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Mystophilus
Guest
Found another one: “There comes an old man and his three sons”, Shakespeare, As You Like It 1.2.112ish (my collected edition does not have exact line numbers)
- Status
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ob_patrick
Guest
OED or LL? Guess I prefer LL and Etymology to what protestants define as acceptable definitions of “Doxology” Have you looked them up? I ask because we don’t call them an embolism. We call them (sing song) “Doxology” Everyone get a dictionary.
BTW, Does Mysto-philus mean “Lover/Attracted-to Mysto (the DC Comic Hero)” or “Lover/Atrracted-to Mysto Islands, Dominican Republic”?
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ob_patrick
Guest
BTW, Does Mysto-philus mean “Lover/Attracted-to Mysto (the DC Comic Hero)” or “Lover/Atrracted-to Mysto Islands, Dominican Republic”?
PS - I have a St Pio medal on my rosary so you know I get it…
PS - I have a St Pio medal on my rosary so you know I get it…
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Church_Militant
Guest
Correct! It is only found in The Didache and was included in the KJV NT by way of a copyist error, since it is not in the original text of Matthew 6:13. It is an authentic Catholic doxology from the early church, but not part of the Lord’s Prayer, scripturally or historically.
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ob_patrick
Guest
Sir, may I get your source please? I’m referencing historical books on Henry the VIII, but between us I’m pretty sure we’ve got this answer locked for me. May we trade references for the endnotes of a paper I’m writing? Don’t worry, I’m authentic Catholic per John’s Epistle: “Jesus Christ came in the Flesh, and died for our sins on the Cross.”
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ob_patrick
Guest
Another Great Doxology that I love:
“Thru Him and with Him and in Him, in the Unity of the Holy Spirit, all Glory and Honor is Yours, Almighty Father, forever and ever.” We say: “AMEN!”
Loved the way Monsignior Gallagher used to croon that in Brogue. God rest you Monsignior!
“Thru Him and with Him and in Him, in the Unity of the Holy Spirit, all Glory and Honor is Yours, Almighty Father, forever and ever.” We say: “AMEN!”
Loved the way Monsignior Gallagher used to croon that in Brogue. God rest you Monsignior!
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patrick457
Guest
A little trivia. Back in the old days before the custom of elevating the Host and the Chalice during the Words of Institution were introduced (the Middle Ages), this was the instance when the celebrant would elevate both species. (The priest still does so today as you may know.) This was also the instance when the silence from the beginning of the Canon (what we call today the ‘Eucharistic Prayer’) would be formally broken.
Grant also to us sinners, your servants, hoping in your abundant mercies, some part and fellowship with your holy apostles and martyrs: with John the Baptist, Stephen, Matthias, Barnabas, Ignatius, Alexander, Marcellinus, Peter, Felicitas, Perpetua, Agatha, Lucy, Agnes, Cecilia, Anastasia and all your saints; amongst whose company admit us, we beseech you, not as the weigher of our merit, but the bestower of forgiveness, through Christ our Lord, through whom, O Lord, you create, sanctify, fill with life, bless and bestow all these good things upon us. Through him, and with him and in him, is to you - God the Father almighty, in the unity of the Holy Spirit - all honor and glory, (aloud) forever and ever, Amen.
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patrick457
Guest
‘Embolism’ means ‘insertion’, coming from a Greek verb meaning ‘to throw in’ (so yeah, it does have something to do with plugsOED or LL? Guess I prefer LL and Etymology to what protestants define as acceptable definitions of “Doxology” Have you looked them up? I ask because we don’t call them an embolism. We call them (sing song) “Doxology” Everyone get a dictionary.
BTW, Does Mysto-philus mean “Lover/Attracted-to Mysto (the DC Comic Hero)” or “Lover/Atrracted-to Mysto Islands, Dominican Republic”?
). In liturgical jargon it denotes, as Mystophilus said, that prayer ‘inserted’ between the Our Father and the Fraction (the breaking of the Host; no, nothing to do with math ) which expands upon and interprets the final petition of the Our Father: “deliver us from evil.” All liturgies, East and West, have the Embolism. The Doxology, however, was originally an Eastern thing before it was adopted for use in the Roman Rite in our current form of Mass (Western liturgies, including the Roman, did not originally have it). This is how it goes in the (Byzantine) Divine Liturgy:Priest, in a low voice: We entrust to you, loving Master, our whole life and hope, and we ask, pray, and entreat: make us worthy to partake of your heavenly and awesome Mysteries from this holy and spiritual Table with a clear conscience; for the remission of sins, forgiveness of transgressions, communion of the Holy Spirit, inheritance of the kingdom of heaven, confidence before you, and not in judgment or condemnation, (aloud) and make us worthy, Master, with confidence and without fear of condemnation, to dare call you, the heavenly God, ‘Father,’ and to say:
People: Our Father, who art in heaven…
Priest: For yours is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, now and ever and to the ages of the ages.
People: Amen.
- Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom
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patrick457
Guest
Personally, I think that it may have to do first of all with the fact that this doxology runs in Greek thus: Oti sou estin he basileia, kai he dynameis, kai he doxa. Estin is the third person singular present indicative form of eimi ‘to be’. Using ‘is’ is thus a literal rendering of the Greek. Now, I’m calling all the folks who know Greek here because I sure don’t.
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Mystophilus
Guest
OED or LL? Guess I prefer LL and Etymology to what protestants define as acceptable definitions of “Doxology” Have you looked them up? I ask because we don’t call them an embolism. We call them (sing song) “Doxology” Everyone get a dictionary.
BTW, Does Mysto-philus mean “Lover/Attracted-to Mysto (the DC Comic Hero)” or “Lover/Atrracted-to Mysto Islands, Dominican Republic”?
What’s LL?The OED is the standard reference in my field: it notes that the usage is particularly Catholic and Orthodox, and it is there in your catechism (footnote 6).
It is tempting to go with the magician-detective one, but it is just something of which I thought when casting around for a username: the Anglicisation of the Latinisation of the Greek for ‘lover of secrets’.
Your username, BTW, is quite funny in Latin when you are having a discussion with patrick457.
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Mystophilus
Guest
100% correct.
As I mentioned to the OP, the construction is just fine in Greek, and it presumably came into English thence.
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triumphguy
Guest
The “embolism” comes between the Our Father and the doxology during the mass.
Embolism is the correct Catholic word.
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ob_patrick
Guest
It is time for you to ask a priest. I’ll type it for you:
Is “embolism” synonymous with “Doxology” in the Catholic Mass? Can I lean over and tell my cathecuman “That’s a plug… ya know, filler so to speak.”
I’ll type more when we at least can agree on Catholic definitions.
Shot over.
PS - you really have to take off the T-Shirts that say: “I am a reference.” and on the back “Read it on the Internet!!!”
Is “embolism” synonymous with “Doxology” in the Catholic Mass? Can I lean over and tell my cathecuman “That’s a plug… ya know, filler so to speak.”
I’ll type more when we at least can agree on Catholic definitions.
Shot over.
PS - you really have to take off the T-Shirts that say: “I am a reference.” and on the back “Read it on the Internet!!!”
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patrick457
Guest
Ὅτι σοῦ ἐστιν ἡ βασιλεία καὶ ἡ δύναμις καὶ ἡ δόξα.100% correct.
As I mentioned to the OP, the construction is just fine in Greek, and it presumably came into English thence.
A slight correction from my earlier post. I said earlier that “all liturgies, East and West, have the Embolism,” but in reality, the Divine Liturgies of St. Basil and St. John Chrysostom (quoted earlier) do not contain it. The Divine Liturgy of St. James, however, does: the doxology there forms the final part of the Embolism.
Priest, in a low voice: *O God and Father of our Lord and God and Savior Jesus Christ, the Lord whose name is exalted, the blessed nature, the unstinted goodness, the God and Master of all, the One who Exists, blessed to the ages of ages, who sits upon the cherubim, and are glorified by the Seraphim, before whom stand thousand thousands and ten thousand times ten thousand armies of angels and archangels, accept as sweet fragrance the gifts, offerings and fruits here presented to you, by the grace of your Christ and the visitation of your all-holy Spirit.
Sanctify also, Master, our souls and bodies and spirits and touch our minds and search out our consciences, and cast out from us every evil thought, every impure idea, every base desire and memory, every unseemly word, all envy, pride and hypocrisy, every lie, every deceit, every worldly temptation, all greed, all vainglory, all wickedness, all wrath, all anger, all malice, all blasphemy, and all sloth, every motion of flesh and spirit that is alien to the will of your holiness,* (aloud) and make us worthy, Master, Lord who loves mankind, with confidence and without condemnation, with a pure heart, enlightened soul, face unashamed, lips that are sanctified, to dare to call upon you, the holy heavenly God, ‘Father,’ and to say:
People: Our Father, who art in heaven…
Priest, in a low voice: “And do not lead us into temptation” that we cannot endure, Lord, Lord of powers, who know our weakness, but “deliver us from the evil one” and from his works, and from all his influence and guile, for the sake of your holy name, that has been invoked upon our lowliness, (aloud) for yours is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, now and ever and to the ages of the ages.
People: Amen.
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patrick457
Guest
Let’s quote all the other liturgies which contain the doxology, shall we?
Priest, in a low voice: *Our God, the God who saves, you teach us justly to thank you for the good things which you have done and still do for us. You are our God who has accepted these Gifts. Cleanse us from every defilement of flesh and spirit, and teach us how to live in holiness by your fear, so that receiving the portion of your holy Gifts with a clear conscience we may be united with the holy Body and Blood of your Christ. Having received them worthily, may we have Christ dwelling in our hearts, and may we become the temple of your Holy Spirit.
Yes, our God, let none of us be guilty before these, your awesome and heavenly Mysteries, nor be infirm in body and soul by partaking of them unworthily. But enable us, even up to our last breath, to receive a portion of your holy Gifts worthily, as provision for eternal life and as an acceptable defense at the awesome judgment seat of your Christ. So that we also, together with all the saints who through the ages have pleased you, may become partakers of your eternal good things, which you, Lord, have prepared for those who love you,* (aloud) and make us worthy, Master, with confidence and without fear of condemnation, to dare call you, the heavenly God, ‘Father,’ and to say:
People: Our Father, who art in heaven…
Priest: For yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory, of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, now and for ever and to the ages of ages.
People: Amen.
Priest, in a low voice: *Our God, the God who saves, you teach us justly to thank you for the good things which you have done and still do for us. You are our God who has accepted these Gifts. Cleanse us from every defilement of flesh and spirit, and teach us how to live in holiness by your fear, so that receiving the portion of your holy Gifts with a clear conscience we may be united with the holy Body and Blood of your Christ. Having received them worthily, may we have Christ dwelling in our hearts, and may we become the temple of your Holy Spirit.
Yes, our God, let none of us be guilty before these, your awesome and heavenly Mysteries, nor be infirm in body and soul by partaking of them unworthily. But enable us, even up to our last breath, to receive a portion of your holy Gifts worthily, as provision for eternal life and as an acceptable defense at the awesome judgment seat of your Christ. So that we also, together with all the saints who through the ages have pleased you, may become partakers of your eternal good things, which you, Lord, have prepared for those who love you,* (aloud) and make us worthy, Master, with confidence and without fear of condemnation, to dare call you, the heavenly God, ‘Father,’ and to say:
People: Our Father, who art in heaven…
Priest: For yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory, of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, now and for ever and to the ages of ages.
People: Amen.
- Divine Liturgy of Saint Basil
Priest, in a low voice: God of truth and Father of mercy, we thank you, who have exalted our nature, condemned as we were, above that of the blessed patriarchs; for you were called God to them, whereas in compassion you have been pleased to be named Father to us. And now, O Lord, we beseech you, make the grace of so new and precious a naming of yourself shine forth and flourish day by day in your holy Church, (aloud) and grant us to open our mouths with cry of bold voice, to call upon you, O heavenly Father, to sing and say:
Choir: Our Father, who art in heaven…
Priest, in a low voice: Lord of lords, God of gods, King eternal, Creator of all creatures, Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, give us not over for trial, but deliver us from evil and save us from temptation, (aloud) for yours is the kingdom and the power and glory to the ages, Amen.
O God, who has sanctified these gifts which are set fourth, through the coming down upon them of your Holy Spirit, you have purified them. Purify us also, our Master, from our sins, the hidden and manifest; and every thought which is not pleasing to your goodness, God who loves mankind, may it be far from us. Purify our souls, our bodies, our spirits, our hearts, our eyes, our understanding, our thoughts and our consciences, so that with a pure heart, and enlightened soul, and unashamed face, a faith unfeigned, a perfect love, and firm hope, we may dare with boldness without fear to pray to you, O God the holy Father who are in the heavens and say: Our Father…
People: Our Father who art in heaven…but deliver us from evil.
In Christ Jesus our Lord.
For yours is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory forever. Amen.
Priest, in a low voice: Yes, we ask you, O good Father, who loves goodness, lead us not into temptation, nor let any iniquity get the rule over us but deliver us from worthless works and form the thoughts, motions, sights and touch thereof. Destroy the tempter and drive him away. Rebuke also his movements implanted in us, and cut off from us all impulses which drag us into sin. And deliver us by your holy power, in Christ Jesus, our Lord, through whom the glory, the honour, the dominion, and adoration are due unto you, with Him and the Holy Spirit the Lifegiver, who is of one essence with you now, and at all times, and to the age of all ages. Amen.
People: Our Father, who art in heaven…For yours is the kingdom…
Priest: O gracious Lord, lead us into trials and temptations, for we do not have the strength to bear them; rather, in your infinite mercy, deliver us from affliction and anger. To you belong the power and the kingdom, and we will glorify and thank you, O Father, your only Son, and your Holy Spirit, now and for ever, Amen.
Priest, in a low voice: God of truth and Father of mercy, we thank you, who have exalted our nature, condemned as we were, above that of the blessed patriarchs; for you were called God to them, whereas in compassion you have been pleased to be named Father to us. And now, O Lord, we beseech you, make the grace of so new and precious a naming of yourself shine forth and flourish day by day in your holy Church, (aloud) and grant us to open our mouths with cry of bold voice, to call upon you, O heavenly Father, to sing and say:
Choir: Our Father, who art in heaven…
Priest, in a low voice: Lord of lords, God of gods, King eternal, Creator of all creatures, Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, give us not over for trial, but deliver us from evil and save us from temptation, (aloud) for yours is the kingdom and the power and glory to the ages, Amen.
- Armenian Badarak
O God, who has sanctified these gifts which are set fourth, through the coming down upon them of your Holy Spirit, you have purified them. Purify us also, our Master, from our sins, the hidden and manifest; and every thought which is not pleasing to your goodness, God who loves mankind, may it be far from us. Purify our souls, our bodies, our spirits, our hearts, our eyes, our understanding, our thoughts and our consciences, so that with a pure heart, and enlightened soul, and unashamed face, a faith unfeigned, a perfect love, and firm hope, we may dare with boldness without fear to pray to you, O God the holy Father who are in the heavens and say: Our Father…
People: Our Father who art in heaven…but deliver us from evil.
In Christ Jesus our Lord.
For yours is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory forever. Amen.
Priest, in a low voice: Yes, we ask you, O good Father, who loves goodness, lead us not into temptation, nor let any iniquity get the rule over us but deliver us from worthless works and form the thoughts, motions, sights and touch thereof. Destroy the tempter and drive him away. Rebuke also his movements implanted in us, and cut off from us all impulses which drag us into sin. And deliver us by your holy power, in Christ Jesus, our Lord, through whom the glory, the honour, the dominion, and adoration are due unto you, with Him and the Holy Spirit the Lifegiver, who is of one essence with you now, and at all times, and to the age of all ages. Amen.
- Coptic Liturgy of St. Basil
People: Our Father, who art in heaven…For yours is the kingdom…
Priest: O gracious Lord, lead us into trials and temptations, for we do not have the strength to bear them; rather, in your infinite mercy, deliver us from affliction and anger. To you belong the power and the kingdom, and we will glorify and thank you, O Father, your only Son, and your Holy Spirit, now and for ever, Amen.
- Maronite Anaphora of St. Peter
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patrick457
Guest
Priest: O Compassionate and merciful Lord, praised, and honored above all, grant us to say with purity and holiness:
People: Our Father, who art in heaven…For yours is the kingdom…
Priest: Forsake us not, O Lord, Lover of All, lest trials overwhelm us, but deliver us from the evil one and his misleading ways, for the kingdom belongs to you, to your only Son, and to your living and Holy Spirit, now and for ever, Amen.
People: Our Father, who art in heaven…For yours is the kingdom…
Priest: Forsake us not, O Lord, Lover of All, lest trials overwhelm us, but deliver us from the evil one and his misleading ways, for the kingdom belongs to you, to your only Son, and to your living and Holy Spirit, now and for ever, Amen.
- Maronite Anaphora of the Twelve Apostles
Priest, in a low voice: Pardon in your compassion, O my Lord, the sins and offenses of your servants, and hallow our lips in your loving-kindness, that they may yield the fruits of glory to your exalted Godhead with all your saints in your kingdom, (aloud) and make us worthy, our Lord, and our God, to stand before you continually without spot, with a pure heart and with confidence; and with the liberty which is from you, through the mercies given to us, that we may all equally cry out and say in this manner:
People: Our Father, who art in heaven…For yours is the kingdom…
Priest: O Lord God of hosts, our good God and our merciful Father, we beseech you and supplicate the abundance of your mercy, “do not,” my Lord, “bring us to the test, but deliver us from the Evil One” and his hosts, for yours is the kingdom, power, might, strength, and dominion, in heaven and on earth, now, and ever, and to the ages of ages, Amen.
Choir: Our Father, who art in heaven…
Priest (secretly): Yes, Lord, “lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil,” for your great mercy knows that we through our great infirmity are unable to resist; but make with the temptation also a way of escape, that we might be able to withstand, for you have given us power to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and on all the might of the enemy, (aloud) for yours is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, now and ever and to the ages of ages, Amen.
Priest, in a low voice: Pardon in your compassion, O my Lord, the sins and offenses of your servants, and hallow our lips in your loving-kindness, that they may yield the fruits of glory to your exalted Godhead with all your saints in your kingdom, (aloud) and make us worthy, our Lord, and our God, to stand before you continually without spot, with a pure heart and with confidence; and with the liberty which is from you, through the mercies given to us, that we may all equally cry out and say in this manner:
People: Our Father, who art in heaven…For yours is the kingdom…
Priest: O Lord God of hosts, our good God and our merciful Father, we beseech you and supplicate the abundance of your mercy, “do not,” my Lord, “bring us to the test, but deliver us from the Evil One” and his hosts, for yours is the kingdom, power, might, strength, and dominion, in heaven and on earth, now, and ever, and to the ages of ages, Amen.
- The Holy Qurbana of Addai and Mari
Choir: Our Father, who art in heaven…
Priest (secretly): Yes, Lord, “lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil,” for your great mercy knows that we through our great infirmity are unable to resist; but make with the temptation also a way of escape, that we might be able to withstand, for you have given us power to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and on all the might of the enemy, (aloud) for yours is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, now and ever and to the ages of ages, Amen.
- Divine Liturgy of St. Mark
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Mystophilus
Guest
Or ΟΤΙ ϹΟΥ ΕϹΤΙΝ Η ΒΑϹΙΛΕΙΑ ΚΑΙ Η ΔΥΝΑΜΙϹ ΚΑΙ Η ΔΟΧΑ if we want to be really pedantic about it!Ὅτι σοῦ ἐστιν ἡ βασιλεία καὶ ἡ δύναμις καὶ ἡ δόξα.
I actually prefer the look of the lower case, though.With Greek alphabet with diacritics, or without diacritics, or English transliteration I have no problem. When people use a symbolic code for the diacritics on top of some sort of letter-substitution scheme and so I have to work out which letter is meant, I get a headache trying to figure it out. Latin, on the other hand, is always hard work.
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patrick457
Guest
You mean:Or ΟΤΙ ϹΟΥ ΕϹΤΙΝ Η ΒΑϹΙΛΕΙΑ ΚΑΙ Η ΔΥΝΑΜΙϹ ΚΑΙ Η ΔΟΧΑ if we want to be really pedantic about it!
With Greek alphabet with diacritics, or without diacritics, or English transliteration I have no problem. When people use a symbolic code for the diacritics on top of some sort of letter-substitution scheme and so I have to work out which letter is meant, I get a headache trying to figure it out. Latin, on the other hand, is always hard work.
ΟΤΙϹΟΥΕϹΤΙΝΗΒΑϹΙΛΕΙΑΚΑΙΗΔΥΝΑΜΙϹΚΑΙΗΔΟΧΑ
Don’t you?
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Mystophilus
Guest
True! Scripta continua!You mean:
ΟΤΙϹΟΥΕϹΤΙΝΗΒΑϹΙΛΕΙΑΚΑΙΗΔΥΝΑΜΙϹΚΑΙΗΔΟΧΑ
Don’t you?
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patrick457
Guest
You know, I’m tempted to quote the form of the doxology used in the Divine Liturgy (with the τοῦ Πατρὸς καὶ τοῦ Υἱοῦ καὶ τοῦ Ἁγίου Πνεύματος, etc. tacked in) so I could have an excuse to display nomina sacra.True! Scripta continua!
(I know our conversation’s getting hard to follow for the uninitiated. Sorry folks
)- Status