Things I learned from feminism I wish I'd learned from Christianity

[Xantippe]

Maybe not but if it’s the only or main source about how sex works then that might be their expectation. One documentary I watched revealed that the most viewed videos tend to include rough and violent acts towards the women and when asked men said that the women involved were totally into it, no clue that the women might be trafficked or told how to act.

It is a big problem that porn is probably the primary source of sex education for young men today.

 

[DarkLight]

Yes!

There’s a very sensible book entitled “How Far Can we Go?: A Catholic Guide to Sex and Dating” that I recommend having a good skim of. I haven’t read the whole thing, but the initial chapters are very sensible and practical. They make some excellent points about pacing and how 14-year-olds ought to get different chastity advice than 20-something engaged professionals, which a lot of people forget.

You have no idea how much this made me laugh!

That was one big problem with evangelical chastity teaching. Most of the dating advice seemed to be aimed at teenagers. I’m almost 30 now, there is no way I am going out with a chaperone or on group dates - to be quite honest I’m old enough to be the chaperone.

 

[Xantippe]

You have no idea how much this made me laugh!

That was one big problem with evangelical chastity teaching. Most of the dating advice seemed to be aimed at teenagers. I’m almost 30 now, there is no way I am going out with a chaperone or on group dates - to be quite honest I’m old enough to be the chaperone.

You just happen to have 10 people to go out with whenever you want to see your sweetie. Riiiight?

That book makes the point that if we focus just on how far and make it the same for everybody, a pair of 14-year-olds are going to wind up hitting the ceiling on appropriate physical intimacy within a matter of weeks, and then what? Just tread water for the next 8 years? Lots of luck with that.

Meanwhile, it’s not as big a deal for a 25-year-old couple with jobs and a wedding date a few months away.

(My future husband and I had a very successful 99.44% pure courtship thanks to being of marriageable age and having a finish line within view. It helps A LOT.)

 

[starshiptrooper]

Considering what porn does to the mind – Yes, I am concerned that some will “act” out what they see in porn.

No argument here. Porn is definitely not part of a man’s healthy sex life.

I’m not really sure you’re interested in discussing lifelong functional marriages so much as the worst animal behavior theoretically possible.

That is the nature of cynicism. I would have stayed well away since there was nothing interesting here, until my ideas were mentioned by someone else.

…and that’s a really bad idea for everybody.

I realize there’s a Hollywood model where nobody talks but stuff just happens magically perfectly without the exchange of any words as the music swells–but good marital sex is often much chattier, or is the product of a lot of previous conversations. (I do not know this for a fact, but I keep hearing that that Hollywood no-talk model is found in an even more extreme form in pornography.)

Who said we were talking about marital sex? Sure if you happen to have a LTR, a conversation about sex is inevitable. You and I both know that plenty of extramarital sex happens. Besides, while I am not a voyeur, I am willing to bet that most sex is had between people who simply escalate their behavior unless someone says, “Stop!”

The thing is, if we don’t talk to each other–how do we learn anything or get better?

And that’s another thing one can learn from feminists.

Now why would I want to learn from a bunch of people who hate my guts and think I am the enemy just for being a man?

(By the way, I have to mention that manosphere guys often have BIZARRE ideas about how female sexuality works.)

I do not care how bizarre something appears to be. I just want to know if it works.

 

[edwest2]

Thinking consent is important doesn’t make you a radical feminist any more than liking nice roads makes you a Nazi.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichsautobahn

The Nazi card certainly doesn’t help.

Ed

 

[Xantippe]

The Nazi card certainly doesn’t help.

Ed

How about “Having a mustache doesn’t make you Stalin”?

Better?

 

[Xantippe]

Who said we were talking about marital sex? Sure if you happen to have a LTR, a conversation about sex is inevitable. You and I both know that plenty of extramarital sex happens. Besides, while I am not a voyeur, I am willing to bet that most sex is had between people who simply escalate their behavior unless someone says, “Stop!”

That’s even more problematic for people who don’t know each other really well.

I kind of get how long-married people could manage more or less like that, given lots of experience with each other, but otherwise, it sounds like a recipe for disaster.

Let’s say, for example, that somebody is showing me how to do some sort of complicated technical procedure (let’s say disarming a bomb), and instead of telling me stuff like:

“Yes, that’s right. Keep doing that. A little right. A little further right. Yep!”

they instead choose to just let me keep bumbling around without guidance until I am in imminent danger of detonating the bomb.

 

[edwest2]

I lived through the Feminism of the Women’s Liberation Movement of the 1970s and beyond. Men were called pigs - male chauvenist pigs. A chauvenist is someone who thinks he can push women around. But the core of mainstream Feminism boils down to this: “Forget your family, Forget your parents.” And total strangers will reteach you - their way. Like you, no one in particular, are too stupid to think for yourself. Men were the enemies class. Women, the eternal victims class. Here were your orders:

You, not the man, are in charge.
You, not the man, decide who you have sex with.
Pro-Abortion 100%.
Pro-Contraception 100%.
Have sex and it’s a one time thing, or you cohabitate until you don’t want to anymore or one of you leaves.
Have lots of sex. Never mind the STDs.
Housewife? That’s slavery to a man. Get a career! Get power!! Kick out those men and show them you can be just as sleazy and vile and perverted as they are. After all, it’s your turn now.
Consent? Like two dogs meeting in an alley and relieving themselves.

You, meaning no one in particular, were lied to. Period. And Fathers? Who needs fathers? Certainly not your kids who might be corrupted by their patriarchal, male-dominated nonsense, which you are committed to overthrowing. “Sisters! (not really, but it captures the intent) Throw off the chains of your oppression!!”

I pick up the newspaper a few weeks ago and on page one of one section, I find out about the “male dominated” meat cutting industry! Yeah, like I want to cut up animal carcasses 40 hours a week.

And what is this junk about Protestants? This is a Catholic forum and I was raised Catholic. Around here, Protestant is used like some airborne disease you can catch. I know next to nothing about Protestants. The basics, but that’s it.

So, let’s get back to reality. Time-tested reality as opposed to invented reality. First, men:

Respect women.
Get to really know them on a casual basis first.
If she, Catholic or non-Catholic Christian, holds significantly different views than you, then there really is nothing to continue with.
A pretty or beautiful woman does not need any or much makeup. Speaking as an artist, if the facial structure is not there, makeup will not correct anything. But don’t forget about the self-imposed dictators of the fashion world. Every magazine she picks up, every TV ad she sees and even other women, will influence her choices regarding makeup.
Clothes. I’ve known model beautiful women, and yes, even if you have a very curvy figure, I have seen clothing choices that balance modesty with what God gave you. It is a sign of self-respect as well.
Hold doors open for women.
I’ve been told no by a few potential dates and was not offended. I was always told there are other girls out there.
In another case, a very attractive Eastern European girl liked me but I could tell her mother didn’t. I respected that.
And fathers. If a father told me to bring her home at a certain time, it was “Yes, sir.”

But the current form of feminism hates traditional families. I’ve read about it a lot. Women and men don’t need each other. In fact, there’s not even a species relationship. Feminist icon, Gloria Steinem, “A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle.” [except for sex but that’s implied]

cont.

 

[Xantippe]

And what is this junk about Protestants? This is a Catholic forum and I was raised Catholic. Around here, Protestant is used like some airborne disease you can catch. I know next to nothing about Protestants. The basics, but that’s it.

Well, it’s a Protestant country, a lot of us live in heavily Protestant areas, and a number of us (like myself and DarkLight) grew up in Protestant families.

Hence, like it or not, it matters what Protestants are thinking and saying.

 

[starshiptrooper]

That’s even more problematic for people who don’t know each other really well.

A problem that was drastically aggravated by feminism in the 60’s and 70’s.

…But the current form of feminism hates traditional families. I’ve read about it a lot. Women and men don’t need each other. In fact, there’s not even a species relationship. Feminist icon, Gloria Steinem, “A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle.” [except for sex but that’s implied

Remember that the bicycles have no need for the fish either.
[/QUOTE]

 

[edwest2]

Women. You have the ability to bear children, whether you do or not, or some medical issue prevents it.
You are a person and love and companionship are good things.
Choose your men based on their thoughts and behaviors. In one case, me and a young lady I liked took our own cars and had our first date at a casual restaurant. We liked each other. After a few of those, she asked me to pick her up.
Someone you can really talk to means a lot. When I find someone who is on the same page as me, a closeness develops.
If you find you enjoy each others company no matter what you’re doing, that’s wonderful.
Be honest, to the degree you want to. And, as I found out, as the relationship matures, we can be more open and compassionate toward one another.

A one-night stand or cohabitation won’t help you or the guy.

Lastly, be realistic. I’ve known women who thought marriage would change everything, especially in a material way. 'I’ll get things. I’ll have this new, exciting life. I’ll be able to live the kind of life I’ve dreamed of." Now, if the guy’s not making enough to afford all that - it’s just not practical.

And fathers. Fathers are missing in too many children’s lives today. Both of you should take it a step at a time. If both are willing, let it take all the time it needs. And families, we need stable families where the man and woman are partners, not one hair-trigger away from filing for divorce. A friend of mine who married a real beauty, but who understood what practical meant, told me: “Marriage is hard.” The quick and easy may seem better but in the end, it’s not. Not really.

When most of the words and images you see give you step by step instructions about cohabitation or one-night stands, it can cloud your judgement. Doing it the way God intended is not easy but it is better. Getting a divorce (I’m not referring to abuse) may seem easier than working on your relationship but is it?

I’m a guy who is lucky to have some male friends and even that can be hard to deal with. Misunderstandings, arguments and so on are a strain. But learning to work it out is better. Being there for each other is better. Being willing to say “I’m sorry” is better.

Lots and lots of pleasure does not mean no consequences like on TV.

amazon.com/Extreme-Makeover-Transformed-Conformed-Culture/dp/1586175610

Ed

 

[edwest2]

Well, it’s a Protestant country, a lot of us live in heavily Protestant areas, and a number of us (like myself and DarkLight) grew up in Protestant families.

Hence, like it or not, it matters what Protestants are thinking and saying.

I didn’t say it didn’t matter but I’m seeing way too much, “Catholics must have gotten this or that idea from Protestants.” I’m not trying to offend Protestants but just pointing out that the Protestant ‘infection’ theory is brought up here in a negative way.

Ed

 

[DarkLight]

As far as feminism goes…well, my mother told me stories. She told me, for example, about dealing with a professor who accused every female student in his class of cheating. Why? Because it was a graduate-level math class, and he just didn’t believe that a woman could be that good at math! So of course every woman in his class was guilty until proven innocent.

My grandmother, my biological grandmother, was abused and beaten by her husband. In those days no-fault divorce wasn’t an option, and many judges were reluctant to grant divorce (“domestic violence” wasn’t really a recognized thing either). So she lived with it until she died and my grandfather had her buried in an unmarked grave and refused to reveal the location to anyone.

And that’s not even getting into my own experiences…I have some fun ones.

So I can kind of understand where a lot of feminism is coming from. Do I agree with everything it teaches? No. (I also don’t think everything listed in this thread is a tenet of mainstream feminism, although I admit the casual sex and abortion are.) But there’s a lot of real benefits that feminists fought for for a reason, and there’s a lot of things many of us modern women suffered from growing up because no one wanted to talk to us about “feminist” concepts.

 

[Walking_Home]

Pope Francis on women’s emancipation:

POST-SYNODAL APOSTOLIC EXHORTATION AMORIS LÆTITIA
OF THE HOLY, FATHER FRANCIS
TO BISHOPS, PRIESTS AND DEACONS
CONSECRATED PERSONS
CHRISTIAN MARRIED COUPLES
AND ALL THE LAY FAITHFUL

ON LOVE IN THE FAMILY

N54…

There are those who believe that many of today’s
problems have arisen because of feminine emancipation.
This argument, however, is not valid,
“it is false, untrue, a form of male chauvinism”.
The equal dignity of men and women makes us
rejoice to see old forms of discrimination disappear,
and within families there is a growing
reciprocity. If certain forms of feminism have
arisen which we must consider inadequate, ** we
must nonetheless see in the women’s movement
the working of the Spirit for a clearer recognition
of the dignity and rights of women.**

 

[edwest2]

As far as feminism goes…well, my mother told me stories. She told me, for example, about dealing with a professor who accused every female student in his class of cheating. Why? Because it was a graduate-level math class, and he just didn’t believe that a woman could be that good at math! So of course every woman in his class was guilty until proven innocent.

My grandmother, my biological grandmother, was abused and beaten by her husband. In those days no-fault divorce wasn’t an option, and many judges were reluctant to grant divorce (“domestic violence” wasn’t really a recognized thing either). So she lived with it until she died and my grandfather had her buried in an unmarked grave and refused to reveal the location to anyone.

And that’s not even getting into my own experiences…I have some fun ones.

So I can kind of understand where a lot of feminism is coming from. Do I agree with everything it teaches? No. (I also don’t think everything listed in this thread is a tenet of mainstream feminism, although I admit the casual sex and abortion are.) But there’s a lot of real benefits that feminists fought for for a reason, and there’s a lot of things many of us modern women suffered from growing up because no one wanted to talk to us about “feminist” concepts.

Solving problems between men and women is a good thing but as a man, I am now guilty. Period. And as a White Man — that’s even worse. I’m automatically the enemy because I am part of the proletariat, I mean patriarchy that needs to be overthrown so women can rule. I’m being accused of everything because men are just evil.

The National Organization for Women was and is not solution oriented. It can’t be. The war needs ongoing conflict. To end it means no more protests and yelling and screaming.

How many women in the 1970s were protesting outside of Adult Bookstores as their sisters were exploited like never before? Or outside of “gentlemen’s clubs” where their sisters were being used as sex objects for men to look at? Topless bars? Porn theaters?

Cooperation good. Solving problems good. But what could possibly be more important than overthrowing the Patriarchy - Men with Power? For example, I was reading an article where the head of my state’s women’s organization complained that after all these years, women were not in charge of most businesses. That didn’t say “equality.”

Ed

 

[Xantippe]

Ed,

It’s really not that hard to find feminists that hate porn.

Just to scratch the surface, there’s a Wikipedia article entitled “Feminist views on pornography.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_views_on_pornography

From the first paragraph, “Feminist views on pornography range from condemnation of pornography as a form of violence against women, to an embracing of some forms of pornography[which?] as a medium of feminist expression. Feminist debate on this issue reflects larger concerns surrounding feminist views on sexuality, and is closely related to feminist debates on prostitution, BDSM, and other issues. Pornography has been one of the most divisive issues in feminism, particularly among feminists in anglophone countries. This deep division between feminists was exemplified in the feminist sex wars of the 1980s, which pitted anti-pornography feminism against sex-positive feminism.”

 

[edwest2]

Ed,

It’s really not that hard to find feminists that hate porn.

Just to scratch the surface, there’s a Wikipedia article entitled “Feminist views on pornography.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_views_on_pornography

From the first paragraph, “Feminist views on pornography range from condemnation of pornography as a form of violence against women, to an embracing of some forms of pornography[which?] as a medium of feminist expression. Feminist debate on this issue reflects larger concerns surrounding feminist views on sexuality, and is closely related to feminist debates on prostitution, BDSM, and other issues. Pornography has been one of the most divisive issues in feminism, particularly among feminists in anglophone countries. This deep division between feminists was exemplified in the feminist sex wars of the 1980s, which pitted anti-pornography feminism against sex-positive feminism.”

Thanks. But what about now? There are still strip clubs out there. I know of one Christian church that respectfully protests outside of one, but that’s it.

Ed

 

[edwest2]

"2. Recent years have seen new approaches to women’s issues. A first tendency is to emphasize strongly conditions of subordination in order to give rise to antagonism: women, in order to be themselves, must make themselves the adversaries of men. Faced with the abuse of power, the answer for women is to seek power. This process leads to opposition between men and women, in which the identity and role of one are emphasized to the disadvantage of the other, leading to harmful confusion regarding the human person, which has its most immediate and lethal effects in the structure of the family.

"A second tendency emerges in the wake of the first. In order to avoid the domination of one sex or the other, their differences tend to be denied, viewed as mere effects of historical and cultural conditioning. In this perspective, physical difference, termed sex, is minimized, while the purely cultural element, termed gender, is emphasized to the maximum and held to be primary. The obscuring of the difference or duality of the sexes has enormous consequences on a variety of levels. This theory of the human person, intended to promote prospects for equality of women through liberation from biological determinism, has in reality inspired ideologies which, for example, call into question the family, in its natural two-parent structure of mother and father, and make homosexuality and heterosexuality virtually equivalent, in a new model of polymorphous sexuality.

"3. While the immediate roots of this second tendency are found in the context of reflection on women’s roles, its deeper motivation must be sought in the human attempt to be freed from one’s biological conditioning.2 According to this perspective, human nature in itself does not possess characteristics in an absolute manner: all persons can and ought to constitute themselves as they like, since they are free from every predetermination linked to their essential constitution.

"This perspective has many consequences. Above all it strengthens the idea that the liberation of women entails criticism of Sacred Scripture, which would be seen as handing on a patriarchal conception of God nourished by an essentially male-dominated culture. Second, this tendency would consider as lacking in importance and relevance the fact that the Son of God assumed human nature in its male form.

“4. In the face of these currents of thought, the Church, enlightened by faith in Jesus Christ, speaks instead of active collaboration between the sexes precisely in the recognition of the difference between man and woman.”

Full document: vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20040731_collaboration_en.html

Ed

 

[Walking_Home]

Solving problems between men and women is a good thing but as a man, I am now guilty. Period. And as a White Man — that’s even worse. I’m automatically the enemy because I am part of the proletariat, I mean patriarchy that needs to be overthrown so women can rule. I’m being accused of everything because men are just evil.

The National Organization for Women was and is not solution oriented. It can’t be. The war needs ongoing conflict. To end it means no more protests and yelling and screaming.

How many women in the 1970s were protesting outside of Adult Bookstores as their sisters were exploited like never before? Or outside of “gentlemen’s clubs” where their sisters were being used as sex objects for men to look at? Topless bars? Porn theaters?

Cooperation good. Solving problems good. But what could possibly be more important than overthrowing the Patriarchy - Men with Power? For example, I was reading an article where the head of my state’s women’s organization complained that after all these years, women were not in charge of most businesses. That didn’t say “equality.”

Ed

---

Were you protesting outside the bookstores and the clubs Ed?

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Thanks. But what about now? There are still strip clubs out there. I know of one Christian church that respectfully protests outside of one, but that’s it.

Ed

You’re complaining that feminists don’t stop men from going to strip clubs?

You’ll find feminists for those establishments and feminists against them. Personally, I believe in MYOB. If they violate your conscience, don’t go. But don’t complain that another diverse group of people dedicated to the betterment of women isn’t controlling your behavior for you.

Why weren’t feminists protesting strip clubs in the 1970’s? Because back then, raping your wife wasn’t a crime. My mom was told that as a divorced woman, she couldn’t buy car insurance. Overt discrimination in many arenas was totally legal. In short, feminists had bigger fish to fry than a few women (by and large) choosing to be strippers and men choosing to enjoy them.