"They" (the Church) will tell you what to think!

[Tim_Kirchoff]

St. Paul flatly says that those who practice homosexual acts shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven. And Jesus told His Apostles that whoever hears them, hears Him.

Quite true. Over and over again, the early Church repeats that, although the dietary laws and the practice of circumcision were not being continued, the rules regarding sexual morality remained.

 

[j2c99]

She needs to read on what and how pervasive moral relativism is. She needs to understand how moral relativism is what kept the schism between the Catholic Church and all its rogue splinter cells in the Reformation. Refer her to either one of these books, both are highly acclaimed:

“A Refutation of Moral Relativism” - Peter Kreeft
amazon.com/Refutation-Moral-Relativism-Interviews-Absolutist/dp/0898707315/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1246908712&sr=8-4

“Relativism: Feet Firmly Planted in Mid-Air” - Francis Beckwith
amazon.com/Relativism-Feet-Firmly-Planted-Mid-Air/dp/0801058066/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1246908834&sr=1-1

 

[sixofseven]

What a wonderfully kind post. Thank you!

I think the core of the problem for her (my mother) is that in her mind it’s the politically- charged issues that truly bother her.

She says things like: “well, Jesus never said anything about homosexuality, or homosexual marriage, but we are specifically commanded by him to love, so the Church is arrogant and authoritarian in trying to tell us what to think about these things. Those teachings are man-made things that are rooted in backward societies - not in the teachings of Christ.” Etc.

In her mind, I guess, if Christ didn’t say it, it was merely & arbitrarily “made up” by the Church. Do you see what I mean?

I know exactly what you mean, my friend says the same thing - Paul can say this, John can say that, but what did Jesus say? It’s Jesus’ own words that mean more to my friend.

I think sometimes people are afraid to trust other men - because we’re all sinners, we’re all fallible. What we should encourage these people to do is to trust Jesus, let’s use his words:

“Upon this rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell will never prevail against it” Matthew 16:18 - that’s some pretty good assurance!
“Receive the Holy Spirit; whatever sins you forgive, they are forgiven, whatever sins you retain, they are retained.” John 20:21-23 - Jesus trusts them, why shouldn’t we?
“What is easier to say? ‘Your sins are forgiven’ or ‘Take up your mat and walk’ - but that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins” Mark 2:8-10 - did He say Son of MAN?
“Feed my sheep” John 21:17 - Jesus wants them to look after the flock
“He who listens to you listens to Me, and he who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me.” Luke 10:16 - Jesus wants us to listen to them, because we are in fact listening to Him when we hear them.
“My prayer is not for them alone [the twelve]. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.” John 17:20 - Jesus is praying for us!!! He is praying that we will listen to them!

Jesus is telling us it’s ok - He is with us always, He will not leave us orphans, He has sent the Holy Spirit and He has entrusted His mission to the Church.

Jesus, I trust in you.

 

[1ke]

One of her constant refrains was that “they” (Church hierarchy, etc.) tell you what to think.

There are two kinds of people in this world:

(1) Those that think God should conform to the way they see it.
(2) Those that think they should conform to how God sees it.

(1) Relativism
(2) Objective truth

Call it what you like, those are the only two possibilities. Catholics, at least those who choose Catholicism, have studied these two propositions and decided upon #2. Therefore, they do not see what the Church proposes as “telling them what to do” but rather as “reality, as it is.”

That’s what took me from Episcopalian to Catholic: the realization that objective truth exists and there is only one place to find it.

 

[1ke]

Well, see, in her mind “they” will tell her what to think about, say, abortion, homosexual marriage, etc. There is some truth to this.

I say to her that “they” are only trying to tell you the truth about these things, which has been carefully hidden from you.

This to her is still authoritarian. I guess she sees all “teaching” as authoritarian? Poor mother!

Perhaps engage her on theological topics that are not moral in nature first.

The Church teaches that God is a Trinity of Persons. Is it telling her what to think in this regard? The Church teaches that Christ is fully human and fully divine. Is it telling her what to think in this regard? So, how are those things which come from Christ’s teachings in the moral area different from those teachings regarding the Faith? Upon what does she base that? (Of course, if she’s read any of the truly liberal C of E clergy, she may not even be convinced of these fundamental truths of Christianity such as the Trinity, Incarnation, etc, since some now deny it).

Honestly, relativism is very hard to overcome. And, since it’s the bedrock upon which the Church of England has constructed itself-- a big tent where everyone can believe what they want and still be part of the Communion it’s almost impossible to root out. It’s like they are looking through some weird glasses where everything is green or something-- and prying the glasses off their eyes is almost impossible.

Thank God I escaped that horrible existence!

Maybe some of Frank Sheed’s books would be a good place to start. He’s so readable, and yet so deep at the same time.

 

[fhansen]

I have been wrestling with my own decision with whether to convert to Catholicism for many years now. Coming from the anglo side, I’ve been discovering in my reading that there are a great many myths and fears about Catholicism, most of which are seriously skewed bits of misinformation. A veritable PR nightmare!

Over the 4th, I was discussing this decision with my Mother, who was imploring me to stay “Anglo-side” of Catholicism.

One of her constant refrains was that “they” (Church hierarchy, etc.) tell you what to think.

I was trying to say that it’s precisely the lack of the Mysterium that’s getting “our” church into trouble. That it’s not about them “telling” parishioners what to think, but about guiding souls away from the world that, in fact, DOES tell you what to think - and that what it tells you leads you away from the Truth, and is harmful. What is wrong with “teaching” the truth? Et cetera…

However, all this ^^ to her still sounds “authoritarian.”

How can I explain this better? Is there a good book I can send her (after reading it myself!!! )

Thanks all!

Cheers & happy 4th! ~cawbs

The CC has been given the truth-Gods’ revelation-and tells or proclaims that truth to all: believers, non-believers, layman and hierarchy alike. It’s our choice whether or not to accept it. All religions/denominations do this in one way or another, BTW, or else they’d have nothing whatsoever to offer.

 

[TMaria]

There are two kinds of people in this world:

(1) Those that think God should conform to the way they see it.
(2) Those that think they should conform to how God sees it.

(1) Relativism
(2) Objective truth

People who choose objective truth are becoming a minority. Relativism is pervasive and deeply rooted in our hedonistic, pleasure-seeking culture, even in Christian churches. The scientific method of determining truth and getting results has become the only criteria for determining whether something is or can be true. If something can’t be subjected to the scientific method, we are taught it can’t be True or Real. That is what is promulgated and taught by educators and the intellengtsia in our culture. (Yet no one ever seems to question whether that belief is true! It certainly hasn’t been proven by anyone and I think it’s based on nothing more than opinion and belief.) We’re taught in our schools and by society that there is no objective standard of truth and belief in God and His commandments is a personal and subjective belief which can’t be imposed on others. All religions are equal and we are left judge and choose our beliefs based on feelings. We pick and choose what we do or don’t want to believe, based on personal opinion, preference and what we think makes us happy. Christians long ago ran away and abandoned the playing field and left public education and discussion to the securlarists and IMO are almost equally to blame. It didn’t take long after that for relativism to invade Christian churches, even the Catholic Church.

I encounter relativism with family and friends every day. It’s hard to get through to people who believe God is a personal preference and anyone who chooses the authoritarian Catholic Church is borderline crazy! I’m told the Church is rigid and outdated. I get asked the same question “by what right do ‘they’ tell you what to think and believe?” What you may need to do with your mom is help her question her worldview and why she thinks morality is personal and why God and his commandments and what the Church teaches are beliefs that can be changed over time and at whim. Other than that, stand firm and pray for your mom!

 

[Nino]

Not quite…The Church teaches you HOW to think! A huge difference…after all Jesus did not hold one conference with his apostles…'say fellas, I was thinking about this new doctrine…lets discuss it a while then have a vote on it! As a retired HS teacher I taught my students how to think and also what truths they should follow…we had very few votes on my subject that I was better informed on then any of them! Imagine if I were 2000 years old,I doubt if anyone would dare challenge me…they might have to talk quite loudly and clearly because of my age…but what the heck…this is what ruined the unity of Christianity…Luther and his ‘one can interpret as one wishes’ bit…it has been chaos since…oh I see a hand up…well go if you have to go…and dont let me hear you went down to the cafe instead of…

 

[Don_L]

Let’s hope they’ll tell us what to think. Who needs a God that would let his flock of sheep wander aimlessly and then hold the sheep responsible for being eaten by the wolves?

I want firm information and absolute dogma and the free will to accept it or not. Without that, there can be no faith, just speculation. Faith isn’t guessing what’s right - it’s knowing it, based upon acceptance of a specific body of truth. Look at the destruction this world of relative truth has wrought.
I had a professor in the Fifties who used this very idea on me -“The pope tells you Catholics how to vote.” I went to the library and came out armed with dozens of encyclicals and papal bulls and learned to, not only refute his nonsense, but to really learn my faith at a time in life when most of the other students were being swayed by the Godless professors, because their faith was based upon everything, but fixed truth.

Even today, so called Christians shop for a minister or priest who will NOT tell them the things they don’t want to hear -lest they be called to change their sinful lives.

 

[Nino]

thats what our ole friend ,the horny monk pushed…relativisim is whatever you feel is ok for the moment do it…this silly and demonic saying was used by the new agers back then when they waddeled to woodstock and inhaled all the fumes from the pit of hell itself! The constant glorification of a pedophile the last several days proves my point…heres one sick dude who bragged on teevee that he liked to sleep with little boys,he had to pay a law suit off of some 22 million dollars ,he was a hopeless druggy,his nose kept falling off,he bleached his skin and did ‘dances’ on the stage that we used to call bumps and qrinds in the burlesque days …now a new cottage industry is born…like that scene when the boys went to that island and turned into little donkeys…what is soooo disgusting of course is the silence of the sheep ,I mean the lambs.whatever…how many RCC bishops made statements condemning the glorification of MJ…I hope I have enough blank paper to copy all of the names…so please talk slow…how many RCC bishops condemned the glorification of this pedophile…let me count the ways…

 

[Don_L]

Nino

…how many RCC bishops condemned the glorification of this pedophile…let me count the ways…

Reminds me of Holy Thursday when the apostle scattered like frightened sheep, but our guys have received the Holy Spirit, and still they scatter like frightened sheep at the first wolf howl. People (200 plus bishops) who fear speaking out about their Church honoring an advocate of infanticide at a Catholic College, certainly fear using those mitres to herd the sheep and beat off the wolves, in frightened hopes that no one notices the dwindling herd.

 

[Worthy5]

Well, see, in her mind “they” will tell her what to think about, say, abortion, homosexual marriage, etc. There is some truth to this.

I say to her that “they” are only trying to tell you the truth about these things, which has been carefully hidden from you.

This to her is still authoritarian. I guess she sees all “teaching” as authoritarian? Poor mother!

I was going to say, " tell you what to think" well what is the point of having the Church to begin with then. But it is not telling " you what to think", when I read the Church’s position on something that is what I want-a perspective that is different then secular or wordly opinion. It is a free country, I can decide I just do not want to believe in it or accept it. But here is a further point (all of which may have been made I did not read all of the posts) the role of the Church is to discern and teach the Christian ideal-following the life of Christ. Now, that is hard work to follow for sure-we all sin but that does not mean I do not want to or better that I do not need to hear where I am coming up short.

Further, and this is something often left out and protestants cannot accept of course, divine revelation by Christ takes two forms-1) Scripture 2) Apostolic succession. You should be a Catholic because Christ charge the apostles with a teaching authoirty-that " they who hear you" " hear me". You want to know Christ-know the Church.

I want someone to tell me what to think and how to act because I am a weak person many times over. I need guidance. Chesterton was right on when he said I do not need a Church to tell me I am right, I need one that tells me I am wrong when I think I am right.

God Bless

 

[caoimhin]

Having been involved with Protestant Evangelicalism my whole adult life (i.e. some 20 years), it is my opinion that the same theological minimalism --insisting only on a handful of non-negotiable or foundational doctrines while allowing freedom in the rest-- is actually leading the Evangelical world toward the same relativism that has infected liberal Protestantism and rendered it irrelevant.

“The Church tells you what to think”? I would say that the Church tells you how it is. We can respond to that by not even bothering to understand why the Church teaches what it does because it differs from our own opinions or tastes, or we can do some digging and find good reasons why the Church says what it does. Scripture tells us,

These Jews were more receptive than those in Thessalonica, for they welcomed the message very eagerly and examined the scriptures every day to see whether these things were so. Acts 17:11 (NRSV)

But test everything; hold fast to what is good;1 Thessalonians 5:21 (NRSV)

As a Protestant I applied these in a somewhat mistaken manner and unconsciously adopted the attitude that I didn’t have to believe something until it made sense to me. A Catholic friend pointed out to me that this forced me and every other person to “reinvent the wheel” of Christian doctrine each generation in contrast to God’s entrusting the faith “once for all to the saints” (Jude 3). Now I can look back over the past *-isms *of the secular world and the doctrines and emphases of the “Bible only” churches and see how fast they arise and then get discarded, and by contrast see how the Church’s teaching remains constant and yet astonishingly relevant to new situations and ideas. The former shows the finite nature of conventional human wisdom in the way it reacts to things and its deficiencies are revealed with advancing human knowledge. I think it was astronomer Robert Jastrow who remarked that when the band of scientists finally after much effort scales the pinnacle of human knowledge they will encounter a group of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.

So for me there came a point when I recognized how limited and provisional was the knowledge that I could discover and embrace on my own, in contrast to all that would remain unknown to me yet true and real. The reality is that we all take some things that are told to us by others on faith, whether it’s the roundness of the Earth or the efficacy of a medication or global warming or a million other things. So I have decided to trust the only entity in the world with a 2000 year track record of being proved right in its description and explanation of reality: the Catholic Church. (Of course I am referring to its received dogmas, non its non-dogmatic judgments, such as those made in Galileo’s time.)

By way of contrast, I recall reading some time ago someone commenting on Islam and how it has no tradition of apologetics, because its argument historically has been the edge of a sword. The Church has a 2000 year tradition of appealing to one’s mind (and heart and will) and it still does. Its teaching authority is not oppressive but simply the refusal to commit the intellectual suicide that is relativism.

 

[holy_moly]

What a wonderfully kind post. Thank you!

I think the core of the problem for her (my mother) is that in her mind it’s the politically- charged issues that truly bother her.

She says things like: “well, Jesus never said anything about homosexuality, or homosexual marriage, but we are specifically commanded by him to love, so the Church is arrogant and authoritarian in trying to tell us what to think about these things. Those teachings are man-made things that are rooted in backward societies - not in the teachings of Christ.” Etc.

In her mind, I guess, if Christ didn’t say it, it was merely & arbitrarily “made up” by the Church. Do you see what I mean?

In Mt 18, Jesus tells ‘men’, “Whatever you bind & loose on earth, so it is in heaven.” This gives authority to the Apostles & through succession to the modern day RCC. Does she believe in Apostolic succession? If so, this may help; if not, I’ll keep searching!:aok:

 

[Convert66]

Originally Posted by Micawber
What a wonderfully kind post. Thank you!

I think the core of the problem for her (my mother) is that in her mind it’s the politically- charged issues that truly bother her.

She says things like: “well, Jesus never said anything about homosexuality, or homosexual marriage, but we are specifically commanded by him to love, so the Church is arrogant and authoritarian in trying to tell us what to think about these things. Those teachings are man-made things that are rooted in backward societies - not in the teachings of Christ.” Etc.

In her mind, I guess, if Christ didn’t say it, it was merely & arbitrarily “made up” by the Church. Do you see what I mean?

Pederasty was in common practice during Christ’s time on earth, yet He never mentioned a word about that either. Also, since Christ never said anything about homosexuality or homosexual marriage wouldn’t it be arrogant and authoritarian for her to tell the Church, or anyone else, what to think about these things? She is hung on the horns of her own dilemma. As for it being “man-made things rooted in backward societies” perhaps you should remind her of history: homosexual practice was widely regarded as morally neutral by “backward societies.” It was the “society” produced by the Church, along with the dignity of women; hospitals; just-war theory; the scientific method; chivalry, etc., that saw in human sexuality an icon that pointed not to coupling for sexuality’s sake, or for the exercise of power over another person for self-gratification but as an image of fidelity that points to the Divine relationship within the Blessed Trinity, and to our own union with God in Christ.

Forgive me if this comes across harshly, and blame it on my inability to articulate rather than any perjorative motive. It sounds as if she suffers from a profound ignorance of the Incarnation and it’s implications in all areas of human life, most especially in the realm of human relationships/sexuality. This may be one avenue to explore with her.

Also, to paraphrase Chesterton, the only purpose for having an open mind in the first place is so it can close again around the truth. Without a working knowledge of the boundaries and parameters of a thing we are destined to keep insisting that 2+2=5 or 12 or 769. This may be preferable to a childish vision of self-esteem or for not causing offense to the ignorant, but is useless for simple arithmetic.

In a world without boundaries we are stuck forever traveling to places we can’t identify and where, consequently, we can never arrive. Only a boundary (such as Dogma) can distinguish a place we really want to go to (like our home) from a place we would be terrified to visit had we only known that monsters and trolls dwelt there and behind them a steaming cauldron, or a black hole.

All my best . . .

 

[Don_L]

Micawber, the Church presents us with the Truth. If by “the Church tells Catholics what to think” your mother means “the Church tells Catholics we cannot invent ‘truth’ for ourselves,” then she is absolutely right.

Who wants to live in a world where everyone is inventing the truth for themselves, anyway?

Who wants to live in such a world where everyone invents their own truth?
That is precisly the cause of original sin -I’ll decide for myself" only means that we replace truth (God) with something else - untruth (ourselves)

In my lifetime of 7 decades plus, I have never know the world to so embrace untruth and anti-truth, seeking all its answers to life, in either; the self, false churches that soothe and please the emotions but never bring peace to the soul, the natural world (eco/animal/worship) or they become what Christ says doesn’t exist -neutral (agnostic) - “You’re either with Me or against Me” - and then there’s the final - atheist (against truth and Christ)
It is precisely against this relative truth that the pope is doing battle. Listen to so-called Catholic politicians and their clones in the clergy and you’ll see a lack of acceptance of Dogma and truth. They, like the sinning Adam, proudly will decide for themselves (to the detriment of their souls). Nothing about man and truth has changed, really, since Adam -just in the amount of lost souls who have already been told the truth and rejected it. Many who teject Christ this way hide within the arches of the Church, puffed with the arrogance and certainty of untruth.

 

[caoimhin]

Well, see, in her mind “they” will tell her what to think about, say, abortion, homosexual marriage, etc. There is some truth to this.

I say to her that “they” are only trying to tell you the truth about these things, which has been carefully hidden from you.

This to her is still authoritarian. I guess she sees all “teaching” as authoritarian? Poor mother!

Funny, I’ve never heard of any objective evidence that the Church’s stand on these issues is wrong. The rightness of gay marriage or abortion is not fact but just how some people feel it should be. Should the feelings of the most self-assured or pushy be determinitive in settling contentious social issues? That sounds to me like people on the other side not telling us what to think as much as telling us to shut up. In fact it’s been people on the secular left who increasingly shun respectful dialogue in favor of a might makes right approach. You see it in campus speech codes, censorship, hate crime legislation, political violence and intimidation, demonization of opponents, and the complicity of the press. Do a Web search on “church arson” or “church vandalized” and see what I mean. It’s a real trend that is being studiously ignored on the national level because it goes against the meme that it’s the Christians who are intolerant.

 

[Worthy5]

Having been involved with Protestant Evangelicalism my whole adult life (i.e. some 20 years), it is my opinion that the same theological minimalism --insisting only on a handful of non-negotiable or foundational doctrines while allowing freedom in the rest-- is actually leading the Evangelical world toward the same relativism that has infected liberal Protestantism and rendered it irrelevant.

“The Church tells you what to think”? I would say that the Church tells you how it is. We can respond to that by not even bothering to understand why the Church teaches what it does because it differs from our own opinions or tastes, or we can do some digging and find good reasons why the Church says what it does. Scripture tells us,

These Jews were more receptive than those in Thessalonica, for they welcomed the message very eagerly and examined the scriptures every day to see whether these things were so. Acts 17:11 (NRSV)

But test everything; hold fast to what is good;1 Thessalonians 5:21 (NRSV)

As a Protestant I applied these in a somewhat mistaken manner and unconsciously adopted the attitude that I didn’t have to believe something until it made sense to me. A Catholic friend pointed out to me that this forced me and every other person to “reinvent the wheel” of Christian doctrine each generation in contrast to God’s entrusting the faith “once for all to the saints” (Jude 3). Now I can look back over the past *-isms *of the secular world and the doctrines and emphases of the “Bible only” churches and see how fast they arise and then get discarded, and by contrast see how the Church’s teaching remains constant and yet astonishingly relevant to new situations and ideas. The former shows the finite nature of conventional human wisdom in the way it reacts to things and its deficiencies are revealed with advancing human knowledge. I think it was astronomer Robert Jastrow who remarked that when the band of scientists finally after much effort scales the pinnacle of human knowledge they will encounter a group of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.

So for me there came a point when I recognized how limited and provisional was the knowledge that I could discover and embrace on my own, in contrast to all that would remain unknown to me yet true and real. The reality is that we all take some things that are told to us by others on faith, whether it’s the roundness of the Earth or the efficacy of a medication or global warming or a million other things. So I have decided to trust the only entity in the world with a 2000 year track record of being proved right in its description and explanation of reality: the Catholic Church. (Of course I am referring to its received dogmas, non its non-dogmatic judgments, such as those made in Galileo’s time.)

By way of contrast, I recall reading some time ago someone commenting on Islam and how it has no tradition of apologetics, because its argument historically has been the edge of a sword. The Church has a 2000 year tradition of appealing to one’s mind (and heart and will) and it still does. Its teaching authority is not oppressive but simply the refusal to commit the intellectual suicide that is relativism.

Well said, as Chesterton said, " “The Catholic Church is the only thing which saves a man from the degrading slavery of being a child of his age.”