Think the TLM and the NO can exist side by side in the same parish?

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ncstevem

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I’m not very impressed by what I’ve read and heard so far.

I’ve read several posts where the poster desribed a situation that the TLM crowd and the NO crowd have little to no interaction at the same parish.

Anyone belong to a parish which falls into this category? How successful is the blending of the pairshoners? How about the situation at St. John Cantius Church in Chicago which is probably the highest profile Catholic Church in the US that falls into this category?
 
Obviously it is supposed to read ‘Think’ in the subject line.
 
I go to a parish that offers both and it seems like you’re right, but these are just my personal observations since I’m not a member of the parish. It does not seem like there is any interaction between the two “groups,” but I think this is because there is such a big difference. The NO Mass here is very modern/progressive, to include a large band, laughter, hand-holding etc. but the TLM is very reverent. There’s even applause at the end of the Mass, and you can see some of the TLM’ers cringe because they’re in the narthex waiting to get in to pray. I’ve even heard complaints from the TLM’ers about the loud people hanging around after the last NO Mass has been celebrated.

I think they can coexist, however, if the parish itself is traditional in nature. My home parish would be able to do this but they don’t offer the TLM.
 
The parish that we belong to offers both masses, and it works really well. People do interact quite a bit. After the morning mass (TLM) we have coffee and donuts, and many people coming in for the noon ordinary form mass stop by to visit. We also have classes for the children once a month between masses that families from both masses attend. The priests at our parish help one another out quite a bit, and get to know the parishioners from both masses. So, in our experience, it can be done, and done well!
 
ncstevem said:
I’m not very impressed by what I’ve read and heard so far.

I’ve read several posts where the poster desribed a situation that the TLM crowd and the NO crowd have little to no interaction at the same parish.

Anyone belong to a parish which falls into this category? How successful is the blending of the pairshoners? How about the situation at St. John Cantius Church in Chicago which is probably the highest profile Catholic Church in the US that falls into this category?
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To answer your title question, yes they can and will co-exist in the same parish. But it will take time.

Over the years there has been a lot of “attitude” built up on both sides of the issue. This will take some time, possibly a geneation to really overcome.

Of course individual parishes will vary on this depending on many factors, but largely on the way in which the pastor chooses to incorporate the EF into the life of the parish. Also those involved with the “worship commission” at the parish can also have a strong influence. If they embrace it as valid and beneficial and work to make it an accepted part of parish life, then the average parishoner will more quickly accept it.

The Magisterium, The Holy Father has already declared the EF Valid, Licit and, most importantly, desireable in every parish. Now it is just a matter of promoting the EF in a Loving and Christian Manner.

Peace
James
 
They can exist side by side. Right now, however, many churches are trying to work into their parishes side by side different vernaculars of the OF. If one Latin Mass could be inserted to unite all sides, that would be great.
 
I currently attend the EF at two parishes.

Parish 1: Pastor offers both forms of the Roman Liturgy. On Saturday, EF in the morning, OF in the evening. Sunday is OF-EF-OF in the morning, OF in the evening. The pastor does not seem to actually have a preference for one form over the other. He and all visiting priests offer clean, tight, reverent masses, regardless of form. Always ad orientem. This parish has about 1500 registered families. Parishioners seem to interact freely before and after all masses.

Parish 2: Pastor offers OF masses in two vernacular languages. TLM community has dedicated priest from a nearby religious community. On Sunday morning it is EF-OF-OF, evening is OF. After the EF, the sanctuary is reconfigured for the OF. Parish has about 2000 registered families. Here, the TLM community hosted by the Parish. Our priest reminds us often and encourages us to support the parish and diocese through registration and regular donations. Parishioners are friendly and greet each other but their interaction is brief because of the mass schedule.
 
Its possible but it is going to take a long time. Right now there are too many differences.

Example; the NO calls for a free standing Altar; the EF is best celebrated with the Altar against the wall (although it can be done on a free standing one) . Many resent the fact that the NO holds control over most churches and the Bishop refuses to allow the Altar to be moved. Again there are exceptions.

Example: the location of the priests chair for a High Mass (the low Mass is not a problem as the priest never sits).

Example: socialization tends to be a bit “stilted” because of a sense of distrust between the two parties.

While changing an OF Sanctuary to an EF Sanctuary, plenty of time must be alloted. Altar must be dressed properly, flowers moved, sometimes felt banners are not appropriate for the EF Mass. Sometimes pianos, and other instruments must be moved away from the front of the church. ( So which ever Mass is being done second has a big chore to accomplish)

If the local priest would celebrate both forms I think that a transition to benign acceptance of each other could be accomplish quicker. And eventually there would be few problems.

But all of this is pure speculation. Time will tell.
 
My parish celebrates both the EF/TLM and NO… and I think they coexist rather nicely (of course, the same priest also usually celebrates both Masses). Our CCD/youth group program is composed of kids/families who attend both Masses, so there is quite a bit of interaction between the TLM goers and the NO goers. The CCD teachers/youth group leaders are also a mixed bunch from both Masses. So I would say there is quite a bit of interaction between the parishioners. Of course, my parish is also smaller and inner-city, so I wonder if that makes a difference?
 
My wife and I attend St. Agnes Church in St. Paul, MN. We have an OF Latin High Mass on the second and fourth Sundays of each month and an EF Latin High Mass on the first, third, and fifth Sundays (all at 10:00 AM). Thus, the same people are attending the OF and EF forms and everyone gets along great. We do have other OF English Masses on Sundays and as we don’t go to them I’m not sure if they are a completely different crowd just people who can’t make the 10 AM for whatever reason. St. Agnes is somewhat of a unique parish since we have been having a OF Latin High Mass (with Gregorian Chant and Polyphony) since right after the Council. St. Agnes was actually one of the first parishes in the US to offer the NO Mass since they were able to do it in Latin before the first English missals were released!
 
ies0716 said:
My wife and I attend St. Agnes Church in St. Paul, MN. We have an OF Latin High Mass on the second and fourth Sundays of each month and an EF Latin High Mass on the first, third, and fifth Sundays (all at 10:00 AM). Thus, the same people are attending the OF and EF forms and everyone gets along great. We do have other OF English Masses on Sundays and as we don’t go to them I’m not sure if they are a completely different crowd just people who can’t make the 10 AM for whatever reason. St. Agnes is somewhat of a unique parish since we have been having a OF Latin High Mass (with Gregorian Chant and Polyphony) since right after the Council. St. Agnes was actually one of the first parishes in the US to offer the NO Mass since they were able to do it in Latin before the first English missals were released!
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Sounds pretty cool. Do you have problems with the calendars?
 
It would be fantastic if they could. **But it’s not a question of the TLM and the NO living side by side, it’s a question of the TLM Catholics and the NO Catholics living side by side. **Can it be done? I am incredibly pessimistic, but infinitely hopeful.
 
ies0716 said:
My wife and I attend St. Agnes Church in St. Paul, MN. We have an OF Latin High Mass on the second and fourth Sundays of each month and an EF Latin High Mass on the first, third, and fifth Sundays (all at 10:00 AM). Thus, the same people are attending the OF and EF forms and everyone gets along great. We do have other OF English Masses on Sundays and as we don’t go to them I’m not sure if they are a completely different crowd just people who can’t make the 10 AM for whatever reason. St. Agnes is somewhat of a unique parish since we have been having a OF Latin High Mass (with Gregorian Chant and Polyphony) since right after the Council. St. Agnes was actually one of the first parishes in the US to offer the NO Mass since they were able to do it in Latin before the first English missals were released!
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I think this is the key. The OF masses need to honour the intent of the V2 Council and the Liturgical commission and ensure that their masses are sacred and reverent. If the OF was conducted with sound translations, communion on the tongue kneeling, priest facing the altar, no altar girls, with incense, plenty of Latin and gregorian chant then we would all be pretty much on the same page.

However these innovations to the mass which have come about by disobedience of the people and their bishops in open defiance of the wishes and intent of the Vatican have created a rift in the church which is seriously in need of mending. Sadly the Latin Mass sticks out like a sore thumb when compared to the OF of today when in fact the OF should have been an organic development out of the Latin Mass and be far more like the EF than it is currently presented to be.
 
valient_Lucy said:
It would be fantastic if they could. **But it’s not a question of the TLM and the NO living side by side, it’s a question of the TLM Catholics and the NO Catholics living side by side. **Can it be done? I am incredibly pessimistic, but infinitely hopeful.
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I have great faith in the power of the mass both in the OF and the EF to transform the people into the holy people of God that Vatican II and JPII were deeply desiring.

It’s only because the OF has been compromised by disobedient innovations that much of its transforming power has been lost. I believe if we make our OF masses sacred and reverent that the liberals and modernists will be driven away and the people who remain will strive for the holiness expressed in the mass.
Unity is only even achieved through truth and the OF and EF masses properly presented both express truth and therefore have the capacity to unite the people of God.
 
In the case of my parish-no. People don’t mix. The NO crowd have an attitude towards the TLM and every opportunity is used to let us know that we are using their facilities, rather than being a part of the parish. Just the other sunday a woman walked into the church and started hissing at people who were sitting in the back pews because ‘our’ Mass went 20 minutes over and said we should not linger now that it’s finished because the ‘regular’ parish has something on. We weren’t even allowed to have our usual after-mass tea and coffee because the other group wanted to use the hall.

Things like this happen all the time. I was once asked by a woman (NO Mass) why on earth do I go to that that thing.** How sad is that?

As for arranging the altar, it is not a problem. It is quite light and easy to move to the wall. The servers do it before Mass and move it back afterwards.
 
What does TLM and NO mean?

Are Catholics actually arguing with each other about Mass?
 
JadeStarr said:
What does TLM and NO mean?

Are Catholics actually arguing with each other about Mass?
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Traditional Latin Mass (Tridentine/ Extraordinary Form).
Novus Ordo (New Mass).

Yes, we argue a lot, believe it or not. 😦
 
Thank you, Contra. I thought that Catholics would follow the teachings of the Vatican.
Do both groups owe allegiance to the Vatican and to what the Pope says or does one group have another leader?

Are they arguing about the recent scandals or the Bible or what?

I wonder if there is any religion where people can get along?
 
JadeStarr said:
Thank you, Contra. I thought that Catholics would follow the teachings of the Vatican.
Do both groups owe allegiance to the Vatican and to what the Pope says or does one group have another leader?

Are they arguing about the recent scandals or the Bible or what?

I wonder if there is any religion where people can get along?
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I’m afraid there is no simple answer to this one. You will probably hear very strong opinions on the matter. This particular issue has nothing to do with the sex scandals or the Bible but is about the liturgy.
I’m sure you’ve heard about the 2nd Vatican Council. The council has had very strong supporters, but also groups who completely question its validity and those who accept its validity but find it rather controversial. The council generated liturgical reform - the Novus Ordo Mass (what you get in Catholic churches these days). Traditional liturgy has ended up being sidelined and unfortunately, even hated by many. Pope Benedict has made big steps in promoting the traditional liturgy and there are definitely improvements in that area. The new Mass and the traditional one are supposed to be considered equal and exist side by side, but still that is not the case. This is what people argue over: do we need traditional liturgy? Some see it as going back to the past (and consider it to be a bad thing), and others are excited about it and want to see traditional liturgy restored. Of course, there are many positions in-between these two, and also quite radical ones. It is a sensitive topic for many and sparks fly very often 😊

You could read up about this if interested, there is a lot of material out there. I’m sure many posters will have excellent suggestions about where to start.

As for religion in which people don’t argue, I think that doesn’t exist. Human nature I guess. We like to impose our own rules and thruths to God. Christianity has had a variety of interpretations from the start and the Catholic church has fought very hard to safeguard the authentic teaching, inherited from the Apsotles.

I hope this has helped a bit to understand the question in this thread.
 
Okay, I understand, Contra.

Some people want to return to the Latin Mass, right? And they have been vocal enough about it so that the new Pope is willing to give them their way?

Personally, I think that it’s important to have a Universal language in a church…and it was very nice to think that back in the day, if you went to Mass anywhere in the world that
it would sound the same (in Latin). I feel the same way about the USA, we need a language that everyone speaks and it appears to be English is the way to go because it’s the language that most folks speak.

However, if the old Pope changed the Mass I’m sure he had his reasons and I just figured that a Catholic would have to comply or not be a Catholic anymore. I’m afraid that this
might cause a schism in the Catholic church and that would not be good for anyone.

What I’ve observed about Catholism is that the Catholics are very active when it comes to works of charity and that’s admirable and comforting. And even though I’ve read some
posts that appear hateful towards the Gay community I also know that, in my area,
the Catholics were the FIRST to have a hospice for AIDS patients and I visited a friend
there and there was nothing BUT love and compassion coming from the staff.
 
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