Things I don't understand about catholicism

[klm120861]

Why do Catholics pray to saints,there is nothing about it in the scripture(Atleast KJV) as far as I am aware?

Also what exactly is purgatory and is it referenced in the scripture?

Welcome to the journey! I am a former Protestant (specifically Assemblies of God) wannabe pastor who ended up in the Roman Catholic Church. I understand all of the questions involved in the search about the Church. Toward that end, I have written (still am writing) a series of blogs using the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I go through each section and explain what it means especially as a contrast to common Protestant teachings. It’s found at explorefaith.blog.com I started with the Nicene Creed, wrote on the Liturgy, and am now on the seven sacraments: Baptism, Confirmation, Eucharist, Reconciliation, Anointing of the Sick, Holy Orders, and Matrimony, The last post was on Purgatory. It’s something that might be helpful, because, at least for me, sometimes I felt like I needed a Catholic to English dictionary or maybe a Catholic to Protestant dictionary! Sometimes I still do!
If you have any questions, feel free to PM me.
Kris

 

[PJM]

=Tx3bro;10212062]Why do Catholics pray to saints,there is nothing about it in the scripture(Atleast KJV) as far as I am aware?

Also what exactly is purgatory and is it referenced in the scripture?

Perhaps my friend I can clarify for you this often WRONG understanding of what we catholic actually Do

We are accussed of “idoal worship”; AND I NOTE QUIICKLY THAT YOU HAVE NOT DONE SO. Thank you:thumbsup:

As I will prove here shortly; what we Catholics Do [or at least what the CC teaches us to do] is FAR MORE PRAYING THROUGH; rather than just “too” Mary and the Saints. GOD IS, and NEEDS TO BE the end goal of our prayers.

Take for example the “Hail Mary”; BY FAR the most commonly said Catholic prayer.

***Hail Mary, [Lk. 1:28]
Full of Grace [Lk. 1:28]
The Lord is with thee [Lk 1:27]
Blessed are you among all women [Lk 1:42]
And Blessed in the fruit of your womb: Jesus [Lk. 1;42]
Holy Mary [Lk.1: 28]
Mother of God 1:35
Pray for us sinners [our catholic petition] PRAYING THROUGH Her!
Now and at the hour of our death
Amen” ***

As you can now see for yourself; what I explained is 1. Biblically founded 2. accurately explained.

DO WE HAVE TO PRAY TO MARY AND THE SAINTS?

NO! It’s suggested BUT NOT mandated

Then why do it?

Because Mary and the **S **aints ARE in God’s Real presence.

They add their own prayers on-top pf ours then personally present them to God on our behalf. So our prayers then are made more effective.

As far as PURGATORY; note that the term “bible” 9itself is NOT IN THE BIBLE

EACH of these reference specifically Purgatory:

Lev.22: 21 “And when any one offers a sacrifice of peace offerings to the LORD, to fulfill a vow or as a freewill offering, from the herd or from the flock, to be accepted it must be perfect; there shall be no blemish in it.

Rev. 21: 27 “But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

Mt. 5: 26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

Matt.5: 48 “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

Heb. 2: 10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering.

BECASUE GOD IS PERFECT; MAN MUST BE EITHER "PERFECT"UPOM HIS DEATH OR DIE W/O UNCONFESSED / UNFORGIVEN [JN.20;21-23 & 1 JN. 5:16-17] “MORTAL SINS” [unto spiritual death], or perfected after death to attain heaven.

Purgatory is sort of a “Soul-Wash” that God permits from His Mercy and Love so that more souls CAN get to heaven.

What MANY do not comprehend is that ALL sins have a “public nature” [an efect on others] that too must be repaid to be made perfect. It’s termed “TEMPORAL Punishment” and can be repaid while on earth by prayers, sacrifiecs, charity and other prescribed acts
through Indulgences. The issue is God alone knows what this debt is and to what degree we have repaid it.

Hope these brief answers provide some benefit to you.

welcome to the FORUM!
pat/PJM**

 

[peace2u2]

Why do Catholics pray to saints,there is nothing about it in the scripture(Atleast KJV) as far as I am aware?

Also what exactly is purgatory and is it referenced in the scripture?

The Saints in Heaven are our friends even though we haven’t (or maybe we have) met them yet.

The Church provides information on their lives so that we will have good role models to emulate and to know that we are not alone in our struggles here on earth and that it is possible to be a Saint. I believe in St. Paul’s letters, he doesn’t say that we already are saints, but we are called to be saints.

When we pray to them we are asking them to pray for us because they understand the same trials that we are going thru because they’ve been there already and they are praying that we will resist temptation and perservere. We are all part of what the Church calls the Community of Faithful; some live in Heaven, some live on earth and some are in Purgatory, although they can’t pray for us, yet.

As far as Purgatory, yes it’s Scriptural. I believe some references would be the following:

OT: Daniel 3, story of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego
2 Maccabees (chapter 12 ?)
Job 1:5

NT: 1 Cor.3:12-15
Heb 12:14
Rev 21:27
Mt 5:25-26
Lk 12:58

All of the Sacraments of the Catholic Church are rooted in the Old Testament and instituted by Christ in the New Testament.

Peace2U in your journey.

 

[LegoGE1947]

The Saints in Heaven are our friends even though we haven’t (or maybe we have) met them yet.

The Church provides information on their lives so that we will have good role models to emulate and to know that we are not alone in our struggles here on earth and that it is possible to be a Saint. I believe in St. Paul’s letters, he doesn’t say that we already are saints, but we are called to be saints.

When we pray to them we are asking them to pray for us because they understand the same trials that we are going thru because they’ve been there already and they are praying that we will resist temptation and perservere. We are all part of what the Church calls the Community of Faithful; some live in Heaven, some live on earth and some are in Purgatory, although they can’t pray for us, yet.

As far as Purgatory, yes it’s Scriptural. I believe some references would be the following:

OT: Daniel 3, story of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego
2 Maccabees (chapter 12 ?)
Job 1:5

NT: 1 Cor.3:12-15
Heb 12:14
Rev 21:27
Mt 5:25-26
Lk 12:58

All of the Sacraments of the Catholic Church are rooted in the Old Testament and instituted by Christ in the New Testament.

Peace2U in your journey.

I always was led to believe, as a protestant, that if I was “born again” I am already a saint.

 

[PJM]

=LegoGE1947;10225717]I always was led to believe, as a protestant, that if I was “born again” I am already a saint.

Yes, I’ve heard that too.

The Reality is that its JUST NOT BIBLICAL or IMO, even logical.

From a bible stand ponit one can make such a case ONLY by culling passages that seem to support their position; but when placed in total context Teachings fall FAR short of making this case.

Theologically [and at least IMO] logically it falls short because it
1. Denies God His Soverign right to Jusde us on ALL thant we do

Rom. 2:6 “Who will render to every man according to his works.”

Rev. 20:12 “And I saw the dead, great and small, standing in the presence of the throne, and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged by those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev. 22:12 “Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to every man according to his works”

2. AND mans inate right to exercise our intellect; mind and freewill:

Deuteronomy 30:19 " I call heaven and earth to witness this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Choose therefore life, that both thou and thy seed may live"

Ecclesiasticus 15:18 “Before man is life and death, good and evil, that which he shall choose shall be given him”

Matthew 19:17 JESUS HIMSELF TEACHING: “But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments”

God Bless,
pat/PJM

 

[LegoGE1947]

Yes, I’ve heard that too.

The Reality is that its JUST NOT BIBLICAL or IMO, even logical.

From a bible stand ponit one can make such a case ONLY by culling passages that seem to support their position; but when placed in total context Teachings fall FAR short of making this case.

Theologically [and at least IMO] logically it falls short because it
1. Denies God His Soverign right to Jusde us on ALL thant we do

Rom. 2:6 “Who will render to every man according to his works.”

Rev. 20:12 “And I saw the dead, great and small, standing in the presence of the throne, and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged by those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev. 22:12 “Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to every man according to his works”

2. AND mans inate right to exercise our intellect; mind and freewill:

Deuteronomy 30:19 " I call heaven and earth to witness this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Choose therefore life, that both thou and thy seed may live"

Ecclesiasticus 15:18 “Before man is life and death, good and evil, that which he shall choose shall be given him”

Matthew 19:17 JESUS HIMSELF TEACHING: “But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments”

God Bless,
pat/PJM

I think many a Protestant Bible teacher somehow passes over these verses. ( of course Ecclesiasticus is not even IN Protestant Bibles) But the Deuteronomy verse certainly is and it says the same thing as the Ecclesiasticus verse does.

 

[klm120861]

I always was led to believe, as a protestant, that if I was “born again” I am already a saint.

In my understanding of Catholic teaching, when we belong to the Body of Christ, we are saints. Note the lower case “s”.

Certain people, based on the holiness of their lives, are declared to be Saints, note the capital “S” after they have died. Two of the ones everyone knows of are St. Patrick, and St. Francis of Assisi. They are assigned their own feast day on the Liturgical Calendar (the calendar of the Roman Catholic Church)

The Church also acknowledges the fact that there are probably many multitudes of Saints (capital “S”) who are not (currently) on the calendar.
Kris

 

[LegoGE1947]

In my understanding of Catholic teaching, when we belong to the Body of Christ, we are saints. Note the lower case “s”.

Certain people, based on the holiness of their lives, are declared to be Saints, note the capital “S” after they have died. Two of the ones everyone knows of are St. Patrick, and St. Francis of Assisi. They are assigned their own feast day on the Liturgical Calendar (the calendar of the Roman Catholic Church)

The Church also acknowledges the fact that there are probably many multitudes of Saints (capital “S”) who are not (currently) on the calendar.
Kris

That was my understanding as a protestant as well, that if we belong to the Body of Christ, we are saints. Those who have died are still saints (still with a small “s”).

 

[rcwitness]

NFPGirl - your analogy does not take into account that the debt for our sins* has been fully paid by Christ on the cross.*

In real life, we have to make restitution. However, in your analogy, the payment for the window is the payment for the sin. We no not pay for the sin - Christ did. Penance is not payment. Christ’s payment is sufficient for the debt of the sin.

So, in your analogy, your father (Christ) paid fully for the broken window for you.

Purgatory seems to simply be the place that we are made clean enough to enter heaven. Okay.

This is a very important statement. From my understanding of official teaching, our prayers, offerings, and gifts are only a petition for forgiveness. It is the Lord’s will in which we request pardons and is always His decision to honor or reject. All good deeds, sufferrings, and prayers honored by Him are united to His Passion (Which is the only acceptable offering to God). Col. 1:24 “Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of His body, that is, the Church.” A Catholic note on this: Christ’s sufferings were, of course, sufficient for our redemption, but all of us may add ours to His, in order that the fruits of His redemption be applied to the souls of men.

God Bless, Michael

Hope PaulinVA aproves my coments as well

 

[pablope]

Why do Catholics pray to saints,there is nothing about it in the scripture(Atleast KJV) as far as I am aware?

We got it from the Jews…calledtocommunion.com/2012/08/relics-saints-and-the-assumption-of-mary/

Brown challenged my view that the place of saints and relics in the church was a mere holdover from paganism, and that the practice was somehow peripheral to true Christianity. Instead, Brown painted a picture of ancient Christianity and paganism in which relics were indispensable to the former, and repulsive to the latter. Far from a holdover from paganism, the place of relics in the Church appeared as something intensely Jewish, Hebraic, and Old Testament. Pagans, like Julian-the-Apostate, found the practice revolting and legislated against it. (Paganism, with its notions of ritual purity, had strictly delimited the realm of divine worship and neatly separated it from the realm of corpses and the dead.)

Also what exactly is purgatory and is it referenced in the scripture?

 

[Church_Militant]

I have a couple of articles on my blog that may help you out on these things.

The Intercession & Communion of Saints
Biblical and Jewish Traditional Beliefs About Purgatory
Welcome to CAF. Keep talking my friend, we’re listening.

 

[PJM]

=PaulinVA;NFPGirl - your analogy does not take into account that the debt for our sins* has been fully paid by Christ on the cross.*

Hi Paula;

While I expect your right to hold to any beliefs you choose; the position that Christ has made “full and final payment” for anyone and everyone who acknowledges Him as our God and Potential Savior; is not biblically grounded IF and when one uses the Entire Bible and not simply culled passages.

The problem stem from assuming; incorrectly that “Redemption” and “Salvation” are sinuous terms. They are not. Both Webster and Father Hardon’s Catholic Dictionary make subtle differences.

Christ IS the Redeemer of ALL humanity. BUT this is not to say that in the SAME sense He is the Savior. YES all salvation does and must flow through Christ; but it is a conditional and ongoing process. While “Redemption” is a DONE DEAL.

Redemption refers to the ability for one to now conditionally [the same conditions relating to salvation], enter heaven which had been blocked because of the Original Sins of Adam and Eve. Thus the common reference to Christ as the “New Adam.”

Salvation is always a process that MUST permit God’s Judgment of our lives choices AND mans ability to use his mind, intellect and freewill which like God are Eternal Things, Spiritual realities.

Faith is an essential element of meriting salvation; BUT originates with God’s Offer of Grace; which then must be accepted and rightly applied by man; who can freely deny the case, accept only some of it or misapply it.

Eph.2: 8 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” –

In addition to Grace and true Faith; some of the salvation requirements are:

1. Christian Baptism Jn. 3:5

1. Obedience to ALL of the Commandments Mt. 19:17

2a. Obedience to the structure of authority Ordained by Christ:

Psalms 127:1 ““Unless the Lord builds the house, those who build it labor in vain. Unless the Lord watches over the city, the watchman stays awake in vain.” The key’s to heaven rest with the CC Mt. 16:15-19

Romans 13: 1-4 “Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.

Acts.20: 28 “Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God [SINGULAR] which he obtained with the blood of his own Son.”

John.10: 16 “And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd”

1. Die in the State of Grace w/o unconfessed Mortal sins 1 Jn. 5: 16-17 and Forgiveness of SINS as Christ Commands Jn.20:19-23**. ALL of us still sadly sin; even after Baptism and Faith 1 Jn. 1:8-10.

1. And acts of Charity James 2

Eph. 4: 1-7 “I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all lowliness and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is **one body [WHICH MEANS ONE CHURCH] and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, [Meaning only One set of beliefs] one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift.

THE ONE INFALLIBE RULE FOR RIGHT UNDERSTANDING OF THE BIBLE IS

NEVER-EVER, CAN, MAY, OR DOES ONE PASSAGE MAKE VOID ANOTHER, INVALIDATE IT OR OVERRIDE IT.

God Bless, pat/PJM