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Robert_Sock
Guest
Yes, God is the higher love, but we must not forget about the saints and other souls in Heaven! They are all a part of a higher love that can humble the brightest person here on earth.
- Status
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Credo_in_Deum
Guest
I have a question and dont worry its a rhetorical one.
:And now a Word from our Lord:
.-- John 15:5*
From one fellow branch to another: KNOW YOUR PLACE
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Robert_Sock
Guest
Heaven is my throne, and the earth my footstool.
-Acts Of Apostles 7:49
-Acts Of Apostles 7:49
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valentino
Guest
RobertRock:Yes I understand.Thanks.
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razredge
Guest
So we can do nothing at all without God? I can’t raise my hand without God?I have a question and dont worry its a rhetorical one.
And now a Word from our Lord:
From one fellow branch to another: KNOW YOUR PLACE
Clearly, that is not the point of the scripture - God gave us brains for us to use them, it’s kind of pointless for God to give us brains that are useless unless he also sends us divine inspiration.
Q
Quarles47
Guest
By the Grace of God
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Credo_in_Deum
Guest
*That’s correct my friend. You cannot use your eyes, ears, hands, or anything without God. The only thing God does not control is your free will: this he has given to you to govern. You see my friend God is keeping you in existence and because He is keeping you in existence there is nothing that you are not dependent on Him for e.g., being able to move your arms, your heart beating, the blood flowing through your body, etc. That is unless my friend you can will yourself to exist. This is why sin is so wrong because your choosing to go against Gods will while using His gifts to do so.
Don’t you remember in the Scriptures when Christ was being condemned before Pontius Pilate and Pilate says he has the power to free Christ or send him to his death? What was Christ response?*
*
*No power unless given to him from above; from GOD.
If God is the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE how do you claim you have anything or can do anything without Him? I’am interested to see your Scripture verses that backup your claim.
D
donsnow
Guest
Hi, Robert,
It’s wonderous, how a quote from a wisdom book written over two thousand years ago can still ring true in our technocracy, today.
There are Hindi sutras, describing machines that fly with instructions on how to build and operated them, I’ve heard.
The Hopi native Americans have traditions of people flying in aircraft.
One of our early astronauts, when returning from orbiting the earth in his capsule who said, “There are things up there.” Personally, I wonder if those things were satellite from an earlier space age, 10,000 years ago.
I think that God in His wisdom, when He gave us the Holy Bible, limited it’s story to the generation of Adam and Eve until Jesus Christ, for its beginnings. All before that were gone beneath the previous floods. (I can see where Gen. 1, 1 could describe a planet covered by water, the second flood. Just before the advent of Jesus Christ, a Greek in Egypt was told by a priest * that the Earth had been destroyed five times: thrice by flood and twice by fire.) I believe that God in His wisdom did not load us down with lots of insignificant history … it all spells out entire civilizations turning from God and occasioning starting over on this planet. Ours is the time which has significance: the birth of His son to a virgin. God’s version of the ultimate solution, send His son come in His own, not reincarnated, flesh. The outreach of divine love in its fullest.
So, yes, prehistory has its own number of world civilizations before now. And, some of them as technological as ours has reached, maybe more technology than we have, all here on Earth. But, it’s our time that God sent Jesus the Christ as a babe from the womb of woman, conceived by the power of His Holy Spirit. The technology is a distracter, imho. Life remains the same with or without it, imho.
Similar to you, I wonder if Satan brings the technology. In my heart, civilization is not roads, palaces, schools and technology. Civilization, rather, is how we treat each other at any level of buildings and technology. Whether the structures or tents, megalithic stones or glass is not germane. That people love their Creator with whole hearts and minds and love each other as their selves, that is germane.
I can believe all that I have written here, and still say that the Holy Bible is the inspired word of God, one Author through many prophets, scribes, poets and Apostles and disciples. The Holy Bible is very much the book for our time.
And, I believe that the Holy Roman Catholic Church, its Magesterium, Traditions and teachings on the Holy Bible is very much the Church for our time, from Jesus Christ’s birth until His second coming.
God loves you,
Don*
It’s wonderous, how a quote from a wisdom book written over two thousand years ago can still ring true in our technocracy, today.
There are Hindi sutras, describing machines that fly with instructions on how to build and operated them, I’ve heard.
The Hopi native Americans have traditions of people flying in aircraft.
One of our early astronauts, when returning from orbiting the earth in his capsule who said, “There are things up there.” Personally, I wonder if those things were satellite from an earlier space age, 10,000 years ago.
I think that God in His wisdom, when He gave us the Holy Bible, limited it’s story to the generation of Adam and Eve until Jesus Christ, for its beginnings. All before that were gone beneath the previous floods. (I can see where Gen. 1, 1 could describe a planet covered by water, the second flood. Just before the advent of Jesus Christ, a Greek in Egypt was told by a priest * that the Earth had been destroyed five times: thrice by flood and twice by fire.) I believe that God in His wisdom did not load us down with lots of insignificant history … it all spells out entire civilizations turning from God and occasioning starting over on this planet. Ours is the time which has significance: the birth of His son to a virgin. God’s version of the ultimate solution, send His son come in His own, not reincarnated, flesh. The outreach of divine love in its fullest.
So, yes, prehistory has its own number of world civilizations before now. And, some of them as technological as ours has reached, maybe more technology than we have, all here on Earth. But, it’s our time that God sent Jesus the Christ as a babe from the womb of woman, conceived by the power of His Holy Spirit. The technology is a distracter, imho. Life remains the same with or without it, imho.
Similar to you, I wonder if Satan brings the technology. In my heart, civilization is not roads, palaces, schools and technology. Civilization, rather, is how we treat each other at any level of buildings and technology. Whether the structures or tents, megalithic stones or glass is not germane. That people love their Creator with whole hearts and minds and love each other as their selves, that is germane.
I can believe all that I have written here, and still say that the Holy Bible is the inspired word of God, one Author through many prophets, scribes, poets and Apostles and disciples. The Holy Bible is very much the book for our time.
And, I believe that the Holy Roman Catholic Church, its Magesterium, Traditions and teachings on the Holy Bible is very much the Church for our time, from Jesus Christ’s birth until His second coming.
God loves you,
Don*
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Robert_Sock
Guest
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razredge
Guest
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John21652
Guest
You forget that mankind builds machines that in turn build machines. Walk into a car manufacturing plant and marvel at the computer controlled machines making, shaping and constructing other machines. Even a simple tyre lever is a machine, as is a spanner (wrench). Mankind has used his God given intelligence to specialise and so the machine builders are outnumbered by the machine users. Human nkowledge is transferable. That’s what Universities and science manuals are for. Knowlwedge is transportable across national and cultural boundaries. That is why Asian students study in the west and why foreign students can be found in almost every university in the world. Take your focus off machines for a moment and ask yourself could you grow food crops, look after farm animals and supply enough food stuffs to feed countless families each year? How is it that around 8% of a nations population can feed an entire nation? It is because knowledge is transferable and people specialise. farmers operate machines built by others and utilise their acquired knowledge of machines to grow crops and raise livestock, the knowledge of which is theirs. Doctors represent a small percentage of a population, yet hundreds of thousands of other humans are kept alive and healthy through the specialised knowledge and skills of the docors. The doctors also use machines designed and built by other specialists. Designers themselves are specialists and they get others to do the building, unlike many years ago when designers were also builders. Do you know how to build a house? That was a basic skill humans needed for thousands of years. Most of us now cannot build a house. People have given up much of the basic knowledge which helped people survive for thousands of years, like building houses, growing food and making clothing and they have specialised. There is nothing miraculous in any of that because almost all of that specialising has come about because of the economic links that exist between people.
We each specialise because it allows us to be more producive. We can produce more of what it is we specialise in and that makes the thing we produce (even if it is a service) much more plentiful and therefore much more affordable according to the economic system we have put in place. We measure the worth, or value, of what each specialist produces in amounts called “dollars”. Individuals can decide for themselves what the value, or utility of a thing is to them as individuals by using that economic measure. Humans therefore use a monetary ‘system’ to order production and consumption. Humans are very good at creating ‘systems’. We have systems of family, of nations and of production. Systems come about because humans can, if they so choose, co-operate. Co-operation, humans have learnt, has value, or offers great social value and that value is measured by a special system, as already m,entioned.
Learning the value of these socially valuable systems has not come readily, or easily. The evidence of history shows us that a large part of human history and experience has been one of non-cooperation, with its resultant conflict and destruction. The wars of human history, particularly the wars of the twentieth century which resulted in millions and millions of displaced, disadvantaged and even dead people shows that non-cooperation can be very costly, both in terms of uility and value.The contemporary disconnect between peoples of certain societies is still evidence that the historical lessons regarding co-operation are still being learnt today. co-operation is a learned behaviour and humanity has been learning hard lessons for a very long time.
The rise in the building and use of machines is proof that human co-operation can give ise to better and healthier lifestyles, even longer life spans. All of it, the rise in co-operation and the ability to specialise and to be able to trust the work of another, has been a lesson in the use of human free will. The development of nuclear technology is neither a good thing or a bad thing. Nuclear machines can either kill or cure, according to the exercising of the free will of those who utilise that technology. Free will, as we understand it, is God given. Human free will can be used for good, or used for bad. It is entirely up the the human agents. For millenia, the use of free will has been guided by a system we call ‘morality’. Morality is just another system put in place by human beings. As Catholics, we recognise the influence and the lessons which have come from devine sources. Many do not. This system of morality can be seen as the “glue” which holds human societies together and gives rise to that co-operation which humans have been learning is a most valuable system. Should that shared morality fracture, as it has done countless times throughout history, then co-operation will lessen. Unless, of course, it is replaced by man made laws, a proliferation of which seems to have occured in recent history and to which humans must give their allegiance if they wish to remain co-operative. The lessons of history also show that man made laws which replace morality can be wrong for a variety of reasons and eventually lead to disharmony, disunity and so to non-cooperation.
It is all according to the exercise of man’s free will.
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Robert_Sock
Guest
John,
You basically ignore my basic premise, that there is not enough innate wit available in humans to design and manufacture the machines and tooling needed to make our world come to where it is today. We must give credit where credit is due, to God (and Satan!)! Yes, after the fact you can look around at the computerized technology, and the cooperation of humans, and marvel, but this is not my premise! My premise, again, is the lack of innate wit in humans to have made these things to come about in the first place! My premise has more to do with the invention and building of the first machines and tools! Please go back to my first post and re-read what’s on my mind!
Much of what you speak about above is a product of Satan and the evil impulse within humans! I did not get into this too much because it’s really is a different topic: The creation of the upper and lower worlds of creation and how they influence each other!
You basically ignore my basic premise, that there is not enough innate wit available in humans to design and manufacture the machines and tooling needed to make our world come to where it is today. We must give credit where credit is due, to God (and Satan!)! Yes, after the fact you can look around at the computerized technology, and the cooperation of humans, and marvel, but this is not my premise! My premise, again, is the lack of innate wit in humans to have made these things to come about in the first place! My premise has more to do with the invention and building of the first machines and tools! Please go back to my first post and re-read what’s on my mind!
Much of what you speak about above is a product of Satan and the evil impulse within humans! I did not get into this too much because it’s really is a different topic: The creation of the upper and lower worlds of creation and how they influence each other!
J
John21652
Guest
Piffle.
I even quoted your ‘basic premise’ in the quotation box at the start of my response. The trouble with your rambling first post is that you have a number of ‘premises’. If you take the time to read my response carefully, even reading between the lines where necessary, you will note that I answered every single ‘premise’ your post contained.
Furthermore, your persistence in stating that humanity does not have the basic wit to concieve, build and maintain the world and all it contains is an insult to God himself. I wrote that mankind, using his free will, given by God, can co-operate to transfer knowledge and so build a better world, yet you say it is all the work of Satan. Dare you say that Penicillin is the product of Satan? Dare you say that the use of nuclear medicine is the product of Satan? Dare you say that a Doctor saving the life of a mother and child using all the tools at his disposal is doing Satan’s work? Dare you say that the system of morality which mankind has built and which has allowed great co-operative societies to grow, flourish and to be inventive, is the product of Satan?
It all began with the simplest of tools; simple levers and through co-operation, mankind has transferred and developed the use of tools, so that today, the principles of simple tools are to be seen even in computerised factories where cars are built. That is why I mentioned car making factories!
Humans do indeed have the ‘innate wit’ to build great machines and great societies. The proof is all around you. Have you ever used a tire lever? Your ancestors first used similar tools and that has been passed down to those who now build bigger and better machines, one of which you probably own and upon which you have used your very own tire lever. In case you never had the ‘innate wit’ to use a tire lever, I’m sure someone else wrote and included an instruction manual to show you how to use that tire lever. Just think, mankind, using his God given free will, invented writing and even machines that can mass produce communication in the written form. All to make sure you can use that tire lever properly and effectively. After reading this, I hope you are not tempted to bash yourself, or someone else, over the head with that tire lever. That sort behaviour, I’m pretty sure, is not written in the instruction manual and would indeed be a product of Satan’s influence upon you!
I even mentioned the examples of history where morality and co-operation amongst men failed; of where mankind’s God given free will was not used according to ‘the good’ and yes, machines of destruction where built by men. Those machines of destruction use the same technological principles that the machines and technology that serve man well. Obviously, how technology is used is according to the free will of man. How you use that tire lever depends upon how you use your God given free will.
Have you not read that God created man in His image? Have you not read that God breathed life into man? Do you not think that ‘image’ and that creation would also include a modicum of creative intelligence? If you think otherwise, then you insult God.
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Robert_Sock
Guest
How many people do you know who have the innate wit to efficiently manufacture a simple box of toothpicks in a reasonable amount of time? Come on, the answer is NONE! (And there is no machine in the world today that can build a specialized machine, like a toothpick machine, automatically!) Now try to explain who has the innate wit to design and build each and every item found in our world today! Here you would have around a century to build the entire world around you! (If you can find him, or them, I would like to shack hands with the ultra intelligent, godlike person who built the machines necessary to produce computer chips! Designing the computer chip is a “cinch” compared to designing and building the machines to manufacture the chips.)
Our world is corrupt with evil! Who else but Satan has the power to influence such a world? We lost our innocence with Original Sin! To a large degree, our world was given over to the power of Satan! If technology was provided by God things would work flawlessly!
Take the time to see where I’m coming from and I’m sure you will begin to agree!
J
John21652
Guest
Your piffle is becoming even more piffling.
I can easily build a box containing toothpicks. Furthermore, I can fashion materials out of wood and steel. I know how to harvest wood, shape it and turn it into tools and even into furniture. Because an individual specialises in one thing, or a few things, does that mean they don’t have the wit to do other things. Does it?
Here you have changed your original premise from men building machines to machines building other machines automatically. I’ll forgive you your disengenuousness, this time, and play along…
I would imagine that there are machines which automatically make toothpicks, or else there are still men and women sitting around whittling their lives away churning out little sharpened sticks so you can pick your teeth. Considering how cheap toothpicks are, I’d reckon on them being machine mass produced, using very clever machines invented, designed and maintained by clever God given human brains. However, I can’t say I have ever been inside a toothpick factory, so my knowledge doesn’t extend to being a toothpick machine expert. I have, however, been inside a modern car manufacturing factory, where robotic machines build entire machines called cars, automatically.
Here you are being less than honest. Did I not say that humans have specialised in what it is they do? To suggest that there could be one individual who could build everything is just plain rediculous. An individual could never build a skyscraper. That is impossible, just like two plus two equalling five is impossible. Can you grow your own food? Can you manufacture spare parts for your own car? Can you read the instruction manual that came with your car and which tells you how and when to use a tire lever? For all of this you can thank your fellow human beings, who, using their God given talents, have organised themselves, specialised and delivered to you a world where you are mighty comforable. Did I not say that humans are capable of co-operating in the invention, building and maintenance of great and wonderful technology and that the knolwedge to do so can also be transferred from person to person? That is how skyscrapers are built and why tire levers are used mainly for taking tires off wheels and not for hitting others over the head. Do you not think all that takes great wit?
I’d bet that the fellow who designed and built the machine to build the chips would have been using the same God given talents that the men who designed the chip used. Each specialised and became an expert at what he does. What they did was equivalent. Personally, I would say that chopping down a tree and turning the wood into a chair is harder than the above. What say you?
Piffle!
Who else but humanity, with the glorious God given power of Free Will can tell Satan to go take a hike?!
Who else but mankind can glory God with all that he invents and all that he does?
Answer - no-one.
Our world was given over to the power of man, who is made powerful by his God given free will. All technology is man made and therefore will not always work flawlessly. Considering how man himself is not a god, he does a pretty good job of making the world work. Do you hanker for the power of God to be amongst men? It is and has been ever since he breathed life into Adams nostrils. You have read about that, haven’t you?
Agree? Never! You are writing pessimistic, anti-human piffle. An insult to your own God.
Go and watch the workings of a modern hospital and see how amazing technology saves lives when used by good people using their free wills. Go and watch in a modern car factory as machines, designed, built and made by intelligent men make transport easier for countless millions. Step into a school and watch as students use simple and complex tools that help them work towards using their God given talents for creative purposes and for a better future. Go and stand and watch as a man or woman stands supervising children as they cross a road after school. They are a part of the cooperation that has resulted from the use of free will. Amaze at the inventiveness of the computer you use and at all its attendent systems that allows a person in a far off land to tell you to stop being so pessimistic and to see the good in the world and to stop writing piffle!!
D
donsnow
Guest
Gentlemen,
I have to give each of you credit.
Sometimes, when I say grace before a meal, I stop to think of all the different people’s labor and machines which the food I am about to ingest has gone through, to reach my plate. I do not see Satan in this reflection, but rather the grace of our God through His son come in the flesh, Jesus Christ.
On the other hand, machine guns and other such tools of war are quite questionable as to the grace of God.
The tinkering with DNA and cloning of animals could be satanic.
So, I think that some technologies have the influence of Satan.
Yes, humanities free will, a free gift of our Creator, has accomplished much for God and much for Satan.
I guess not taking sides, I’m not much help.
God loves you both,
Don
I have to give each of you credit.
Sometimes, when I say grace before a meal, I stop to think of all the different people’s labor and machines which the food I am about to ingest has gone through, to reach my plate. I do not see Satan in this reflection, but rather the grace of our God through His son come in the flesh, Jesus Christ.
On the other hand, machine guns and other such tools of war are quite questionable as to the grace of God.
The tinkering with DNA and cloning of animals could be satanic.
So, I think that some technologies have the influence of Satan.
Yes, humanities free will, a free gift of our Creator, has accomplished much for God and much for Satan.
I guess not taking sides, I’m not much help.
God loves you both,
Don
R
Robert_Sock
Guest
You’re not being open-minded and I refuse to argue for the sack of arguing. I have said what I wanted to say and I’ll let the informed reader make his or her own judgment.Your piffle is becoming even more piffling.
I can easily build a box containing toothpicks. Furthermore, I can fashion materials out of wood and steel. I know how to harvest wood, shape it and turn it into tools and even into furniture. Because an individual specialises in one thing, or a few things, does that mean they don’t have the wit to do other things. Does it?
Here you have changed your original premise from men building machines to machines building other machines automatically. I’ll forgive you your disengenuousness, this time, and play along…
I would imagine that there are machines which automatically make toothpicks, or else there are still men and women sitting around whittling their lives away churning out little sharpened sticks so you can pick your teeth. Considering how cheap toothpicks are, I’d reckon on them being machine mass produced, using very clever machines invented, designed and maintained by clever God given human brains. However, I can’t say I have ever been inside a toothpick factory, so my knowledge doesn’t extend to being a toothpick machine expert. I have, however, been inside a modern car manufacturing factory, where robotic machines build entire machines called cars, automatically.
Here you are being less than honest. Did I not say that humans have specialised in what it is they do? To suggest that there could be one individual who could build everything is just plain rediculous. An individual could never build a skyscraper. That is impossible, just like two plus two equalling five is impossible. Can you grow your own food? Can you manufacture spare parts for your own car? Can you read the instruction manual that came with your car and which tells you how and when to use a tire lever? For all of this you can thank your fellow human beings, who, using their God given talents, have organised themselves, specialised and delivered to you a world where you are mighty comforable. Did I not say that humans are capable of co-operating in the invention, building and maintenance of great and wonderful technology and that the knolwedge to do so can also be transferred from person to person? That is how skyscrapers are built and why tire levers are used mainly for taking tires off wheels and not for hitting others over the head. Do you not think all that takes great wit?
I’d bet that the fellow who designed and built the machine to build the chips would have been using the same God given talents that the men who designed the chip used. Each specialised and became an expert at what he does. What they did was equivalent. Personally, I would say that chopping down a tree and turning the wood into a chair is harder than the above. What say you?
Piffle!
Who else but humanity, with the glorious God given power of Free Will can tell Satan to go take a hike?!
Who else but mankind can glory God with all that he invents and all that he does?
Answer - no-one.
Our world was given over to the power of man, who is made powerful by his God given free will. All technology is man made and therefore will not always work flawlessly. Considering how man himself is not a god, he does a pretty good job of making the world work. Do you hanker for the power of God to be amongst men? It is and has been ever since he breathed life into Adams nostrils. You have read about that, haven’t you?
Agree? Never! You are writing pessimistic, anti-human piffle. An insult to your own God.
Go and watch the workings of a modern hospital and see how amazing technology saves lives when used by good people using their free wills. Go and watch in a modern car factory as machines, designed, built and made by intelligent men make transport easier for countless millions. Step into a school and watch as students use simple and complex tools that help them work towards using their God given talents for creative purposes and for a better future. Go and stand and watch as a man or woman stands supervising children as they cross a road after school. They are a part of the cooperation that has resulted from the use of free will. Amaze at the inventiveness of the computer you use and at all its attendent systems that allows a person in a far off land to tell you to stop being so pessimistic and to see the good in the world and to stop writing piffle!!
J
John21652
Guest
Aw Don, c’mon man, please make a stand. Gee whiz, even a humble knife, first invented thousands of years ago can be used for evil purposes. It has served mankind well in many different ways, whether skinning hard won game, cutting up food, cutting ropes, shaping wood and in a thousand other ways. However, down through history many thousands of people have been killed and wounded by knife wielding humans. Does that make a knife an instrument of the devil? Absolutely no way! The use of a knife to cause harm is a misuse of the free will of the person so using the knife. The knife is neither moral, nor immoral; it is not and cannot ever be a moral agent. That role, with the ability to choose between good and bad use of a knife, is man’s lot.
So too is the use to which any other technology is put. It is minds free will and his intellect that must decide upon the correct use of whatever technology he has available. That is the way it has been since the dawn of time. A simple tool such as a club can be used to supply food, keep people safe, or used as a weapon to terrorise others. It is man’s choice.
The same argument applies to machine guns, Don. They can be in storage to deter would be enemies, or they can be weapons of aggression. Again, mankind has moral choices to make regarding their use. No doubt, having a superior machine gun to thine enemy might be a very good way of deterring that enemy and so keeping the peace, himself and you, safe. If one owns a superior machine gun, then thank God the superior intellect behind its development is one of your own moral society!!
The argument that because any technology, even a knife or a club, might be used as a weapon, or for some evil purpose, is no reason to blame Satan for its existence. A motor car, even a horse, can be used as a weapon of terror, inflicting harm onto others. neither, I submit, are Satan’s work. To suggest otherwise is to insult the very God that gave mankind free will and an intellect “in his image”. The blame for misuse of technology, no matter how simple or sophisticated, is the direct result of the misuse of free will. Nothing more and nothing less. Blame man and man.
R
razredge
Guest
You’re wasting your time - I already said as much to him.
First the the geocentrists, now this guy - boy, they certainly are some loony Catholics on here
When I first started reading these boards I used to think that they were on here just to stealth troll and that they actually didn’t hold such absurd views - I was wrong!
J
John21652
Guest
Oh, indeed I am being open minded and because I am being open minded I see the glory of God in all that mankind is capable of. You, on the other hand, see nothing but misery and destruction caused by machines. You will not acknowledge the role of mankind’s free will in the affairs of the world. Instead, you blame Satan for the world’s ills. That very conveniently abrogates mankind’s responsibility for evil acts and the misuse of technology. That’s a cop out and an insult to God. It’s the equivalent of running to daddy and crying “It aint my fault, he made me do it”.
I challenge you to answer the points of my argument and not to run away and hide.
- Status