Things that go bump in the night ... for atheists

[Bob_Crowley]

For the atheists here … I claim to have had my father turn up in my room the night he died. He started with an apology, we argued and conversed, and at the end (probably only about two or three minutes in total), he gave this terrifying scream and disappeared.

So far I haven’t heard anything quite the same from anybody else, but I suspect there are a few people around for whom the story would not sound strange.

Anyway I found a nursing site which has a section related to “ghost” stories. The link is below.

allnurses.com/general-nursing-discussion/whats-your-best-108202-page3.html

Here’s a sample -

"We had a patient, chronic CHFer, always on the call button, hated being on fluid restrictions. you know the type: the nurses have to take turns during the shift answering the call button so the primary can actually do other work.

And this was a frequent flier cause he was very chronic, very borderline, and the hospital was the only place he wouldn’t fluid overload.

I work 7p-7a. He died about 8pm. Oh the look on his face, like, “how could you let me die!” - Like it was our fault.

Anyway, family came and gone by 9pm, funeral home gone at 930pm.

About 10pm, the call button starts going off. I was there - call button going off every 5 minutes.

One of the nurses was a very spiritual girl. At about 2am, after like 4 HOURS OF THIS, nurse Mary snaps, ‘Enough!’

She walks down to the room, and, practically screams into the empty room, “Mr X, you have died. You can’t be in here bothering us anymore. Move along. In the name of Jesus, I’m exorcising you from this plane of existence. Go to the light and be happy!”

And I kid you not, the call button stopped going off then and there.

~faith,
Timothy. "

 

[Leela]

For the atheists here … I claim to have had my father turn up in my room the night he died. He started with an apology, we argued and conversed, and at the end (probably only about two or three minutes in total), he gave this terrifying scream and disappeared.

So far I haven’t heard anything quite the same from anybody else, but I suspect there are a few people around for whom the story would not sound strange.

I never had such an experience. I don’t doubt that you did, but I think I would be much more cautious about drawing metaphysical conclusions about such an experience than you seem to be.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

So if your father turned up the night he died, argued and conversed with you for three or four minutes, and then disappeared with one almighty scream, and you later found out he’d died at just that time, you wouldn’t draw any conclusions from it?

In other words, seeing wouldn’t be believing?

 

[HelenaMT]

For the atheists here … I claim to have had my father turn up in my room the night he died. He started with an apology, we argued and conversed, and at the end (probably only about two or three minutes in total), he gave this terrifying scream and disappeared.

So far I haven’t heard anything quite the same from anybody else, but I suspect there are a few people around for whom the story would not sound strange.

Anyway I found a nursing site which has a section related to “ghost” stories. The link is below.

allnurses.com/general-nursing-discussion/whats-your-best-108202-page3.html

Here’s a sample -

"We had a patient, chronic CHFer, always on the call button, hated being on fluid restrictions. you know the type: the nurses have to take turns during the shift answering the call button so the primary can actually do other work.

And this was a frequent flier cause he was very chronic, very borderline, and the hospital was the only place he wouldn’t fluid overload.

I work 7p-7a. He died about 8pm. Oh the look on his face, like, “how could you let me die!” - Like it was our fault.

Anyway, family came and gone by 9pm, funeral home gone at 930pm.

About 10pm, the call button starts going off. I was there - call button going off every 5 minutes.

One of the nurses was a very spiritual girl. At about 2am, after like 4 HOURS OF THIS, nurse Mary snaps, ‘Enough!’

She walks down to the room, and, practically screams into the empty room, “Mr X, you have died. You can’t be in here bothering us anymore. Move along. In the name of Jesus, I’m exorcising you from this plane of existence. Go to the light and be happy!”

And I kid you not, the call button stopped going off then and there.

~faith,
Timothy. "

How exactly do you make sense of your experience? Some might call it supernatural, but I would see it only as evidence that our consciousness extends beyond our bodies in some way and that there should be some way eventually to figure out how. I’ve had several experiences with what I can only describe as psychic phenomena, but they never made me believe they were beyond explanation. They’ve just made me intensely curious about what they were and what implications they had for my worldview.

 

[Leela]

So if your father turned up the night he died, argued and conversed with you for three or four minutes, and then disappeared with one almighty scream, and you later found out he’d died at just that time, you wouldn’t draw any conclusions from it?

In other words, seeing wouldn’t be believing?

Seeing would be believing for me. I would believe that what you say happened really happened if it happened to me, but what would it all mean beyond that it happened? How do you interpret this experience in terms of the nature of reality or how you ought to live your life or what happened to your father?

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Seeing would be believing for me. I would believe that what you say happened really happened if it happened to me, but what would it all mean beyond that it happened? How do you interpret this experience in terms of the nature of reality or how you ought to live your life or what happened to your father?

To me, now, it means he was judged. That implies life after death, and it implies a judge.

 

[Leela]

To me, now, it means he was judged. That implies life after death, and it implies a judge.

Couldn’t it also be interpreted as meaning that your father died in pain or as meaning lots of other different things? It seems to me that your interpretation is made based on a Christian understanding of reality and then is used as evidence that the Christian tradition has things right.

 

[HelenaMT]

To me, now, it means he was judged. That implies life after death, and it implies a judge.

How do you know that he screamed because he was heading to hell? Maybe he was already on edge because he was dead and didn’t know what to expect?

I guess for me the content of the conversation would have been the most important thing to look at: did he know he was dead? Was he actually dead when the experience took place or was he in the process of dying? Was he trying to warn you? Did he tell you anything you couldn’t have known on your own ? (I ran that over in my mind going over my own experiences, to see if I could have imagined them) Did the experience seem physical or did it have a more dreamlike feel? Has the memory changed much with time ?

The implication of life after death can certainly be made if he was already dead, and you are sure it was an actual, not mental, occurrence, but the inference of a judge or hell does not necessarily follow from that alone. It might not contradict your Christian beliefs but it’s not solid evidence for them taken at face value.

Same with the nurse story. Consciousness may continue but we still don’t know how, why, or for how long simply based on that evidence.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

How do you know that he screamed because he was heading to hell? Maybe he was already on edge because he was dead and didn’t know what to expect?

I guess for me the content of the conversation would have been the most important thing to look at: did he know he was dead? Was he actually dead when the experience took place or was he in the process of dying? Was he trying to warn you? Did he tell you anything you couldn’t have known on your own ? (I ran that over in my mind going over my own experiences, to see if I could have imagined them) Did the experience seem physical or did it have a more dreamlike feel? Has the memory changed much with time ?

The implication of life after death can certainly be made if he was already dead, and you are sure it was an actual, not mental, occurrence, but the inference of a judge or hell does not necessarily follow from that alone. It might not contradict your Christian beliefs but it’s not solid evidence for them taken at face value.

Same with the nurse story. Consciousness may continue but we still don’t know how, why, or for how long simply based on that evidence.

At one stage during the proceedings I asked “What is this, a dream or something?” He looked bemused, and replied, “No, it’s not a dream. I died tonight.”

So he was dead, by his very own admission.

Secondly the scream at the end was easily the most terrifying scream I’ve ever witnessed. I don’'t think a person about to be dragged back to the torture cells would scream so horribly or in such sheer terror. He was shaking from head to foot, and his arms were being held out in front of him as though he was trying to ward something off. In fact I had the impression he was being brought closer to me so I got the message. I was an atheist myself at the time, and not living an exemplary life.

I suggest you read the description of Hell in Sr. Lucia’s testimony about Fatima and in her words, how it was so frightening that if Mary had prolonged the vision for another couple of seconds, she thought she’d have died from fright.

As far as I’m concerned, that’s what he saw coming for him.

During the earlier part of the proceedings, he spent most of it looking over my head. When I turned around to see what it was that he was looking at, all I could see was the wall. Basically he had two main features during that part of it - either he looked completely enthralled, like someone who may be witnessing a scene of unspeakable beauty.

Or he was hiding his face behind his hands as though he couldn’t bear to see what he was looking at, and even then trying to turn his face away from what he was looking at. A those times, I think he was seeing some of the less salubrious sections of his life being played back to him, and he was so appalled he couldn’t bear to look at it, in the light of the divine love that so enthralled him at other times.

That’s my interpretation. And I might point out that if he was looking at God over and above my head (I wasn’t allowed to see what he was looking at), he turned to my left (and God’s left for that matter) at the very end. As Christ said, the sheep will go to the right, and the goats to the left.

 

[DominicSavio23]

These sorts of experiences, along with NDE (near death experiences) and other sorts of seemingly super-natural experiences raise interesting questions for atheists (and believers alike!).

There are different sorts of responses that can be made. Most of them on individual bases for individual experiences. I think the straight-up materialists, someone like Pinker, have the most difficulty responding to these sorts of things.

Although, unless someone experiences these sorts of things for themselves (and they don’t seem to be all that common of experiences), it’s unlikely for them to be convinced… It’s too easily pushed under the rug, so to say. It doesn’t meet their standards or criterion for knowledge.

Nonetheless, while not necessarily absolutely convincing, these sorts of things might raise that “Perhaps” thought… And that itself can be a huge step.

 

[4Horsemen]

It’s generally very hard to believe in someone else’s other-worldly experiences . . . except, perhaps, when one has had something happen in his or her own life.

A strange thing happened some time after my mother had died. She used to use the guest room in my home for seven years, but I eventually remodeled it. One night, when my daughter was home from college, I went to bed and before falling asleep heard a horrible sound (not a scream, but like someone making a vocal cry of intense pain) eight times outside my mother’s room. About after the fourth or fifth time I hurried out of bed towards her room and then my daughter came out of her room upstairs. She asked me what that noise was. I couldn’t say.

However, I decided to have more Masses said and prayers, too, for my mother. Perhaps she was allowed to call out from Purgatory to ask for help. I really don’t know. I couldn’t entertain the thought that the sound could have come from Hell itself. My mother was religious, but suffered from dementia towards the end of her life making it very difficult to live with her at times. Nonetheless, I can only console myself with the thought that she may have been crying out for prayers.

As for your father, please don’t assume the worst. Remember that the devil is the master or father of lies and can appear in many forms, including as “an angel of light.” Many great saints have attested to this and had to deal with the devil in their lives. Continue to pray and sacrifice for your father and be sure to have Masses said. God bless you.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

These sorts of experiences, along with NDE (near death experiences) and other sorts of seemingly super-natural experiences raise interesting questions for atheists (and believers alike!).

There are different sorts of responses that can be made. Most of them on individual bases for individual experiences. I think the straight-up materialists, someone like Pinker, have the most difficulty responding to these sorts of things.

Although, unless someone experiences these sorts of things for themselves (and they don’t seem to be all that common of experiences), it’s unlikely for them to be convinced… It’s too easily pushed under the rug, so to say. It doesn’t meet their standards or criterion for knowledge.

Nonetheless, while not necessarily absolutely convincing, these sorts of things might raise that “Perhaps” thought… And that itself can be a huge step.

I"ve had other experiences besides the business of my father appearing, although that one was unique in my experience. Amongst other experiences were a voice cutting right across my thoughts on two occasions. One instance related to writing, and the other to a young lady I had a crush on (which would have been a disaster had it gone any further).

When I spoke about this to my Catholic psychiatrist (whom I initially saw due to depression, and whom I now see only about twice a year), he then said, “Did I tell you about my experience?” He’d been typing on his computer in his office, when a voice said, out of the blue, “Go to Maclean” (I’ve told this one before too). There was no context, no reason, nothing. So he just noted it.

A couple of months later he was involved in a family healing mass, when an aboriginal woman came up to him later and said she didn’t want to be a nuisance, but she seemed to think he should go to Maclean. Having been primed by the voice in the office two months before, he went. He ended up on some river island where aboriginals were incarcerated in the early days of white settlement. It seems there was some unfinished spiritual business.

So I’m not the only one. Even my Catholic psychiatrist has had his fair share of supernatural experiences. In fact, a lot of Christians have supernatural experiences of one sort or another, and they vary quite a lot.

However by themselves these experiences don’t prove Christianity is the truth. I’ve started reading a book called “The Fourth Dimension” by Paul Yonggi Cho (he’s a Korean pastor with the world’s largest church). Regardless of whether I agree with all of his theology, he made the point that it’s not uncommon in Korea for Buddhist’s to have healing miracles, and one cannot simply write them off as all being from the devil. Which of course poses problems for Christians, trying to convert followers of other faiths.

What these supernatural incidents do is to point out is that there is definitely a spiritual realm.

 

[JohnDamian]

What these supernatural incidents do is to point out is that there is definitely a spiritual realm.

No; these events indicate that the possibility of a spiritual realm is commonly accepted - nothing more.

 

[flyingfish]

People also have accounts of being abducted by aliens, floating out of their body and flying around the universe (astral projection), meetings with various supernatural beings of the various religions.

How would you decide which to believe and which to dismiss? Or do you believe people are abducted by aliens and poked with instruments?

 

[aperture]

What makes you think it wasn’t just a dream? From what I can tell you were sort of alseep when the whole thing started

 

[AntiTheist]

I’m not really impressed by ghost stories.

As others have noted, there is eyewitness testimony from people who claim to have been abducted by UFOs – sometimes whole groups of them that tell similar stories.

All sorts of people think they see or experience things that they don’t really see or experience. The senses are extremely fallible and easily fooled or confused.

If you really think you saw a ghost, then nothing I say is ever going to convince you otherwise. Good luck to you.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

People also have accounts of being abducted by aliens, floating out of their body and flying around the universe (astral projection), meetings with various supernatural beings of the various religions.

How would you decide which to believe and which to dismiss? Or do you believe people are abducted by aliens and poked with instruments?

I think we’re all well aware of the claims of UFO’s etc. However in the case of my father appearing on the night he died, I lived in the same house has him for most of 20 years.

I think I’d know him from an alien. When a psychiatrist hears a voice out of thin air telling him to do something (and he’s a man who constantly deals with people who may or may not be imagining things), and then two months later, it becomes clear what the voice was priming him for, that’s not imagination either.

Give us some credit for intelligence. You’re not the only one who can think.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

I’m not really impressed by ghost stories.

As others have noted, there is eyewitness testimony from people who claim to have been abducted by UFOs – sometimes whole groups of them that tell similar stories.

All sorts of people think they see or experience things that they don’t really see or experience. The senses are extremely fallible and easily fooled or confused.

If you really think you saw a ghost, then nothing I say is ever going to convince you otherwise. Good luck to you.

There are two follow up anecdotes to this. As far as I’m concerned God had a hand in both. But you might like to work out the odds of both of these things happening by chance.

Due to certain things my father said (eg. “You’ll meet a pastor. You’ll think he’s great, but all he’ll do is discourage you even more.”. I met the pastor in question nearly 4 years after my father died; he did make a strong impression on me, but about 13 years after my father died, the pastor apologised with the following words, “I owe you an apology … You needed encouragement, but all I’ve done is to discourage you even more!”). So that was an accurate prediction by my “dead” father. However there were other predictions he made eg. “They’ll (Moslems) fly a couple of planes into a couple of buildings …” Any idea what he might have been referring to there? But he died in January 1979.

There were other rather dire pronouncements he made which cause some frustration, both personal and regarding society as a whole.

So … I drove a cab and Maxi Taxi part time for a few years. When I was doing a night shift early on, I just happened to drive up the street where my father died. This prompted me to pray in some annoyance for some sort of indication that what he said was real, and had relevance. I got this sort of sense I ought to know better. Anyway I headed off to the city. Somewhat later the same night, a bloke came wandering up, hopped in and said, “Nundah”. I asked him whereabouts in Nundah. He just said to drive and he’d tell me. So off we went, and ended up directly opposite where my father died. My father died at no. 7, this bloke lived at no. 6.

Brisbane has a population of about two million people. You can calculate the odds against the fact I ended up right opposite his place of death the same night I requested some sort of “sign”, in the same street where I’d prayed.

On the second occasion I’d been arguing about NDE’s with atheists on a Google web site and getting nowhere. So I prayed I might meet a person who’d had an NDE. About two or three days later, when I was driving a Maxi Taxi, I got a job which turned out to be a single bloke from a nursing home, who’d only wanted an ordinary job. But somehow the job was reserved for a Maxi and I got it. We’d only been going about two minutes, when he commented he was one of those “rare people”. I asked him what he was talking about and he said he’d been technically dead for ten minutes following an operation. So here was the NDE I’d asked for.

Since it was quite a long fare we had a chance to talk. He was only about my age, young for a nursing home, but life and illness had put him there. It turned out however, that he’d been in the same high school class as the eldest son of the same uncle who turned up to tell me my father had died (four days after the “visit” since his body wasn’t found for four days).

Now you work out the odds of such close coincidences on two occasions, in a city of nearly 2 million people. And in the second one, I also met my NDE.

 

[flyingfish]

I think we’re all well aware of the claims of UFO’s etc. However in the case of my father appearing on the night he died, I lived in the same house has him for most of 20 years.

I think I’d know him from an alien. When a psychiatrist hears a voice out of thin air telling him to do something (and he’s a man who constantly deals with people who may or may not be imagining things), and then two months later, it becomes clear what the voice was priming him for, that’s not imagination either.

Give us some credit for intelligence. You’re not the only one who can think.

I am not insulting your intelligence, I am saying people vividly experience things like alien abductions as well as ghost sightings. This casts severe doubt on all such claims. If you believe in natural explanations of abduction stories, why not of ghost stories as well.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

I am not insulting your intelligence, I am saying people vividly experience things like alien abductions as well as ghost sightings. This casts severe doubt on all such claims. If you believe in natural explanations of abduction stories, why not of ghost stories as well.

I don’t accept every ghost story on face value. The person could be making it up, or they may have been seen a mist, vapor or just a coincidental image that looked like someone etc. On the other hand, when I read in one story that a New Zealand navy sailor was visited by his grandmother who sat on the foot of his bed, and chatted with him, but he was on a ship somewhat out in the Pacific Ocean, and later found out she’d died at just about that time, I am forced to one of 3 conclusions -

1. He’s making the story up (ie. lying to put it bluntly)
2. He had a dream or something similar at the same time or
3. He’s telling the truth.

However when the “ghost” is someone a person may have known well for years, I find that more credible than a UFO or alien sighting, for which, one might say, there’s no precedent. And since I’ve had the experience of my own father turning up in my own bedroom on the night he died, I cannot just discount anybody else’s story off hand. They may be lying, but due to my own experience, I have to give them the benefit of the doubt.

And I might point out that I’ve only had the one experience as related above. There have been other experiences, and if you’d experienced them, you’d also know there’s a hidden spiritual world all around us that can contact us whenever it feels like it. Very clearly too.

My father started with an apology. And he had a few things to apologise for, I can tell you. I think he was sent to apologise, tell me a few things about the future, explain a few things (eg. he was jealous of the opportunities I had and he didn’t) and give me an object lesson that judgment exists with the terrifying vision of his final scream, just before he disappeared. I was an atheist myself at the time, and it served as a warning.

Yet it still took another nearly four years though before I made the decision to become a Christian, and even then it really had nothing to do with the episode of the apparition. But he visited me all right.