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Think the TLM and the NO can exist side by side in the same parish?
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Brendan
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Sure, one of the Sunday Masses at our parish is the EF, the rest are OF. My preference is the EF, my wife’s is the OF. We go to which ever one suits our schedule for the day, as do many others.
That is the case at just about every parish in my Archdiocese that offers both.
Detroit is pretty interesting in that regard. The ‘traditional’ orders, such as the FSSP and the ICKSP etc… don’t operate here. Detroit has the 3rd highest number of regular EF Masses ( after New York and Chicago), but it’s done entirely with diocesan priests who desired to bring the EF masses to their parish. Cardinal Maida was very supportive, which Archbishop Vigneron has continued. Two of our Auxilliary bishops ( +Boyea and +Quinn) also learned and regularly offered the EF. Both have since moved on to their own Sees, so a it’s not a ‘carreer limiting move’ for an auxillary to learn and say the EF
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JadeStarr
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Ah yes, the big question: why did the pope do it? It’s a mystery for many.
There has been a schism actually, although not on a super large scale. It has nevertheless hurt the Church. Things are getting sorted out with one of the groups (SSPX) which is a blessing.
Are the proponents of the Latin Mass mostly older people? Maybe Catholicism will end up like Judaism, with Orthodox and Reform Catholics, that may be a good thing actually.
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pnewton
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Sure they can. There should be no conflict at all. In my parish the biggest difference is between those that attend at different Mass times. Yet on Holy Days and get togethers, there are not sides. Enough people float to different times to kind of mix things up. We have no TLM, but we offer English, Spanish and (now)Latin.
If a problem exists, I bet you will find it is deeper than the form of liturgy.
If a problem exists, I bet you will find it is deeper than the form of liturgy.
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JRKH
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No - the proponents of the EF are not mostly older people. They cut across the age spectrum.
They are attracted to the different sprituality offered by the older form. They find it beautiful and uplifting.
Personally I am strongly atracted to the EF, but have no problems with the OF either. Each is valid, licit and contains the great gift of the Eucharist.
AND
I suspect that once sufficient numbers of people get past their fears, the two forms will exist side by side just as our Dear Lord wishes them to.
Peace
James
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ies0716
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Not really, although it’s kind of a kludge-y arrangement. On the OF Sundays, we celebrate according to the OF calender and on the EF Sundays we use the EF calendar. Since all major feast days line up it isn’t really a problem, we just alternate between “XXth Sunday of Ordinary Time” and “YYth Sunday after Pentecost”. The biggest problem in my opinion is the lack of continuity of readings, since we’re constantly switching back and forth between the two lectionaries. Also, our pastor sometimes gives his homily at the EF based on the OF Gospel since he says several OF Masses that day in addition to the EF Mass.
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JadeStarr
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Thanks to everyone in this thread, it has been most interesting and I think that both sides
have their good points.
You do not have to be a Catholic to be comforted by the Mass, I myself have experienced
a lot of joy from attending Mass.
I have experienced both styles of Mass but I had no idea that there was such a problem between the two groups. It sounds like both are saying that they are holier than the other guy.
If I surmise correctly, then neither side is being that holy, but I could be wrong.
I’m reasonably sure that Catholicism is the oldest form of Christianity.
I don’t want to see it fall by the wayside because the members are fighting among themselves, if it does then there will be no historical link to Jesus. That would be bad.
have their good points.
You do not have to be a Catholic to be comforted by the Mass, I myself have experienced
a lot of joy from attending Mass.
I have experienced both styles of Mass but I had no idea that there was such a problem between the two groups. It sounds like both are saying that they are holier than the other guy.
If I surmise correctly, then neither side is being that holy, but I could be wrong.
I’m reasonably sure that Catholicism is the oldest form of Christianity.
I don’t want to see it fall by the wayside because the members are fighting among themselves, if it does then there will be no historical link to Jesus. That would be bad.
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smithm29
Guest
I attend a small, NO only parish. We have a vigil mass on Saturdays at 4:00. We have a Sunday morning mass at 11:00. Unless there’s a picnic, we never see each other.
I used to attend another NO only parish. There was a vigil mass at 5:00, and Sunday morning masses at 9:00 and 11:00. Unless there was a picnic, we never saw each other.
I’d think it has much less to do with the form of the mass than the familiarity of the faces attending.
I used to attend another NO only parish. There was a vigil mass at 5:00, and Sunday morning masses at 9:00 and 11:00. Unless there was a picnic, we never saw each other.
I’d think it has much less to do with the form of the mass than the familiarity of the faces attending.
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ProVobis
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I think it’s more of a culture and art thing than anything else. I would break the culture thing into individual OF vernaculars as I attain a different level of spirituality in the English Mass, the Spanish Mass, the Italian Mass, and the Polish Mass. The Latin Mass, either OF or EF, is just something very special to me. Not better or worse, just special. The English Mass, on the other hand, is very banal and just feels like a dreaded obligation, no different than a normal town meeting with some prayer. To me, anyway.
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ies0716
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I agree that it would be great for everyone to “get along” but there is quite a bit if history between the two groups. Following Vatican II, Paul VI pretty much let liberal dissenters get away with murder in the interests of preventing schism, while adherents to the TLM (such as SSPX) were cracked down upon. Traditionally-oriented Catholics that remained in communion with Rome often suffered from unsympathetic bishops and suffocating rules surrounding celebration of TLM. SSPX themselves didn’t help the situation much by taking a somewhat schismatic attitude in their own right.
So here’s where we are today:
- A good chunk of the NO Church is in de facto schism due to disobedience and disbelief in key Church doctrines such as the Real Presence and the Church’s moral teachings on birth control, abortion, etc. While there are many solid NO parishes out there, many traditionalists group in all NO Catholics with the heretics and de-facto schismatics.
- The most visible “traditional” group has irregular canonical status and at the very least appears schismatic to the average NO Catholic. Since most NO Catholics don’t know much about traditionalism in general, they group in all traditionalists with SSPX.
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Contra_Mundum_1
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Are the proponents of the Latin Mass mostly older people? QUOTE]
Oh no, not at all. There is a nice mix of people of all ages in my parish. (I’m in my mid 30s and count as young I guess) Most people who go to TLM say that there are many young people who attend.
We have 3 young men who will enter seminary this autumn.
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TheDoctor
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[O.K., big deep breath and jump rigtht in…]
No. Never going to happen. Ever.
Not if we continue to refer to the forms and the people who attend them as separate congregations.
The TLM and the NO will never exist side by side becasue there is nothing to exist. There is no TLM or NO.
There are two forms of the same rite and there are Catholics who have a preference for one over the other. The real question you are asking is “Can Catholics who prefer the EF co-exist in the same parish with Catholics who prefer the OF?” Now, the answer to that is “of course, yes, (DUH!) we are all Catholic”. What may help is education and an open mind going both ways so that:
- those who have never been exposed to the EF appreciate its beauty and understand where it comes from.
- newer Catholics understand the rich depth of tradition we have
- those who prefer the EF appreciate the beauty and participation within the OF
- we build on the foundations we have while moving forward with the new opportunities we have been given
- we keep narrow minded people from doing Satan’s work by trying to split the Church up between “them” and “us”
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JRKH
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Please don’t get too flustered by this disagreement or some comments you see here. As in any group and any subject there are going to be “extremists” at both ends of the spectrum, but by and large most people are not “dead set” one way or the other.
I twice ran a poll here to get folks opinions on what they would do if “their” mass (the one they normally attend) was switched from OF to EF. By and large the response was that it would have little effect, if anything there seemed to be that the mass would be more crowded than less crowded.
Over time, as the EF expands it’s footprint in the liturgy, familiarity will replace fear and both forms will stand side by side.
Finally don’t worry about the Catholic Church going away - The gates of Hell cannot prevail against her.
Peace
James
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Ockham
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Both forms can exist in the same parish, but that doesn’t necessarily mean without issue. For one, the calendars are different. Two, as others have pointed out, Holy Mass should be said on an altar, not a table. Third, there are liberal change agents in many parishes with a hidden agenda of things like female ordination, married priests, divorce, etc. They will work ferverently against traditional Catholics and see the TLM as a thread to their progress. IMHO the ideal is separate parishes.
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Chatter163
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New Pope? Did I miss something? Last I knew, Benedict XVI has been Pope for over five years.
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JRKH
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valient_Lucy
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This is crazy and impossible, but I firmly believe that this is what has to happen.
I think that if a parish celebrates both the EF and the OF, the priest, altar boys, and choir should vary when the EF is said. Ideally, people would show up not knowing whether they would get the EF or the OF. This would FORCE that people to interact and form one parish, not two seperate ones.
I think that if a parish celebrates both the EF and the OF, the priest, altar boys, and choir should vary when the EF is said. Ideally, people would show up not knowing whether they would get the EF or the OF. This would FORCE that people to interact and form one parish, not two seperate ones.
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ProVobis
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Keep in mind, though, that those who attend the EF are more likely to come from other parishes. At least for now that may not be a very workable solution.
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Seamus_L
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We Traditional Catholics are in church to hear the TLM and not the NO. If the TLM is discontinued in the parish we attend, we’ll simply (or maybe not so simply) go where they do have it. I have no desire to be rude to anyone, but I have no wish to have an exchange of ideas with people who support having altar girls, lay people as readers, cheesy modern hymns etc.
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utah_rose
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There’s a parish that we go to once a month that has the NO Masses in the morning and a Holy Hour and TLM Mass in the afternoon, so yes, both can coexist.
We live in a highly Hispanic area which has many Spanish Masses also (including our own).
This particular priest was asked by our Bishop to also say a Spanish Mass but he nicely refused saying that the people wanted this Latin Mass.
Our parish priests on the other hand (one knows Spanish) and the other doesn’t refuse to learn the Latin Mass. As a result, our parish is divided–two English Masses and two Spanish Masses on Sunday where if EVERYONE learned the TLM Mass, it would bring more unity,
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