Things I learned from feminism I wish I'd learned from Christianity

  • Thread starter Thread starter DarkLight
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
That’s awful! I shouldn’t be surprised though; when my husband (then fiance) had cancer, we met a lot of other cancer patients and families. Spousal abandonment was sadly very common. I guess if people are quick to leave a sick spouse, why would a child be any different?
Same sadly with having a disabled child. My friend told me it’s not uncommon for marriages to end with a disabled child that needs a lot of care. She said (and I have not stats to back this up or a link) Usually the man leaves sadly.

Just what a friend that has worked 25 years with disabled children and their families.

Mary.
 
Decent married fathers (like decent married mothers) have a lot of responsibilities at home. A typical middle class family with children will have little kids (who can be very tiring to deal with at home at bedtime) and/or big kids (who often have complicated evening schedules of their own). In neither case are parents free to flit about in the evening socializing with their friends. It’s just normal to check in with your spouse and make sure that you can go out and that there’s not some sort of scheduling conflict. Also, there’s the issue of whether or not the couple has been investing enough in their relationship. If your guy friend goes out once a month with his poker friends and his wife goes out with her friends every month, but they haven’t gone out together as a couple in years (which does happen to parents)–that is a problem. There needs to be some sort of proportionality between family fun, parent friend fun, and couple fun, not to mention some sort of equity between the parents in the amount of free time that they each get.
As I recall, we had a thread not too long ago about a woman who was a stay-at-home parent to multiple small children, but whose husband refused to ever watch the children or to allow the wife to spend any money on a sitter. And expecting her to have dinner fixed and the house cleaned. So she was essentially working 7 days a week from when the kids got up to when they went to bed.
 
QUOTE=starshiptrooper;14740906]She knows she is replaceable. If she does not like it, the door is always an option.Birth control is not just something for the for sexually liberated woman and soon there will be a middle ground for men between condoms and vasectomies. The effects of this will be interesting. The upcoming changes will be another sexual revolution.She can blame other women for putting out without a promise of security. It works for women as long as men still play by the old set of rules while accommodating women. What happens when Atlas shrugs though?That we can agree on.You are a feminist and I trust those just about as far as I can throw them (which is not very far given the rise of fat acceptance). They talk a good game but when it comes to specifics, they are invariably a group of power-hungry, misandrists who are utterly opposed to male interests.

–As a single gal (even as a very average-looking single gal), I would never have stuck around a guy who treated me as replaceable. That’s just not very appealing to a person with a normal amount of self-esteem. Would you stick around a woman who treated **you **as easily replaceable?
–If either party is easily replaceable, it suggests that there’s nothing very special about the relationship–so why stick around?
–By the way, I was just looking up the synopsis for the last 50 Shades of Grey book and MY OH MY. A few snips from this wiki:
fiftyshadesofgrey.wikia.com/wiki/Fifty_Shades_Freed_(book
“Ana and Christian get married and go on a honeymoon in Europe.” “Ana learns that she is pregnant” “At the hospital, Christian is upset with Ana for endangering both her and their baby’s life, but apologizes for walking out on her. Most of Ana’s family and friends are upset with her recklessness because she has the baby to worry about.” “In the Epilogue, Anastasia and Christian have a son named Theodore and are expecting their second child, a daughter they plan to name Phoebe.” AWWWW.
–Do you notice that based on that synopsis, that it actually gets pretty darn Hallmark movie-esque and Christian goes full Beta toward the end of the series? So, the appeal of the series is not necessarily all floggings and stalking.
–I think you’re going to keep waiting for a long time for Atlas to shrug. Middle class people keep on marrying and having kids. Here are some interesting demographic facts about childbearing in the US:
thepracticalconservative.wordpress.com/2017/06/19/more-college-mom-ruminations/
–Thanks to overuse by the manosphere, the term “feminist” has lost a lot of its sting. It’s kind of like how liberals have taken the sting out of “racist” by wearing it out as a term. Sure, I’m feminist. So what? At this point, we’re all clear that in manosphere terms “feminist,” means a woman with a sense of self-respect who doesn’t want to spend all her free time self-flagellating for having the vote and kissing the booboos of various miserable incels. Virtually anything I could do with my time would be more dignified and reasonable as a pastime.
 
You are a feminist and I trust those just about as far as I can throw them (which is not very far given the rise of fat acceptance). They talk a good game but when it comes to specifics, they are invariably a group of power-hungry, misandrists who are utterly opposed to male interests.
On reflection, there is a reason why you should trust “feminists.”

Let’s say that there are two different types of woman:

A says, “I don’t have any needs and I don’t have any boundaries. I can do **anything **for you that you want, as long as you want me to do it. I don’t ever need you to do anything for me.”

B says, “I have needs and I have boundaries. There are some things I can do for you, but not others, and there are some things that I will need you to help me with.”

Consider for a moment, which of those two women is most likely being truthful and accurate?

As with Cordelia in King Lear, the most truthful person is rarely the person who is telling us exactly what we want to hear.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cordelia_(King_Lear
 
–As a single gal (even as a very average-looking single gal), I would never have stuck around a guy who treated me as replaceable. That’s just not very appealing to a person with a normal amount of self-esteem. Would you stick around a woman who treated **you **as easily replaceable?
That is a sign that I have to git gud, to use a gamer’s term.
–If either party is easily replaceable, it suggests that there’s nothing very special about the relationship–so why stick around?
Simple cost benefit analysis says that my buddy is coming out ahead.
–By the way, I was just looking up the synopsis for the last 50 Shades of Grey book and MY OH MY. A few snips from this wiki:
–Do you notice that based on that synopsis, that it actually gets pretty darn Hallmark movie-esque and Christian goes full Beta toward the end of the series? So, the appeal of the series is not necessarily all floggings and stalking.
Ah yes, the bad boy who meets a special woman who turns him good and then somehow does not lose any attraction despite the complete 180 degree change. Why it is a tale as old as time! You will note that the story is not about Christian, the boring beta bucks billionaire who buys her flowers and treats her like a perfect lady.
–I think you’re going to keep waiting for a long time for Atlas to shrug. Middle class people keep on marrying and having kids. Here are some interesting demographic facts about childbearing in the US:
None of that affects my assessment.
–Thanks to overuse by the manosphere, the term “feminist” has lost a lot of its sting. It’s kind of like how liberals have taken the sting out of “racist” by wearing it out as a term. Sure, I’m feminist. So what? At this point, we’re all clear that in manosphere terms “feminist,” means a woman with a sense of self-respect who doesn’t want to spend all her free time self-flagellating for having the vote and kissing the booboos of various miserable incels. Virtually anything I could do with my time would be more dignified and reasonable as a pastime.
First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.
 
The more you go on the more I think you just suffer from the same fear of commitment that many modern men suffer from. But dressed up in this red pill facade.

It’d be more intellectually honest to just say you want to play the field and that marriage doesn’t appeal to you.
Well said. No one is putting a gun to your head for marriage and you aren’t the first guy that wants to play the field etc. Nothing really too unique about it.

Mary.
 
That is a sign that I have to git gud, to use a gamer’s term.Simple cost benefit analysis says that my buddy is coming out ahead.Ah yes, the bad boy who meets a special woman who turns him good and then somehow does not lose any attraction despite the complete 180 degree change. Why it is a tale as old as time! You will note that the story is not about Christian, the boring beta bucks billionaire who buys her flowers and treats her like a perfect lady.None of that affects my assessment.First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.
Your buddy has no children, no hope of them, and it is unclear that he has money set aside in the seven figures for old age to compensate. Perhaps he does.

He also has no protection against being “that old guy” when his “market value” declines.

Nobody is fighting you, you’re just behaving as though rakes are new in the world.

Just like being divorced is not status-boosting for women, being over college-age and having “just a girlfriend” is not impressive even to other men for men.
 
Your buddy has no children, no hope of them, and it is unclear that he has money set aside in the seven figures for old age to compensate. Perhaps he does.
Although I’d like to point out that, given the likely facts, he might be a little more likely to end up with a kid than he thinks.

Of course, in this situation, he’s also likely to have his kid aborted.
 
I really think this whole ‘redpill’ internet phenomenon grows out of guys who were the semi-awkward, semi-nerdy “nice guys” in high school. They approach women like they approach a video game cheat code. Just enter the right combination of buttons and it should work. So they press all the right buttons (at least, as explained by movies and TV) with women: they buy flowers, they write love notes, they wait around patiently while she goes out with other guys, etc.

Eventually, they erupt in frustration and go “Why isn’t she all over me?! I’ve done everything right!” So then it all becomes a grand conspiracy where women are just manipulative shrews to be conquered.

It all stems from an inability or unwillingness to see women as full-fledged, unique human beings. There isn’t some magic combination of buttons to push that will unlock the “You Have a Girlfriend” achievement. Women are just people. There’s like four billion of them. There’s a lot of diversity there.

And, to be fair to the redpill types, there is some small nugget of truth to their central argument. Women generally aren’t attracted to doormats. But there’s no need to take it to this ridiculous extreme. It’s not like your two options are “self-hating, sensitive guy in capri pants” and “scowling jerk who backhands his woman for sassing him while he’s trying to do his bicep curls.”
 
.First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.
Nah, not exactly. In the case of MGTOWers, first they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then the MGTOWers get old and diet out one by one.

What other end game do you see here?

Really, how does this work? It looks very Undepants Gnomes-ish.

Step 1. DO NOT MARRY! DO NOT HAVE CHILDREN! DO NOT HAVE A GOOD JOB!

Step 2. ???

Step 3. Profit!

What is step 2?
 
I really think this whole ‘redpill’ internet phenomenon grows out of guys who were the semi-awkward, semi-nerdy “nice guys” in high school. They approach women like they approach a video game cheat code. Just enter the right combination of buttons and it should work. So they press all the right buttons (at least, as explained by movies and TV) with women: they buy flowers, they write love notes, they wait around patiently while she goes out with other guys, etc.

Eventually, they erupt in frustration and go “Why isn’t she all over me?! I’ve done everything right!” So then it all becomes a grand conspiracy where women are just manipulative shrews to be conquered.

It all stems from an inability or unwillingness to see women as full-fledged, unique human beings. There isn’t some magic combination of buttons to push that will unlock the “You Have a Girlfriend” achievement. Women are just people. There’s like four billion of them. There’s a lot of diversity there.

And, to be fair to the redpill types, there is some small nugget of truth to their central argument. Women generally aren’t attracted to doormats. But there’s no need to take it to this ridiculous extreme. It’s not like your two options are “self-hating, sensitive guy in capri pants” and “scowling jerk who backhands his woman for sassing him while he’s trying to do his bicep curls.”
Indeed.

And there’s another nuance here–that some women will stick around for this treatment, but they’re not exactly out of the top drawer (especially the ones who stick around for a long time). And that shows up in the Red Pill ideology, too–they believe that all women are gold digging low-self esteem tramps because their practices attract gold digging low-self-esteem tramps and repel women who have more going for them.

You can kind of tell this by the fact that Pick Up technique assumes that the pick up artist is going to wind up hitting on hundreds of women for every one woman who responds positively to the techniques.
 
Your buddy has no children, no hope of them, and it is unclear that he has money set aside in the seven figures for old age to compensate. Perhaps he does.

He also has no protection against being “that old guy” when his “market value” declines.

Nobody is fighting you, you’re just behaving as though rakes are new in the world.

Just like being divorced is not status-boosting for women, being over college-age and having “just a girlfriend” is not impressive even to other men for men.
Right. Note the rarity of bachelor presidents, for example.

Contrary to Red Pill ideology, men also get physically less attractive as they get older. All things being equal, a 24-year-old guy is more attractive than a 44-year-old guy, and WAY more attractive than a 54 or 64-year-old guy. Not that he might not have other redeeming features and be a much better person and a better husband, but purely physically, it’s just not the same.

I see that there’s a 1% yearly loss in male testosterone every year over 30.

healthline.com/health/low-testosterone/testosterone-levels-by-age#adolescence3

Also, as normal people get older, they get less and less excited about the process of meeting dozens of new people in order to make friends or a romantic prospect. (There are exceptions, but middle aged men are, in fact, notorious for not liking to socialize and meet new people.) So, except for unusual social butterfly type guys, dating in middle age is often a chore. (Note how joyless middle aged Red Pill guys are about dating–they really aren’t enjoying themselves.) This all goes double for the socially awkward, and in fact may be true for them at a much younger age.

Note that Roosh V has lost his zest for doing whatever it is that he does. That’s typical of Game gurus–they eventually fall out of love with pick up, but they have to keep on keeping on because it’s their job now. The problem is, middle aged men are just TOO old to be staying up late chasing women in clubs

There’s a reason why the median age of first marriage for men in the US is 29. (And by the way, given normal courtship patterns, that implies getting engaged at 28 and having dated/lived together for 1-5 years–so that 29 year old guy has been off the market for some time, as has his 27-year-old female counterpart.)

I’d also like to agree with Dark Light. Until things change radically, it’s actually not unlikely that SST’s Red Pill role model guy is going to have a kid at some point–it’s just that he won’t be married to the mother and he won’t be living with the kid and he may never know about the kid. If he’s quite the man about town, there may have been at least one abortion that he may or may not know about. Again, it’s really only a matter of time.
 
I’d also like to agree with Dark Light. Until things change radically, it’s actually not unlikely that SST’s Red Pill role model guy is going to have a kid at some point–it’s just that he won’t be married to the mother and he won’t be living with the kid and he may never know about the kid. If he’s quite the man about town, there may have been at least one abortion that he may or may not know about. Again, it’s really only a matter of time.
Or if he’s not married to the mother, he doesn’t want to stick around for his kid (because that would impose on his needs), and he ends up being taken to court for child support.
 
Back to your main topic, up until a few years ago, I didn’t even think in terms of “needs” or think that it was kosher to talk about my needs.

SST may actually relate to this, but when I was a kid growing up in a WASP family, it was all DUTY DUTY DUTY and talking about feeeeelings or needs would have been regarded as weakness and/or dirty pool. When I was a young wife or young mother, it just never crossed my mind that I was allowed to talk about my feelings or needs (and it ticked me off when my husband talked about his). My family wasn’t extreme about this for religious reasons (thank goodness!) but for WASP/John Wayne/Clint Eastwood/being poor type reasons–if we had talked about needs, my parents would have had to come to terms with the fact that pretty basic needs were not getting met.🤷

It’s only much later (through a combination of Christian and secular sources) that I’ve realized that:

a) everybody has needs (including ultra-stoic people like myself as a kid and young adult), it’s just that some people are really bad at communicating their needs
b) there are going to be conflicts between different people’s needs
c) it makes more sense to be explicit and open about needs
d) if we aren’t explicit and open about what our needs and other people’s needs are, people are going to go about getting their needs met in covert, dishonest, unfair, dysfunctional ways.

The only hope of being equitable about conflicting needs is being open about what those needs are and how they conflict–there’s not a prayer of resolving conflicting needs at all fairly if we can’t even** talk** openly about needs at all.

(The Five Love Languages is a nice needs-oriented book.)

Here are some problems I see with needs and the Red Pill:

Red Pill guys are only willing to recognize a very narrow segment of human needs. While the needs they talk about may be real, they ignore a lot needs of both men and women. It’s not a balanced diet, which is why Red Pill guys do not come across as well-rounded human beings (they’re oddly overdeveloped in certain ways, and underdeveloped in others) and why Red Pill marriages sound so miserable. With regard to women, Red Pill (and unfortunately some religious conservative people) don’t really get that women also generally have a need for respect.
 
On reflection, there is a reason why you should trust “feminists.”

Let’s say that there are two different types of woman:

A says, “I don’t have any needs and I don’t have any boundaries. I can do **anything **for you that you want, as long as you want me to do it. I don’t ever need you to do anything for me.”

B says, “I have needs and I have boundaries. There are some things I can do for you, but not others, and there are some things that I will need you to help me with.”

Consider for a moment, which of those two women is most likely being truthful and accurate?
How is any of that related to your Marxist, misandrist, parasitical ideology?
Nah, not exactly. In the case of MGTOWers, first they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then the MGTOWers get old and diet out one by one.

What other end game do you see here?

Really, how does this work? It looks very Undepants Gnomes-ish.

Step 1. DO NOT MARRY! DO NOT HAVE CHILDREN! DO NOT HAVE A GOOD JOB!

Step 2. ???

Step 3. Profit!

What is step 2?
Who ever said anything about not having a good job? Do whatever you want to fulfill your financial needs while minimizing your taxes paid to the government.

Ever read Atlas Shrugged? It makes some interesting points about good, evil and their relation to power. When evil people use manipulation and guilt instead of brute force, all you have to do to defeat them is to go on strike.
You can kind of tell this by the fact that Pick Up technique assumes that the pick up artist is going to wind up hitting on hundreds of women for every one woman who responds positively to the techniques.
When I apply for jobs, I do not send out just one application and pin all my hopes and dreams on it. Hiring managers can smell that desperation, over-investment, and lack of options from a mile away.
 
Ever read Atlas Shrugged? It makes some interesting points about good, evil and their relation to power. When evil people use manipulation and guilt instead of brute force, all you have to do to defeat them is to go on strike.When I apply for jobs, I do not send out just one application and pin all my hopes and dreams on it. Hiring managers can smell that desperation, over-investment, and lack of options from a mile away.
You also don’t send out 500 copies of a junky resume to anybody and everybody, hiring or not, thinking, “Well, there might be one or two people who’ll say, ‘Aw, what the heck. Sure.’” (You know what you get you get when you apply for jobs like that? “Investment opportunities,” i.e. scams. Curious.)

There’s a middle ground, don’t you think?

Also, your repeated references to Ayn Rand, as somehow the pinnacle of all enlightenment, are not doing you any favors. It’s actually just as obnoxious as people who can’t shut up about Marxism, and shows about the same level of maturity.
 
Hiring managers can smell that desperation, over-investment, and lack of options from a mile away.
Trust me, when you’re hitting on every reasonably attractive woman, we can smell the desperation too. It really takes your attractiveness way down if you look like you just want anything with breasts. Why would I want to be with a guy who clearly wants, essentially, a virginal prostitute?

As far as job applications, you don’t apply to just one job, but sending out a quick application to every job in the area that might possibly work is also not a recommended strategy.
How is any of that related to your Marxist, misandrist, parasitical ideology?
This is just plain old immature.

To put it bluntly - the problem is most of these so-called “alpha males” don’t sound like alpha males. They sound like whiny teenagers complaining that their combination of sex toy and mommy substitute didn’t fix them the dinner they liked, and running around making passive-aggressive insults at anyone who says anything negative about them.
 
**How is any of that related to your Marxist, misandrist, parasitical ideology?**Who ever said anything about not having a good job? Do whatever you want to fulfill your financial needs while minimizing your taxes paid to the government.

Ever read Atlas Shrugged? It makes some interesting points about good, evil and their relation to power. When evil people use manipulation and guilt instead of brute force, all you have to do to defeat them is to go on strike.When I apply for jobs, I do not send out just one application and pin all my hopes and dreams on it. Hiring managers can smell that desperation, over-investment, and lack of options from a mile away.
Look, how about you reply to the ideas that I am talking about, rather than assuming that I hold some completely different set of ideas? I’ve got 15,000 posts on CAF. If I’m a big misandrist Marxist, it ought to be in there somewhere.

For your convenience, here’s what I think about the trustworthiness of people who say they have no needs:

"Let’s say that there are two different types of woman:

"A says, “I don’t have any needs and I don’t have any boundaries. I can do anything for you that you want, as long as you want me to do it. I don’t ever need you to do anything for me.”

"B says, “I have needs and I have boundaries. There are some things I can do for you, but not others, and there are some things that I will need you to help me with.”

“Consider for a moment, which of those two women is most likely being truthful and accurate?”

Here’s an alternate form of the argument.

Let’s say that there are two people selling two different cars.

A says, “This car runs without gas or any other fuel or energy source. It never needs oil changes, new tires, new filters or fluids of any kind, and it never needs repairs.”

B says, “This car consumes about a gallon of gas every 25 miles. It needs oil changes every 5,000 miles, new tires every 25,000 miles, and periodic maintenance. I’ve spent $800 on repairs this past year but it seems to be running well now.”

Which of the two (A or B) is more likely to be providing honest and accurate information about the car that he is selling and would be a safer person to do business with?

The argument I’m making is that a person who makes clear, detailed descriptions of their needs is (in the long run) easier and safer to deal with. And I have to admit, I have been A myself because I just didn’t know any better. I’m trying to be B now, and I’m actually a much pleasanter, easier to be around person than I used to be.

Moving on, it’s actually not uncommon for MGTOWers to want minimize income in order to stick it to the Man (or the Woman in their case). That’s probably because they think they’re going to be young forever and haven’t thought much about what life looks like for 50-year-old broke single guys with neglected health and teeth, an unrewarding career, and no savings.

I haven’t read Atlas Shrugged, but I’ve actually been a rather informed conservative since I was middle school aged 30 years ago (I started reading the Gulag Archipelago at 12 or so). I was a college Russian major and have both studied in post-Soviet Russia (1994) and worked there (1995-1997) and have had many Russian friends over the years, plus for good measure, I’m married into a Polish emigre family. I could talk for hours and hours and bore us both silly on the subject of altruism and Soviet communism. (Cliff Notes version: Altruism is great! But we can’t be expected to be altruistic all the time.) You’ll notice that I haven’t actually been pushing the idea of non-stop altruism. In fact, that’s the whole point of what I’ve been saying about needs–that it is not workable to demand that one group of people (be they men or women) be altruistic all the time.

The crazy thing about the view you’re taking is believing that you can just start thinking about your needs and forget about everybody else’s needs and that life will be fantastic. Well, that’s not how it works (just like my need to drive does not eliminate my car’s need for gas, oil changes, and repairs). A functional, sustainable life and functional, sustainable relationships require a balance between different people’s needs.

Pensmama87 makes a very good point about resumes. For good jobs, they have to be tailored to the job. I also have to mention that the last time my husband applied for a job, he was only applying to the one position and he got it. He had a job at the time, which does make a difference, but in the case of this one job, there was such a good fit between what they wanted and what he wanted that it wasn’t necessary to spray and pray. Likewise, I’ve only ever dated four people my whole life and I’m the only person my husband has ever dated. When there’s a high degree of compatibility, it’s not necessary to do pickup style SPAM–pickup is the equivalent of the dozen emails I delete from my inbox every day without even reading the whole subject line. It’s no wonder that PUA’s whine so incessantly about all the terrible women they meet–of course they are going to meet women that are worse than average, using their methods.
 
Trust me, when you’re hitting on every reasonably attractive woman, we can smell the desperation too. It really takes your attractiveness way down if you look like you just want anything with breasts. Why would I want to be with a guy who clearly wants, essentially, a virginal prostitute?

[snip]

To put it bluntly - the problem is most of these so-called “alpha males” don’t sound like alpha males. They sound like whiny teenagers complaining that their combination of sex toy and mommy substitute didn’t fix them the dinner they liked, and running around making passive-aggressive insults at anyone who says anything negative about them.
Speaking for myself, what has been very attractive to me is a guy who values what is special and unusual about me. My future husband, for example, is both a Slav and a language hobbyist–he was very pleased to learn that I was studying both Polish (his first language) and Old Church Slavonic (the mother language for current modern Slavic languages). That may sound a bit dry and boring, but when you have a number of unusual passions like that and the other person is at all attractive, they’ll look smoking hot to you–even if not to everybody else. Attraction is much more individual than Red Pill guys or pick up artists understand–otherwise we’d all be dating the same person.

I agree about “alphas.” If they are so gosh darn self-sufficient, why is it that they can’t shut up about what they want from women and aren’t getting?
 
The Anne of Green Gables series is about the boring beta getting the girl. It’s about their entire life together and how much she loves having her boring doctor beta.

That series has sold more than 50 Shades, and over a longer period, and is in fact more influential on young sweet Christian girls’ husband-desires than anything with brash alpha types.

That’s just one of easily a dozen extremely popular culture examples I can think of where the boring man with a solid job and work ethic gets the girl and it’s portrayed as romantic and wonderful.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top