Things I learned from feminism I wish I'd learned from Christianity

[Sophie_Lawrence]

Slaves are less expensive and do not complain as much, obviously.

Ok then. You don’t need to get married. You don’t seem to think there is any benefit to it. By all means stay single.

 

[Sophie_Lawrence]

Having children with multiple (black) women really isn’t an example of “love” Catholics should strive for. It’s not proof he likes them other than in a utilitarian fashion.

 

[DarkLight]

Depends on how you define red pill. Every single red pill person I know of who would describe themselves as that has ZERO problems getting dates.

Most people do not think that way.

No offense, but it seems that both starshiptrooper and NonTimendum think pretty darn close to that way based on their own posts.

Really, saying one’s mom and sister-in-law are the only decent woman you’ve met? Or that you would automatically listen to a man over a woman because a woman’s probably taking credit for something a man did?

 

[AdamP88]

Exactly. A wife and husband are one flesh, united in body and spirit. They should always work together and present a united face to the world. They should mutually support each other. The man should work to provide for his wife and his family, and should lead his wife with compassion and gentleness. The wife should work to provide for her husband, and should follow him with compassion and gentleness. They should sacrifice for each other willingly, and if not happily, at least without bitterness. A wife should submit to her husband, not because of some rule or because he owns her; she should do it because she loves him and wants to support him.

It is very popular to denigrate and demean the natural relationship between man and woman as one of slavery and inhumanity. This is a direct assault on the family and on God’s holy word.

That’s prettymuch the catholic approach summed up. Though I would say the husband and wife should submit to each other when appropriate. St. Paul seems to think so too.

I really don’t think a Catholic needs to think beyond this. It’s fairly simple. Any other thing, be it feminism or red-pill philosophy is obfuscating matters and contains lies about the fundamental nature of men or women.

 

[DarkLight]

That’s prettymuch the catholic approach summed up. Though I would say the husband and wife should submit to each other when appropriate. St. Paul seems to think so too.

I really don’t think a Catholic needs to think beyond this. It’s fairly simple. Any other thing, be it feminism or red-pill philosophy is obfuscating matters and contains lies about the fundamental nature of men or women.

I should point out I’m not solely talking about roles within marriage. There’s a lot more to male/female interactions than simply marriage itself.

That said…I think the fundamental principle is that all people, men and women, deserve respect according to their human dignity. But there’s a lot of working out what that means and how that’s expressed in a sinful society. And we must not forget the Church is full of sinners too - there may be people who hold to “traditional values” that are still full of disrespect, just as modern values can be disrespectful to human dignity.

 

[Xantippe]

I should point out I’m not solely talking about roles within marriage. There’s a lot more to male/female interactions than simply marriage itself.

That said…I think the fundamental principle is that all people, men and women, deserve respect according to their human dignity. But there’s a lot of working out what that means and how that’s expressed in a sinful society. And we must not forget the Church is full of sinners too - there may be people who hold to “traditional values” that are still full of disrespect, just as modern values can be disrespectful to human dignity.

Yes.

 

[Xantippe]

Feminism created a monster, released it into the streets, and then wants to be hailed as the hero for pretending to slay the monster.

Interestingly, rates of sexual assault are WAY down in the US.

“Over the last four decades, rape has been declining. According to the National Crime Victimization Survey, the adjusted per-capita victimization rate of rape has declined from about 2.4 per 1000 people (age 12 and above) in 1980 (that is, 2.4 persons from each 1000 people 12 and older were raped during that year) to about 0.4 per 1000 people, a decline of about 85%.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_the_United_States

So, that really does not mesh well with your theory.

In addition, rates of sexual abuse of children haven fallen.

“Overall cases of child sexual abuse fell more than 60 percent from 1992 to 2010, according to David Finkelhor, a leading expert on sexual abuse who, with a colleague, Lisa Jones, has tracked the trend.”

nytimes.com/2012/06/29/us/rate-of-child-sexual-abuse-on-the-decline.html

Any theory about the US that assumes everything is getting more and more terrible and feminism is the reason needs to explain those facts.

 

[starshiptrooper]

Virginity is worth celebrating, but it is shameful to treat a woman who is not a virgin as unworthy of marriage, even though her sin may be many years ago.

So women get extra kudos for it but men cannot make a decision based on it because that would make women feel bad. This just sounds like an attempt to have your cake and eat it too.

It is even more shameful to treat a victim of rape as though she is unworthy of marriage, even though the sin was not hers.

I still have yet to see anyone here advocating that.

Women want to have a feminist world of hyper-sexualized, no-boundaries, “free-love” and then they get mad when the wrong type of man plays that game. They like dangerous boys and then they expect men to save them when the dangerous boy does dangerous things. They complain about consent and pushy men, but then they drop a man like a rock because he’s not assertive. Women dress immodestly and act immodestly and then pretend like the way they are treated doesn’t have anything to do with it.

Amen. :clapping:

–Playboy Magazine (which is one of the early data-points for “hypersexualized” US culture) was launched in ultra-wholesome 1953. The Feminine Mystique was published in 1963. If we wanted to talk about causality, you could make a much better case that hypersexuality caused feminism, rather than the other way around.

Pornography has been present in almost every culture. You can even find shards of ancient Greek pottery depicting various sexual acts. I do not buy your explanation at all.

Ok then. You don’t need to get married. You don’t seem to think there is any benefit to it. By all means stay single.

I do not think there is any benefit to signing a civil contract. I have no issue with monogamy.

No offense, but it seems that both starshiptrooper and NonTimendum think pretty darn close to that way based on their own posts.

No my position is far simpler. If you are unhappy with something I am doing, the door is always open.

 

[DarkLight]

So women get extra kudos for it but men cannot make a decision based on it because that would make women feel bad. This just sounds like an attempt to have your cake and eat it too.

Actually I think we undervalue chastity in men while overvaluing virginity in women. Both men and women are called to be chaste. That said, we are also called to offer forgiveness to those who are repentant (again, this applies equally to men and women).

This is something I think each individual would have to work out for themselves, but I think it is preferable to be able to marry someone who you know is committed to chastity, rather than someone who is simply a virgin.

Pornography has been present in almost every culture. You can even find shards of ancient Greek pottery depicting various sexual acts. I do not buy your explanation at all.

If nothing else, it shows feminism certainly didn’t cause pornography!

No my position is far simpler. If you are unhappy with something I am doing, the door is always open.

Care to describe your position in a few words? Because you seem awfully close to “all women are manipulative and want to have babies with the bad boy while marrying the secure man for support.”

That’s not really any better than “all men are out-of-control sex addicts.”

 

[Xantippe]

I see that you didn’t answer my question, what is the difference between a wife and a slave?

About what you wrote–the fundamental problem is that almost nobody says “I am blue pill.” The reason for that is that blue pill ideas (as described by red pill people) are a total straw man.

If a person reads actual mainstream marriage advice like Boundaries in Marriage, it’s not one-sided. Likewise, the book How Not to Hate Your Husband After Kids is not one-sided. There’s a bit in that book where the marriage counselor (a really hard core guy) tells her that every time she is getting ready to rip into her husband, to go to her room, look at her photo of her child and tell the photo, “I know that what I’m about to do is going to cause you harm, but right now, my anger is more important to me than you are.” OW!

I think you can (especially in the lighter pop culture) come across stuff that might come across as blue pill, but when you are in the nitty gritty world of actual marriage advice, things are much more even-handed.

As I was pointing out much earlier in this thread, there are more options than:

Red Pill: man always gets his way, can do no wrong, woman needs no boundaries
Blue Pill: woman always gets her way, can do no wrong, man needs no boundaries

What I believe is that either can be in the wrong and both need boundaries. I don’t think “blue pill” covers that at all.

I think there’s a basic problem here in that you are treating this as a binary (with only two possible options), whereas there are many options. A lot of those are going to be bad options, but it’s possible for bad options to be different and distinct. For example, a flood is different from a house fire is different from a bedbug infestation.

If you’re asking that question (which is a complex question fallacy, BTW), your either getting your information from postmodernists who want to destroy the nuclear family point blank and I’d be surprised that they’d even talk to you since they now regard even liberal atheists who don’t tow the SJW line as Nazis…OR you’re reading blogs about a sorry subset of people (who I really could not believe are red-pilled if all they do is whine and moan on-line) who just like the sad nice guys think pity and self-loathing and suicide black mail are the way to a woman’s heart, in which case it doesn’t matter what he thinks he is, he’s not getting a real date.

That’s because people always talk over each on this. I’ll take the Catholic approach. But the red-pill notions are useful because they fundamentally reject radical feminism and postmodernism.

Really, to be a blue-pill by stretch of the imagination means not even talking to us because you’re feeding Nazi trolls by their standards.

I think anyone who thinks being a blue pill is a good idea needs to look into this deeper and understand who those folks really are and what their goals are. It’s not pretty and basically involves the destruction of the Catholic Church and the nuclear family. There’s no way they get what they want without that. :nope:

Red pill, on the other hand, is very broad and very much is in favour of women consenting. There is no endorsement of manipulating or hurting women. In fact if you’re really concerned about that, ask the blue-pillers about FGM or hijabs (not really against, just for their line of reasoning) or even other cultures. See what their priorities are------that is if they don’t call you a white supremacist first.

 

[starshiptrooper]

Interestingly, rates of sexual assault are WAY down in the US.

“Over the last four decades, rape has been declining. According to the National Crime Victimization Survey, the adjusted per-capita victimization rate of rape has declined from about 2.4 per 1000 people (age 12 and above) in 1980 (that is, 2.4 persons from each 1000 people 12 and older were raped during that year) to about 0.4 per 1000 people, a decline of about 85%.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_the_United_States

So, that really does not mesh well with your theory.

In addition, rates of sexual abuse of children haven fallen.

“Overall cases of child sexual abuse fell more than 60 percent from 1992 to 2010, according to David Finkelhor, a leading expert on sexual abuse who, with a colleague, Lisa Jones, has tracked the trend.”

nytimes.com/2012/06/29/us/rate-of-child-sexual-abuse-on-the-decline.html

Any theory about the US that assumes everything is getting more and more terrible and feminism is the reason needs to explain those facts.

What does that have to do with feminism? Usually feminists are the ones hawking the notion that we have a “rape culture” in the West. They do this while flooding our countries with people that come from actual rape cultures, so it is clearly just a power play.

Actually I think we undervalue chastity in men while overvaluing virginity in women. Both men and women are called to be chaste. That said, we are also called to offer forgiveness to those who are repentant (again, this applies equally to men and women).

This is something I think each individual would have to work out for themselves, but I think it is preferable to be able to marry someone who you know is committed to chastity, rather than someone who is simply a virgin.

You are free to have your opinion and I am free to have mine

If nothing else, it shows feminism certainly didn’t cause pornography!

Xantippe was trying to blame Playboy for the rise of feminism. It makes no sense, as I just pointed out.

Care to describe your position in a few words? Because you seem awfully close to “all women are manipulative and want to have babies with the bad boy while marrying the secure man for support.”

That’s not really any better than “all men are out-of-control sex addicts.”

That reply was given in the context of several posts about whether or not women’s needs and how anyone not bluepilled is selfish.

 

[DarkLight]

That reply was given in the context of several posts about whether or not women’s needs and how anyone not bluepilled is selfish.

As Xantippe pointed out…no one uses the term “bluepill” except redpillers. No one uses it as a self-descriptor. What we’re pointing out is that a lot of the redpill, according to posters here, comes down to “ME and making sure MY needs are met and I’m going to leave a relationship if it’s not doing what I want.” The objection people have is you end up in a situation where men’s needs are important, but women’s needs don’t matter.

Hence the question - what is the difference between a wife and a slave?

 

[starshiptrooper]

As Xantippe pointed out…no one uses the term “bluepill” except redpillers. No one uses it as a self-descriptor.

Of course not, who would admit that they are unaware of the truth? Incidentally, very few people throw the words “misogynist” and “sexist” around as often as feminists do.

What we’re pointing out is that a lot of the redpill, according to posters here, comes down to “ME and making sure MY needs are met and I’m going to leave a relationship if it’s not doing what I want.” The objection people have is you end up in a situation where men’s needs are important, but women’s needs don’t matter.

Like I said, if you do not like what I am doing, the door is always open.

Hence the question - what is the difference between a wife and a slave?

Slaves are less expensive and do not complain as much.

 

[DarkLight]

Like I said, if you do not like what I am doing, the door is always open.

Given that all we’re doing is responding to your comments on my thread on an internet forum, I’m not sure what door you’re talking about.

Slaves are less expensive and do not complain as much.

And this would be why we say y’all see women as solely there to satisfy your wants and needs. Hardly a Catholic view.

Or would you care to explain how your view respects the dignity of women as human beings?

 

[Xantippe]

Actually I think we undervalue chastity in men while overvaluing virginity in women. Both men and women are called to be chaste. That said, we are also called to offer forgiveness to those who are repentant (again, this applies equally to men and women).

This is something I think each individual would have to work out for themselves, but I think it is preferable to be able to marry someone who you know is committed to chastity, rather than someone who is simply a virgin.

If nothing else, it shows feminism certainly didn’t cause pornography!

Care to describe your position in a few words? Because you seem awfully close to “all women are manipulative and want to have babies with the bad boy while marrying the secure man for support.”

That’s not really any better than “all men are out-of-control sex addicts.”

–Yes to undervaluing virginity in men and overvaluing it in women (at least relatively speaking).
–I feel like SST’s monogamy-but-no-civil-marriage plan doesn’t work well with his virginity-for-women plan. I think the monogamy-but-no-civil-marriage plan would (in practice) wind up looking like typical bottom-50% life in the US–lots of children out of wedlock, a lot of volatility in the romantic lives of parents, lots of kids living with an ever-changing cast of step-parents and step-siblings, lots of poverty, lots of government dependence, lots of chaos, etc. I’ll pass.
–Believe it or not, there are people who don’t live like that.
–That’s a very interesting point about the existence of pornography in other cultures demonstrating that feminism did not cause pornography. It is worth remembering that not all bad things are modern bad things.
–I think “all women are manipulative and want to have babies with the bad boy while marrying the secure man for support” is actually consistent with “all men are out-of-control sex addicts.”

 

[Xantippe]

What does that have to do with feminism? Usually feminists are the ones hawking the notion that we have a “rape culture” in the West. They do this while flooding our countries with people that come from actual rape cultures, so it is clearly just a power play.

[snip]

Xantippe was trying to blame Playboy for the rise of feminism. It makes no sense, as I just pointed out.

About the falling rape stats–isn’t it preferable to have some empirical background? It helps not to have a completely false picture of reality when trying to come up with theories about where we are and how we got there.

I was pointing out that the decline in rape in the US undermines the theory that feminism created a rape-y hypersexualized culture. As US society has gotten more feminist, sexual assault has gotten less prevalent.



About the Playboy, NonTimendum had been blaming feminism for hypersexuality. I was pointing out that Playboy precedes a lot of landmarks in the history of post-War feminism.

Your remark about pornography in other times and cultures makes the point even better. If there is and has been pornography in non-feminist cultures and societies, that demonstrates that we cannot pin pornography on feminists.

 

[Xantippe]

DarkLight asked Starshiptrooper:

Or would you care to explain how your view respects the dignity of women as human beings?

Yes.

 

[starshiptrooper]

Given that all we’re doing is responding to your comments on my thread on an internet forum, I’m not sure what door you’re talking about.

We were just having a discussion about filling other people’s needs. My position is that if someone is unhappy and feels like I am not meeting their needs, they are free to look for a better situation elsewhere.

And this would be why we say y’all see women as solely there to satisfy your wants and needs. Hardly a Catholic view.

Or would you care to explain how your view respects the dignity of women as human beings?

I am not going to give a serious answer to a loaded question ever.

 

[DarkLight]

We were just having a discussion about filling other people’s needs. My position is that if someone is unhappy and feels like I am not meeting their needs, they are free to look for a better situation elsewhere.

And if those needs happen to involve, say, getting alimony and child support because she’s been a stay at home parent…?

 

[starshiptrooper]

And if those needs happen to involve, say, getting alimony and child support because she’s been a stay at home parent…?

Already addressed with a private contract written with the advice of a quality lawyer.