Thief on the cross - is "paradise" the same as "purgatory"?

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Dave Armstrong has a very good explanation of the Biblical basis of the necessity of temporal punishment in his book A Biblical Defence of Catholicism (which is available in pb form, but also in electronic form as a .doc…go to his site ic.net/~erasmus/RAZINDEX.HTM). Many Protestants believe in the concept of temporal punishment…at least in some form or another, but do not believe that anyone has the authority to prescribe ‘penances’ to satisfy such punishment.
 
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sabrinaofmn:
Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be with him in paradise that very day. We know that Jesus didn’t mean heaven because he still had some preaching to do, so did he mean purgatory? If so, the word “paradise” would not connotate the suffering that I often hear associated with the purgatory cleansing process. Who can resolve this for me? Is “paradise” the same as “purgatory”?
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Where is the “Tree of Life”?

Revelation 2:7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God. (NIV)

As we can see from the text of Revelation 2:7 that the Tree of Life is in Paradise, or in other words - “Heaven”!

Revelation 2:7

(ALT) ‘The one having an ear, let him hear [or, pay attention to, and throughout book] what the Spirit says to the assemblies. To one overcoming, I will give to him to eat from the tree of life which is in [the] middle of the Paradise of My God.’

(ASV) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches. To him that overcometh, to him will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God.

(BBE) He who has ears, let him give ear to what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give of the fruit of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God.

(Darby) He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. To him that overcomes, I will give to him to eat of the tree of life which is in the paradise of God.

(DRB) He that hath an ear let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches: To him that overcometh I will give to eat of the tree of life which is in the paradise of my God.

(ESV) He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’

(GW) "Let the person who has ears listen to what the Spirit says to the churches. I will give the privilege of eating from the tree of life, which stands in the paradise of God, to everyone who wins the victory.

(HNV) He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. To him who overcomes I will give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of my God.

(ISV) ‘Let the person who has an ear listen to what the Spirit says to the churches. To everyone who conquers I will give the privilege of eating from the tree of life that is in the paradise of God.’"

(KJV) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

(LITV) The one who has an ear, hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. To the one overcoming, I will give to him to eat of the Tree of Life which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.

(MKJV) He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat of the Tree of Life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

(MRC) "'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God.

(WEB) He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. To him who overcomes I will give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of my God.

(Webster) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

(YLT) He who is having an ear–let him hear what the Spirit saith to the assemblies: To him who is overcoming–I will give to him to eat of the tree of life that is in the midst of the paradise of God.
 
Hey Ric,

The word “paradise” is used interchangeably throughout Scripture. In this particular instance, paradise cannot mean heaven considering that Jesus promises the thief “today” he would be in paradise (Luke 23:43), but after His resurrection Jesus tells Mary Magdelene that He hadn’t yet ascended to the Father (John 20:17). If He had indeed gone to heaven after His death He wouldn’t have said this. Therefore, He must have been in another “paradise” namely the Abraham’s bosom side of Sheol where the OT saints reside. Now, like you, I do not believe in a purgatory and neither side of Sheol, the Bosom or the hell of the damned, is purgatorial according to the account in Luke 16.

BTW, how are things on CARM 😉 .

Peace,
CM
 
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Churchmouse:
Hey Ric,

The word “paradise” is used interchangeably throughout Scripture. In this particular instance, paradise cannot mean heaven considering that Jesus promises the thief “today” he would be in paradise (Luke 23:43), but after His resurrection Jesus tells Mary Magdelene that He hadn’t yet ascended to the Father (John 20:17). If He had indeed gone to heaven after His death He wouldn’t have said this. Therefore, He must have been in another “paradise” namely the Abraham’s bosom side of Sheol where the OT saints reside. Now, like you, I do not believe in a purgatory and neither side of Sheol, the Bosom or the hell of the damned, is purgatorial according to the account in Luke 16.

BTW, how are things on CARM 😉 .

Peace,
CM
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Hey CM,

Yes I am aware of how the word “paradise” is used interchangeably throughout the Scriptures, but the same meaning for “paradise” is used both in Luke 23:43 as in Revelation 2:7. In John 20:17 Jesus is talking about not ascending into Heaven “bodily”. Remember in Luke 23:46 Jesus committed His spirit into God the Father’s hands (more reason to read from the context of the Scripture that paradise is indeed Heaven).

Things are going well at CARM right now, I was given a moderator position. But sad to say right now I am kind of bored at CARM (this will pass) because of the same ole’ same ole’.
 
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sabrinaofmn:
Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be with him in paradise that very day. We know that Jesus didn’t mean heaven because he still had some preaching to do, so did he mean purgatory? If so, the word “paradise” would not connotate the suffering that I often hear associated with the purgatory cleansing process. Who can resolve this for me? Is “paradise” the same as “purgatory”?
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Jesus said, " This day, thou shalt be with ME in Paradise" He didn’t say I shall be with you in Purgatory or any where else. The thief went to Heaven with Jesus. As Jesus is GOD, HE can be anywhere and everywhere at the same time.
 
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twf:
Dave Armstrong has a very good explanation of the Biblical basis of the necessity of temporal punishment in his book A Biblical Defence of Catholicism (which is available in pb form, but also in electronic form as a .doc…go to his site ic.net/~erasmus/RAZINDEX.HTM). Many Protestants believe in the concept of temporal punishment…at least in some form or another, but do not believe that anyone has the authority to prescribe ‘penances’ to satisfy such punishment.
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Most non-Catholics do not believe in Purgatory or the Communion of Saints and yet it has always seemed unusual to me that in the obituaries, there are many who pay to put a little note to their deceased loved ones telling them they love and miss them as tho the deceased could read it. I believe God has put that desire in ALL our hearts. Now us Catholics can tell our loved ones that “every day” without costing us a penny. And we can go much further and attend Mass for our loved ones every day. I love and appreciate my Faith more all the time.
 
Wouldn’t the thief on the cross be considered one of the first martars in a sense. He believed in Jesus and asked to be remembered when he entered into his kingdom. If he was a martar then there would be no need for purgatory. What do you think?
 
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Ric:
Yes I am aware of how the word “paradise” is used interchangeably throughout the Scriptures, but the same meaning for “paradise” is used both in Luke 23:43 as in Revelation 2:7. In John 20:17 Jesus is talking about not ascending into Heaven “bodily”. Remember in Luke 23:46 Jesus committed His spirit into God the Father’s hands (more reason to read from the context of the Scripture that paradise is indeed Heaven).
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Ric, what are you trying to say? Do you believe that the OT saints went directly into God’s presence upon their deaths? If that is what you’re saying then it can be said that Christ wasn’t the only way to the Father and we don’t want to say that. When you compare verses such as John 20:17, where He tells Mary Magdalene not to touch him because He hadn’t yet ascended into heaven, to John 20:27 where Thomas touches Him, what happened in between these two situations? Christ didn’t tell Mary Magdelene that He hadn’t ascended “bodily” but that He hadn’t yet ascended. According to Matthew 27:53, the dead came forth from their tombs “…after His resurrection…” not before, which correlates with the accounts in John 20. The thief went to paradise with Christ (…today shalt thou be with me…), but considering that Christ hadn’t yet ascended (again, according to the accounts, this happens later after the resurrection), the thief couldn’t have gone to heaven and since Christ said “…with me…” this would mean they went to the same place, but not heaven because he “hadn’t yet ascended.”

An isolated statement made by Christ (Into thy hands I commend my spirit) doesn’t necessarily mean that He entered the Father’s presence that particular day in light of what I’ve submitted.
Things are going well at CARM right now, I was given a moderator position. But sad to say right now I am kind of bored at CARM (this will pass) because of the same ole’ same ole’.
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Can’t say I blame you. The forum there seems to go in circles. I don’t know if you remember me, but I use to post as Servant when I was there.

Peace,
CM
 
Tyler Smedley:
Wouldn’t the thief on the cross be considered one of the first martars in a sense. He believed in Jesus and asked to be remembered when he entered into his kingdom. If he was a martar then there would be no need for purgatory. What do you think?
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No, because he wasn’t killed due to his faith, but because he was a thief.

Peace,
CM
 
Kathy Perry:
Most non-Catholics do not believe in Purgatory or the Communion of Saints and yet it has always seemed unusual to me that in the obituaries, there are many who pay to put a little note to their deceased loved ones telling them they love and miss them as tho the deceased could read it. I believe God has put that desire in ALL our hearts. Now us Catholics can tell our loved ones that “every day” without costing us a penny. And we can go much further and attend Mass for our loved ones every day. I love and appreciate my Faith more all the time.
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Greetings!

I kind of equate what some “people” do to the early church and the refrigerium. Inwardly, the prayer is more for the individual then for the deceased.

Peace,
CM
 
Also, be careful about what you assume regarding duration in purgatory. Who says “time in purgatory” is the same as time as we understand it?
 
Here is a breakdown of some Biblical and non-Biblical words associated with the afterlife:

Hades is the Greek term employed in both the New Testament and the Old Testament [Septuagint] in reference to the afterlife, the lower region, or the world of the dead where disembodied spirits descend. It is a general term that does not in and of itself reveal any specifics of the place of the dead. Its context determines its meaning. Hades can be applied to Gehenna, Abraham’s Bosom, Limbo of the Fathers, Purgatory, etc. It does not however, apply to Heaven. The Hebrew equivalent, Sheol, occurs 65 times in the Proto-canonical Old Testament Books (Genesis 37:35; 42:38; 44:29, 31; Numbers 16:30, 33; Deuteronomy 32:22; 1 Samuel 2:6; 2 Samuel 22:6; 1 Kings 2:6, 9; Job 7:9; 11:8; 14:13; 17:13, 16; 21:13; 25:19; 26:6; Psalm 6:5; 9:17; 16:10; 18:5; 30:3; 31:17; 49:14-15; 55:15; 86:13; 88:3; 89:48; 116:3; 139:8; 141:7; Proverbs 1:12; 5:5; 7:27; 9:18; 15:11, 24; 23:14; 27:20; 30:16; Ecclesiastes 9:10; Song of Songs 8:6; Isaiah 5:14; 14:9, 11, 15; 28:15, 18; 38:10, 18; 57:9; Ezekiel 31:15-17; 32:21, 27; Hosea 13:14; Amos 9:2; Jonah 2:2; Habakkuk 2:5 [66 times counting a textual variant occurring in Isaiah 7:11]). Hades occurs in 10 verses of the NT (Matthew 11:23; 16:18; Luke 10:15; 16:23; Acts 2:27, 31; Revelation 1:18; 6:8; 20:13, 14).

Acts 2:27 records that Jesus’ soul was in Hades during the 3 days His body laid in the tomb. Unfortunately some Bible translations have rendered Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus all invariably as “hell” although they have different meanings. This has led to much confusion and has caused some to believe that Christ actually went to the place of the damned. To the contrary, Christ did descend into Hades (Revelation 1:18), the abode of the dead, as the Bible records but the Scriptures in other places are even clearer as to the exact places in Hades that He visited. For example, Luke records that Christ went to Paradise (Luke 23:43) at His death. Matthew records that Jesus went into the ‘heart of the earth’ for 3 days and nights (12:39-40). Additionally, Peter states that Christ went to preach the Gospel to those in Prison when He was put to death in the flesh (1 Peter 3:18-19; 4:5-6). And Paul adds that Christ descended into the Abyss (Romans 10:6-7).

Sorry but it appears that I will need 2 additional posts to fit the rest of the information. . .
 
Abraham’s Bosom (Luke 16:22-23) refers to a specific place of Hades that only existed prior to Christ’s Resurrection. This place in Hades held the souls of the righteous. It is where Father Abraham and the rest of the righteous prophets and people of God went after death if not in need of purification in Purgatory first. At this time, Heaven was not possible for anyone until after the Resurrection (Romans 8:29; Colossians 1:18-20). In this account mentioned in Luke, Jesus contrasts Abraham’s Bosom with Hades but specifies that the rich man was in torment. We can surmise that this man went to either Purgatory or Gehenna. [Some have questioned that the rich man cannot be in Gehenna because he prays to Father Abraham to send Lazarus to save his brothers from the place he went to and to lesson his agony. Those in Gehenna are not concerned with anyone’s salvation including their own.] Prior to His Ascension and speaking of the future, Jesus states that “many shall come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven; but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Matthew 8:11-12, NASB). Here we have explicit testimony from Jesus that Abraham would eventually be in heaven. He also contrasts those who will be with Abraham as opposed to those who will be in punishment (see also Luke 13:27-29 and the words of John the Baptist as well at Matthew 3:9-10). At Christ’s Ascension into Heaven, He took Abraham and the rest of the elect with Him (Ephesians 4:8). In essence, Christ took Abraham’s Bosom with Him to Heaven. He entered first to prepare the way for others to come after Him (John 14:1-4). This place of the righteous no longer exists per se except as Heaven now. It was referred to as Abraham’s Bosom because of Abraham’s prominence among the Jews (John 8:31-59; Luke 1:55; 3:8; 19:9; Acts 7:1-7; Romans 4:1-17; 9:7-8; 2 Corinthians 11:22). He was their physical and spiritual father (Genesis 17; Hebrews 2:16). He had the covenant of promises with God (Galatians 3). Thus for the Jews, where Abraham was, God was; there could be no safer place in the afterlife. ‘Bosom’ is used in Scripture to denote intimate communion, protection, love, the heart, etc. (see Numbers 11:11-12; Isaiah 40:10-11; John 1:18; 13:23-25). The Limbo of the Fathers is a term used to describe the place where the souls of the righteous went prior to the Ascension also. It is from this place that Jeremiah the prophet interceded for Israel before God (2 Maccabees 15:14). For all intents and purposes, Abraham’s Bosom = Limbo of the Fathers. And now after the Ascension of the Savior, Abraham’s Bosom is in Heaven.
 
Paradise as used in Luke (23:43) probably refers also to Abraham’s Bosom. However, as previously stated, the populace of this place was transferred to Heaven upon Christ’s Ascension. This is confirmed by the fact that the Scriptures equate Paradise with Heaven in each of its following occurrences in the NT when relating things that transpired after the Ascension of Jesus (2 Corinthians 12:2-4 and Revelation 2:7).

Prison seems to be representing Purgatory. The NT describes it as a place where one pays for the debts committed against his brother or enemy (Matthew 5:25-26; 18:23-35; Luke 12:54-59). One cannot leave this place until all debts are paid. Debts in these passages refer to sins (Matthew 6:12; Luke 11:4). Paul similarly taught that sin carries wages with it (Romans 11:23). And debt opposes God’s grace (Romans 4:4; Galatians 5:3-6). Christ came to redeem and purchase us from this debt (Galatians 4:4-7; Acts 20:28; 1 Corinthians 6:20; 7:23). Peter teaches that Christ went to preach to those in Prison (1 Peter 3:18-19) that were dead (4:5-6). This could not possibly be the damned since Christ’s words would be ineffectual to them and it can’t be those in Abraham’s Bosom since they were already purified and in no need of preaching. Only those who were in Purgatory would have benefited from the Lord proclaiming the Gospel to them. Only those souls with perfect holiness can enter Heaven (Isaiah 35:8; Matthew 5:8, 48; Romans 6:22; Ephesians 1:4; 1 Thessalonians 4:3-8; Hebrews 12:14; 1 Peter 1:15-16; Revelation 21:27). For other references relating to Purgatory, see Sirach 7:33; 2 Maccabees 12:43, Matthew 12:32, and 1 Corinthians 3:15.

The New Testament Scripture uses Gehenna to denote the place of the damned. It is a place of horrible torment. The Greek word Gehenna is derived from the Hebrew for ‘Valley of Hinnom’ which in Jesus’ time was a dumping site where things were burned up and disposed of [the Greek Septuagint translates ‘Valley of Hinnom’ as Gehenna at Joshua 18:16]. In the NT, Gehenna is used in Matthew 5:22, 29, 30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15, 33, Mark 9:43, 45, 47, Luke 12:5, and James 3:6. The Gehenna of the NT represents a spiritual ruin that is eternal in duration and cannot be conveyed fully in human terms. For those living in Jesus’ time, it would no doubt be a terrifying thought to be cast into the fires of this valley. Pure and unrelenting torment is suggested by such a place. Gehenna is Hell proper.

Tartarus is used in Scripture only once and denotes the place of punishment for the fallen angels (2 Peter 2:4). Peter describes this place as a pit of dense darkness. Jude also appears to be referring to Tartarus in his epistle. However, he doesn’t mention it by name but uses almost the exact same description as Peter (6-7). It is difficult to say for certain if this place is equivalent to Gehenna or if it represents a specific area of Gehenna reserved only for the reprobate angels. Jude may be indicating that human souls also fall into Tartarus (see verse 8). It is Biblical teaching that there are different levels of punishment in hell (Matthew 10:15; 11:22-24; Mark 6:11; Luke 10:11-15; 20:47).

Pit is used throughout Scripture to denote Hades [or Sheol] (Psalm 28:1; 143:1-7; Ezekiel 26:20; 31:14; 32:18, 23-25, 29; Zechariah 9:11) or a specific compartment thereof (Revelation 9:1-2, 11; 11:7; 17:8; 20:1-3). The Bible at times equates the Netherworld directly with the Pit (Psalm 30:3; 88:3-6; Proverbs 1:12; Isaiah 14:15; 38:18; Ezekiel 31:16).

Abyss and the expression ‘heart of the earth’ (Matthew 12:39-40) also seem to be synonymous with Hades [the abode of the underworld] in the NT. Paul mentions that Jesus visited the Abyss (Romans 10:6-7). The Gospel of Luke records that the demons begged Jesus not to send them to this place (Luke 8:31; see also Revelation 9:1, 11; 11:7; 17:8; 20:1-3).

At the Second Coming, Hades will release its dead (Revelation 20:13). Those judged worthy at the General Judgment will reign with Christ. The sections of Hades containing the damned [Gehenna and Tartarus] will be thrust into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone (Revelation 20:26-27).
 
From my understanding the Jewish belief was that hell, hades, etc was the location of those who had died and were waiting for the Messiah to come. Gehanna was the lake of fire for those who were damned and no salvation was possible. So when we say the Jesus decended into hell it is not our view of Hell, the Kingdom of Satan, but what we now refer to Purgatory.
 
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sabrinaofmn:
Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be with him in paradise that very day. We know that Jesus didn’t mean heaven because he still had some preaching to do, so did he mean purgatory? If so, the word “paradise” would not connotate the suffering that I often hear associated with the purgatory cleansing process. Who can resolve this for me? Is “paradise” the same as “purgatory”?
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Paradise is Paradise, where we all want to go.That is where the tree of life is and it will come down from heaven as the Holy Jerusalem
Hell . Hell is where you go if you dont make paradise. When you are alive you are both in the kingdom of God ( here on earth) and in the kingdom of heaven ( as the inner man) note Jesus only did what His Father did and in the same way. Who was God healing . The duplicate in heaven. As God put mud and spittle on the eyes so did Jesus. See the tabernacle. earth is a copy of a portion of heaven. Probably the first heaven, where paradise is the third heaven.
Many many parables of the kingdom of heaven show a sorting.( cast out where gnashing of teeth etc) I can’t find a sorting from the kingdom of God. When you die you leave the kingdom of God and you leave the kingdom of heaven. You either go to paradise or hell. Only Christians and hypocrites are in the kingdom of heaven.
At the end. all are caught up in heaven, the good and the bad, not those of the first resurrection who came out of Tribulation, and sorted, some to the Lake of Fire and the rest into the kingdom of God which comes down to earth. No purgatory,
Paradise is the opposite of hell. The kingdom of God ( living on earth while still alive to earth is a copy of the kingdom of heaven, ( probably 1st heaven) See the Lord’s prayer, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Ie copy, this is what we pray for. Then we become one in Christ.
John established the kingdom of heaven. It was these people who believed John that inhabited the kingdom of heaven and became eligible for Christ’s healing.
Christ first went to paradise ( spirits) then to hell( spirits) ( in prison ( the term means you are coming out either to the Kingdom of God or the Lake of Fire. to preach and then Mary saw him and then He went to the Kingdom of Heaven which is inhabited by bodies, ( God excluded as a body) then came back to witness.
Christ be with youhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
walk in love
edwinG
 
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sabrinaofmn:
Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be with him in paradise that very day. We know that Jesus didn’t mean heaven because he still had some preaching to do, so did he mean purgatory? If so, the word “paradise” would not connotate the suffering that I often hear associated with the purgatory cleansing process. Who can resolve this for me? Is “paradise” the same as “purgatory”?
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I thought he died with perfect contrition and his painful death may have purged him of the effects of sin viz paradise could mean Heaven.
 
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wet-rat:
Also, be careful about what you assume regarding duration in purgatory. Who says “time in purgatory” is the same as time as we understand it?
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Amen.
 
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