal theology (non politics), and living a lifestyle that everything is acceptable. There was a thread i posted while back about me just quiting, hence the on my own title. But from doing prayer and speaking with a certain Franciscan who has helped me see that there is more to tradition than the exterior I realize I should not give up. I realize that those attacks are gifts from God, and I offer it to Him. I am a young man, so I can handle it. BTW thanks for reminding me of the that, I am going to change it right now

 

[marthaferretti]

If I may, I have to ask, as I have before on these threads where you pull the pin and throw a grenade into the Traditional forum, why are you posting about incidents that occurred in the last century?

So, you went to a contemporary gathering of people interested in learning about the Catholic Church in an informal environment. You then, during a request for announcements, beat the drum about the TLM and cast aspersions on the Mass each and every one of these people were either attending or thinking about attending.

What reaction would you expect? I would consider you someone with an agenda trying to hijack my meeting and turn people off from the Church.

How has confrontation been working for you? Do you find you are successful bringing people over to your way of thinking?

Well Paul you completely mischaracterize the announcement I made and the manner in which it was made.

Making an announcement about the formation of a new chapter of a completely legitimate worldwide Catholic lay organization is somehow ‘beating a drum’ (whatever that means). Briefly explaining the history of the TLM and the promulgation of the Novus Ordo Mass since few if any in attendance were alive in 1969 is somehow to ‘cast aspersions’ on the NO Mass.

Characterizing this all as ‘confrontation’.

Rather amazing.

 

[ProVobis]

… my first mass was a TLM. Even though I didn’t understand the Latin, I understood the reverence and that was enough to humble me and show me a glimpse into heaven.

Good for you in seeing things for what they are.

If the priest just sat or stood there for an hour whispering Latin (or any other language for that matter) that would be one thing.

But the fact is that rubrics/body language (Standing at the foot of the altar, kissing the relics, genuflecting, bowing, epistle side, gospel side, striking the breast, signs of the cross, etc.) speak very loudly as well. People typically rejecting Latin reject all these rubrics as well, otherwise they would accept the EF in its proper perspective. It’s all part of an educational process and unfortunately not too many would bother to take the time to learn these rubrics, never mind the Latin.

 

[marthaferretti]

Martha,

The nun’s reaction might also be due to the way you explained this section. What else did you say?

Since the majority attended the OF at that time and even now, if someone came and started talking about the mass that should be offered (even if you didn’t say it, I’m sure the implication was there), then it is understandable that she would take it as a personal judgment.

You know what I mean?

You completely mischaracterize what I wrote.

I never wrote on this forum, said or implied during my announcement at the meeting that the TLM is the Mass that ‘should’ be offered. What I said is what I wrote - a brief history of the TLM and the fact that the Novus Ordo Mass was promulgated in 1969 by Pope Paul VI.

Some of the comments on here really make me wonder how people come to their conclusions. It’s as though they want to read something where nothing is even implied much less even stated.

 

[FAB]

My preference for the OF would be in Latin (per Vatican II) QUOTE]

mmm, Per Vatican II, don’t think so since the documents call for the mass to be in the venacular.

 

[laszlo]

Well it’s the magisterium that named the mass of Paul VI the Novus Ordo, so take it up with them. To assume that everyone that uses the shorthand NO is implying the word no is something only you can control in your mind.

There was an I believe Chinese company, the abbreviation of their name was exactly the more vulgar English name of the female genital. Somebody found it interesting to use, for puplic protest they stopped it.

The Apostolic See understood that abusive people abuse whatever is possible, so the name officially is changed to Ordinary form. There is nothing wrong with the abbreviation OF, or use the new rite, new form, but not the abbreviation which suggest the pejorative no Mass.

For me, and for the Catholics, every valid Mass is the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, to use name which suggest pejorative is offending us. This should be regular courtesy, toward those who still believe that every valid Mass is the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

 

[paddy22]

ProVobis;7942699:

My preference for the OF would be in Latin (per Vatican II) QUOTE]

mmm, Per Vatican II, don’t think so since the documents call for the mass to be in the venacular.

You are not correct. Vatican II allowed it - it didn’t require it.

 

[corsair]

I admire you, Martha, for your courage. Keep up the great work.
God Bless

 

[MarkThompson]

And, might I add, that this is a language set apart and used only for the worship of God (ecclesiastical Latin, not the Latin used by lawyers or doctors, you know, those dead professions ). The beauty of using a language that does not change, is that you never risk an incorrect interpretation based on current language changes. Take the word “gay” for example - it certainly does not mean today what it meant decades ago!

~Liza

This is mistaken on both counts. First, the Church has never “set apart” Latin and used it “only for the worship of God.” The Church uses Latin for tons of mundane purposes, such as keeping records, issuing congratulatory certificates, appointing people to various jobs, and virtually anything else you can think of. Don’t forget the Latin ATM at the Vatican – how’s that for a secular purpose!

Second, lawyers and doctors do not really “use Latin.” There are a comparatively small number of Latin words and phrases which those professions have retained and must be memorized (habeas corpus, in forma pauperis, nolo contendere), but no lawyer or doctor would ever have to read a paragraph of Latin or form a sentence in Latin.

Second, Latin is the official language of the Church, her official documents are always printed in Latin first everything else second.

Generally, but certainly not always. Notable exceptions include Tra le Sollecitudini (Pius X, Italian), Mit brennender Sorge (Pius XII, German), and Comme le prevoit (Consilium, French).

 

[ProVobis]

mmm, Per Vatican II, don’t think so since the documents call for the mass to be in the venacular.

And what if the only Mass around you is completely in a vernacular you don’t understand?

Then it looks like it’s back to square one for you.

 

[TrueLight]

You completely mischaracterize what I wrote.

I never wrote on this forum, said or implied during my announcement at the meeting that the TLM is the Mass that ‘should’ be offered. What I said is what I wrote - a brief history of the TLM and the fact that the Novus Ordo Mass was promulgated in 1969 by Pope Paul VI.

Some of the comments on here really make me wonder how people come to their conclusions. It’s as though they want to read something where nothing is even implied much less even stated.

First of all, relax.

I’m not mischaracterizing anything. I’m asking is it possible that in your explanation, of the TLM, which she probably did not expect, might have come across as judgemental. Sometimes things come across in a way we don’t expect.

I’m not against you. I prefer the TLM.

 

[laszlo]

What I said is what I wrote - a brief history of the TLM and the fact that the Novus Ordo Mass was promulgated in 1969 by Pope Paul VI.

In your view what is the history of the TLM?

By many liturgists, the 1970 Mass is much closer to the Medieval Mass than the TLM, St Pius V made a radical change, forcing the reformed Roman Rite on the whole Catholic word (except a few dioceses as exceptions)

 

[The_Old_Medic]

I do not, in any way, shape or form, hate the traditions of the Church. I do not hate the Latin Mass, the Tridentine Mass, the Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament, the Liturgy of the Hours, or any other prayers or celebrations of the pre-Vatican II Church.

I converted into the pre-Vatican II Church. I bother lo actually learn the Latin of the Mass (both the Propers and the ordinary. I sang in Choirs at Mass, Benediction, etc from LONG before I was baptized. I love the old liturgy, and in some ways, I miss it.

BUT, I also recognize that the vast majority of the world did not understand it, could not participate in it, and that it is MUCH better to have all religious services in the language that the people can actually understand.

I VIVIDLY remember what those old Masses were like. Most people either had a glazed look in their eyes, as they went through the motions of standing, kneeling or sitting as the bells told them to do; or they buried their noses in a Missal, attempting to read their way through the Mass, and the saw nothing and participated in nothing.

The people almost NEVER sang, unless the song was “Immaculate Mary” or “Holy God We Praise Thy Name”. They did NOT sing the Latin music, including at Benediction.

They didn’t even have a clue what the Priest was saying when he gave them a blessing. It might just as well have been in Urdu, for all the people knew.

Latin was appropriate when most of the people of the church actually spoke Latin.

What I hate, what I REALLY hate are the misguided folks that are attempting to reimpose Latin on the Church. Thankfully, they are a very tiny minority, and their influence is miniscule at best. (No I don’t really hate any of you.)

The VAST majority of those advocating a return to Latin were not even alive before Vatican II. They have no memory of a Latin Mass, they just know that it is beautiful (and it is), and can not see that part of its appeal is because it is NOT the norm.

It would be a whole different thing if every Mass, every day, was in Latin again. The vast majority of Catholics in this world would revolt (and rightfully so).

 

[laszlo]

I do not, in any way, shape or form, hate the traditions of the Church. I do not hate the Latin Mass, the Tridentine Mass, the Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament, the Liturgy of the Hours, or any other prayers or celebrations of the pre-Vatican II Church.

I converted into the pre-Vatican II Church. I bother lo actually learn the Latin of the Mass (both the Propers and the ordinary. I sang in Choirs at Mass, Benediction, etc from LONG before I was baptized. I love the old liturgy, and in some ways, I miss it.

BUT, I also recognize that the vast majority of the world did not understand it, could not participate in it, and that it is MUCH better to have all religious services in the language that the people can actually understand.

I VIVIDLY remember what those old Masses were like. Most people either had a glazed look in their eyes, as they went through the motions of standing, kneeling or sitting as the bells told them to do; or they buried their noses in a Missal, attempting to read their way through the Mass, and the saw nothing and participated in nothing.

The people almost NEVER sang, unless the song was “Immaculate Mary” or “Holy God We Praise Thy Name”. They did NOT sing the Latin music, including at Benediction.

They didn’t even have a clue what the Priest was saying when he gave them a blessing. It might just as well have been in Urdu, for all the people knew.

Latin was appropriate when most of the people of the church actually spoke Latin.

What I hate, what I REALLY hate are the misguided folks that are attempting to reimpose Latin on the Church. Thankfully, they are a very tiny minority, and their influence is miniscule at best. (No I don’t really hate any of you.)

The VAST majority of those advocating a return to Latin were not even alive before Vatican II. They have no memory of a Latin Mass, they just know that it is beautiful (and it is), and can not see that part of its appeal is because it is NOT the norm.

It would be a whole different thing if every Mass, every day, was in Latin again. The vast majority of Catholics in this world would revolt (and rightfully so).

Amen

 

[lo_amo87]

All I wish for is maybe once or twice a month, if my church did a TLM. I’ve never seen one and I think it would be wonderful and beautiful. However, I do like understanding what the priest is saying. I have done vespers with my husband and our monk friend and he does it in Latin most of the time. It does carry a very solemn feel to it and I love it. But it is a relief when we do vespers in english (it goes faster too since DH and I aren’t stumbling through our responses )

I will never understand the hostility surrounding all this. We all know the Church will never return to TLMs only. So there’s no need to be scared. But having them available to those who have a special love for them is certainly appropriate and should be encouraged!