They're replacing "thee, thy, thou" with you and your

[ProVobis]

Of course, one of the great reasons for preservation of Latin is that it is dead, meanings are fixed and you don’t run into the problems that a living language imparts. The other side of that is, of course, that a dead language is just that - dead, no one speaks it as a mother tongue so only scholars tend to know it well and therefore translations are needed. You get an accessibility problem.

You’re right. Side-by-side Latin-vernacular handmissals and handouts have worked very well. And it’s cost effective and would lessen the need to segregate cultures into different parishes and Mass times. The only problem seems to get people to use these handmissals.

And you’re spot on about the scholarship. And because only scholars study the Latin, it’s much less vulnerable to be vulgarized and contracted and butchered. The Church (Christianity in fact) has really done a masterful job in preserving Latin for almost 2000 years.

 

[PacoG]

In the South, we prefer “Y’all” for the second person plural.

It seems that there is a need for Anglophones to create a second person plural since Modern English lacks one…y’all, youse, youse guys, you guys, etc.

 

[ProVobis]

It seems that there is a need for Anglophones to create a second person plural since Modern English lacks one…y’all, youse, youse guys, you guys, etc.

Be careful for what you ask.

 

[Phemie]

One of the priests uses that change when he recites the “Hail Mary” .
Also, the cantor uses it. There wasn’t any announcement. I didn’t say it was wrong, but I find it unsettling and I just might say something if they ever try it in the “Our Father”.:banghead:

In French we’ve been using the informal 2nd person singular in the Our Father during Mass for a few decades now. The usage in the Hail Mary seems to depend more on who is reciting it.

 

[Bob_Aliano]

You’re right. Side-by-side Latin-vernacular handmissals and handouts have worked very well. And it’s cost effective and would lessen the need to segregate cultures into different parishes and Mass times. The only problem seems to get people to use these handmissals.

And you’re spot on about the scholarship. And because only scholars study the Latin, it’s much less vulnerable to be vulgarized and contracted and butchered. The Church (Christianity in fact) has really done a masterful job in preserving Latin for almost 2000 years.

However, there is always a however, the translation is different in the various missals. I use a 1962 Missal by Baronius Press which is a British company and there are significant differences when compared to a St. Joseph Missal printed in the US. I was surprised for example to find the word “consubstantial” in my translation, it didn’t occur in the US vernacular until the latest revision of the Roman Missal. There is also heavy reliance on the old Thee/Thou language not present in many other translations as well as scripture language taken from the D-R Bible rather than the NAB Bible.

The point is that the only stable piece of the argument is the Latin itself, everything else is variable.

 

[Pitcharan]

Do not say, “Why were the old days better than these?”
For it is not wise to ask such questions. (Ecclesiastes 7:10)

 

[ProVobis]

However, there is always a however, the translation is different in the various missals. I use a 1962 Missal by Baronius Press which is a British company and there are significant differences when compared to a St. Joseph Missal printed in the US. I was surprised for example to find the word “consubstantial” in my translation, it didn’t occur in the US vernacular until the latest revision of the Roman Missal. There is also heavy reliance on the old Thee/Thou language not present in many other translations as well as scripture language taken from the D-R Bible rather than the NAB Bible.

The point is that the only stable piece of the argument is the Latin itself, everything else is variable.

Good points. I’ve been trying to convince people that there are differences in the translations in the handmissals myself. You can even write in translations of your own, including this interlinear. But the important point is that this would probably not have to go through committee and Vatican approvals, just an imprimatur by a single bishop would probably suffice.

 

[johnnykins]

It seems that there is a need for Anglophones to create a second person plural since Modern English lacks one…y’all, youse, youse guys, you guys, etc.

I believe around parts of western Pennsylvania they use “you’uns”

 

[Mrs_Sally]

I believe around parts of western Pennsylvania they use “you’uns”

I thought it was pronounced more like “yins”. No idea how to spell it correctly.

 

[johnnykins]

Good points. I’ve been trying to convince people that there are differences in the translations in the handmissals myself. You can even write in translations of your own, including this interlinear. But the important point is that this would probably not have to go through committee and Vatican approvals, just an imprimatur by a single bishop would probably suffice.

Exactly. Such translations don’t have any official sanction as “the” translation - other than an imprimatur and a nihil obstat which can be understood in this case as saying they are an allowed translation. (query - do I need to literally translate “imprimatur” and “nihil obstat” or will everyone be OK with my dynamic translation, above?)

 

[johnnykins]

I thought it was pronounced more like “yins”. No idea how to spell it correctly.

In English spelling and pronunciation are only distantly related. I, too, have heard “yins” though I believe that to be a localized pronunciation of what certainly must be spelled “you’uns”

 

[ProVobis]

(query - do I need to literally translate “imprimatur” and “nihil obstat” or will everyone be OK with my dynamic translation, above?)

I would just go with “imprimatur” and “nihil obstat.” If the terms are understood as written, like “et cetera,” “ad hoc” or “habeas corpus,” no need to translate. You only get into trouble by trying to translate, not to mention possible copyright violations.

 

[johnnykins]

I would just go with “imprimatur” and “nihil obstat.” If the terms are understood as written, like “et cetera,” “ad hoc” or “habeas corpus,” no need to translate. You only get into trouble by trying to translate, not to mention possible copyright violations.

That might be Ok with “imprimatur” but I gotta thunk “nihil obstat” doesn’t fit in that box.

 

[isaiah_m]

I believe around parts of western Pennsylvania they use “you’uns”

In Oh and KY you’uns and similar terms are used by “country folk” who have less formal education and less contact with the more affluential society in the larger cities. Many bring these terms with them when they come to the city. You can take “country folk” out of the country, but you can’t take the country out of them in the city. Or, old habits die hard.

Over 20 years ago I changed to the modern you and yours, and even Holy vs Hallowed in the Our Father. I seldom get any odd looks or comments about it. It seemed to make sense to make these prayers more personal and friendly than use the stilted “thee, thou, thy, thine, and hallowed”.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Do not say, “Why were the old days better than these?”
For it is not wise to ask such questions. (Ecclesiastes 7:10)

Perfect! This needs to be a sticky!

 

[Julia_Mae]

I once felt the same about the thee and thou “comfort” I derived from the King James Version of the Bible when I was a fundamentalist protestant many years ago <I’m 60> . ( I converted, through the Mercy of God, to the Catholic Faith 25 years ago). Problem is, back then I could not have explained why I found comfort in it and the sense of “puritan exactness” it rendered. Fortunately (or perhaps unfortunately), I was not asked. At any rate, my humble opinion at this point is that if “comfort” was a virtue or a fruit of the Spirit, then I suppose The Lord Jesus would have commended his disciples for grabbing a nap in the Garden of His Agony. In the Gospels, Our Lord said that His words were “spirit and life”… and I reckon that holds true for the Polish, Portugese, Ukranian languages etc., every bit as much as for those whose native tongue happens to be english: thumbsup: No doubt, we are certainly free to prefer and use Old English in our devotional lives, but I’d wager that the blind man with his braile Bible and Missal finds a discussion like ours just a little peculiar

“We are weak, but HE is strong…”

Nice post. Welcome to CAF.

 

[dochawk]

Isn’t the tradition you speak of here more of the traditions of the Anglican and other denominational Churches? English in the liturgy is a relatively new thing in the Catholic Church. Even the English prayers (Our Father, Hail Mary, Glory Be) appear to be borrowed from the CoE (Henry VIII mandated their current form, I believe) so can we really say these are Church traditions?

When our (Metropolia of Pittsa urge/Ruthenian) liturgy changed, they noted that the translation of the Lord’s Prayer was not updated, even thought a better transplant could be made,for the reason that is shared by all English speaking Christians, as it predates the “reformation.”

As for y’all and “all y’all”, they are regional differences in the plural of “y’all” . . . (and I spent five years in western PA, where “you’ens” was used widely . . .

hawk

 

[ProVobis]

Over 20 years ago I changed to the modern you and yours, and even Holy vs Hallowed in the Our Father. I seldom get any odd looks or comments about it.

Why not use “sanctified” which is a cognate of sanctificetur?

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

I know! I miss the Thee and thou too. I wonder if there are others who do…:harp::grouphug::heaven:
Love and prayers,
Kathryn Ann

 

[centurionguard]

In French we’ve been using the informal 2nd person singular in the Our Father during Mass for a few decades now. The usage in the Hail Mary seems to depend more on who is reciting it.

Interesting; I wasn’t aware there was an informal version of the Our Father in French.

Does it have anything to do with the Acadian French used in the Maritimes or has some inclusive trans-verb variation of French been used? I’d likely be perturbed as you are.

NOTRE PÈRE
Notre Père qui es aux cieux:
que ton nom soit sanctifié;
que ton règne vienne;
que ta volonté soit faite
sur la terre comme au ciel.
Donne-nous aujourd’hui notre pain quotidien;
et pardonne-nous nos offenses,
comme nous pardonnons à ceux qui nous ont offensés;
et ne nous induis point en tentation,
mais délivre-nous du mal.
Amen!

OUR FATHER
Our Father, who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name.
thy kingdom come,
thy will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day, our daily bread,
and forgive us our trespasses
as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.

Amen.