Think the TLM and the NO can exist side by side in the same parish?

[Joannm]

We Traditional Catholics are in church to hear the TLM and not the NO. If the TLM is discontinued in the parish we attend, we’ll simply (or maybe not so simply) go where they do have it. I have no desire to be rude to anyone, but I have no wish to have an exchange of ideas with people who support having altar girls, lay people as readers, cheesy modern hymns etc.

And this attitude is the very reason why it will be difficult to both co-exist. How will people who think this way be able to work in ministries together, sit on the pastoral council, even socialize. When both sides come to understand and accept each other’s preferences for Mass as valid, then we can talk having a real parish with both forms celebrated.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

And this attitude is the very reason why it will be difficult to both co-exist. How will people who think this way be able to work in ministries together, sit on the pastoral council, even socialize. When both sides come to understand and accept each other’s preferences for Mass as valid, then we can talk having a real parish with both forms celebrated.

The attitude I encounter all the time is that people believe they have a right to shape the liturgy according to their own tastes and ideas. Such a shame that the NO is such a departure from authentic Catholic worship. I attended it for 17 years and to be honest, I’ve had enough. I accept it as valid but prefer TLM. I’m glad that now I have a choice. If things were to change and the NO started to be celebrated as intended by 2nd Vatican Council I’d have no problem with it.

 

[valient_Lucy]

There’s a parish that we go to once a month that has the NO Masses in the morning and a Holy Hour and TLM Mass in the afternoon, so yes, both can coexist.

We live in a highly Hispanic area which has many Spanish Masses also (including our own).
This particular priest was asked by our Bishop to also say a Spanish Mass but he nicely refused saying that the people wanted this Latin Mass.

Our parish priests on the other hand (one knows Spanish) and the other doesn’t refuse to learn the Latin Mass. As a result, our parish is divided–two English Masses and two Spanish Masses on Sunday where if EVERYONE learned the TLM Mass, it would bring more unity,

That’s impressive.

On a human level, I think there is a real schism between the two groups, and as Seamus L said, the TLM afficionados are devoted to the TLM Mass, not the parish.

 

[pnewton]

We Traditional Catholics are in church to hear the TLM and not the NO. If the TLM is discontinued in the parish we attend, we’ll simply (or maybe not so simply) go where they do have it. I have no desire to be rude to anyone, but I have no wish to have an exchange of ideas with people who support having altar girls, lay people as readers, cheesy modern hymns etc.

I am floored by this post. Yes, if the people who attend the TLM felt like this, it would be hard for them to co-exist with others in peace. I know of no parish that is this monolithic.

 

[snowbee]

===================================
Are the proponents of the Latin Mass mostly older people? Maybe Catholicism will end up like Judaism, with Orthodox and Reform Catholics, that may be a good thing actually.

I am a young catechist, 20’s, and I am now seeking the EF mass in my diocese. I plan to go for the first time next week. I’ve been a EMHC in my parish for a year now and the irreverence that people approach the Eucharist floors me. I’ve been doing my research found notable differences in the Mass between the EF and OF.
OF, Mass seems more about the people, lay people lector, priest with back to Eucharist in tabernacle, people wearing anything (or really, practically nothing), grabbing His Body as if it’s a cracker…
Totally opposite I’m finding in the EF Mass. The more I’m researching the EF mass, the more I see a clearer meaning in Holy Orders, and it’s easy to see how we have such a shortage of priests with the OF mass…
So I’m going to go to the EF Mass soon. And if it’s all I think it’ll be I’ll be asking my pastor why we don’t offer it at our parish, as the other parish will be getting my attendance at first, then my money, then my volunteering over time I imagine.

 

[Ockham]

I am floored by this post. Yes, if the people who attend the TLM felt like this, it would be hard for them to co-exist with others in peace. I know of no parish that is this monolithic.

Why do these sentiments surprise you? Do you think all that’s important to Traditional Catholics is the Latin language? Most Traditionals I know don’t support the things listed nor things like CITH, EMHCs, the congregational love in in between the Pater Noster and Agnus Dei, priest’s back to God, Greeters, etc. The Novus Ordo has become a symbol for the misintrepreted ‘spirit of V2’ and many people in the Church don’t condone it.

 

[pnewton]

Why do these sentiments surprise you? Do you think all that’s important to Traditional Catholics is the Latin language? Most Traditionals I know don’t support the things listed nor things like CITH, EMHCs, the congregational love in in between the Pater Noster and Agnus Dei, priest’s back to God, Greeters, etc. The Novus Ordo has become a symbol for the misintrepreted ‘spirit of V2’ and many people in the Church don’t condone it.

I understand this. It is the next step of saying that one has no wish to have any exchange of ideas with the vast majority of Catholics for no better reason than they are following the leadership of the Church. Even most Protestants don’t so far as to give Catholics the snub like this. Perhaps the post came across with greater snobbery than intended, but he seems to want separation from one’s Catholic brothers and sisters over these issues.

 

[angelic06]

I’m not too eager to insert myself into more TLM/NO squabbling, and I know this is not the same thing as the TLM/NO debate, but may I offer my own experiences from attending an Anglican Use (AU) parish so as to offer a possibility as to how the TLM worshippers, only, crowd, and the NO worshippers, only, crowd can intermingle under the same roof?

After all, a principle in canon law is that when no law exists for a particular situation, recourse is made to parallel passages in law. So let’s borrow a principle from the canonists, shall we, to see if we can’t have similar experiences?

At my church, we have a 7:30 am, 9 am, and 11 am Masses said in the AU form. At 6 pm, we have Mass said in Latin according to the Ordinary Form (OF) of the Roman Church (yes, it is the exact same Mass said in most other Roman Catholic Churches across the globe). Now, for the chief solemnities of the Latin Church, Mass is sung according to the AU Form, but the Schola Cantorum from the OF Mass gets to sing, in Latin, on these occasions. In addition, we have Solemn Choral Evensong (as opposed to Latin Vespers) sung according to the AU Form on the occasion of the Solemnity of All Souls, but the Schola Cantorum gets their say, or rather their sing, at the Evensong. That being said, during Advent, the Schola gets to sing Latin Compline. In this way, all the people of parish get to experience the richness of the Latin Church. And needless to say, all the worshippers share the same parish gatherings, scripture study (there is only 1 Gospel, right?), etc. Speaking for myself, while I sing for the 11 am Mass, I occasionally go to the 6 pm one as well.

While I have never been to a TLM Mass in person, I’ve seen video clips of it, and appreciate the beauty of it. Therefore, in short, yes, I think it is possible for TLMers and NOers to intermingle in the same parish, and I humbly offer my own experience at an AU parish as a parallel to how such a TLM/NO parish might be like.

Issues like female ordination and other forms of heresy should not be in ANY parish which believes that Pope Benedict XVI is true Vicar of our Lord Jesus Christ, so if you have that in your church, you have have even more serious problems to deal with—these are not intrinsic to the NO parishes, nor, am I completely (I have a gut feeling on this, no proof, but just a gut feeling) convinced that the TLMers are fully absent of them.

Remember that the external form of worship (as long as it is approved by the competent authorities, namely the Holy Father himself for us Latins, and is done reverently) is not the substance of the Faith, but rather an expression of it. The substance of the Faith, as regards the Eucharist, is that bread and wine truly becomes for us the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of our savior Jesus Christ, who is true God and true Man, that a priest alone offers it on behalf of his fellow worshippers (“Take this…do this in memory of Me”), that all worshippers are commanded to receive it sometime by divine law (“Unless you eat…”, “If anyone shall eat of this bread…unworthily, he shall be guilty of profaning the body…”), and Christ Jesus is truly raised from the dead (bodily and spiritually, not like a ghost, or to the other extreme, like a zombie), otherwise all of this would be in vain (St. Paul: “If Christ is not raised from the dead, you are still in your sins” and consequently, the Mass could not remit them.) .

It is important for all Catholics to see a variety of legitimate and reverent expressions of the Faith, for then we see that the command was universally (as opposed to regionally) given to the Church to baptize all nations

In nomine Patris et Filii + et Spiritus Sancti, teaching all that was commanded.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

I understand this. It is the next step of saying that one has no wish to have any exchange of ideas with the vast majority of Catholics for no better reason than they are following the leadership of the Church. Even most Protestants don’t so far as to give Catholics the snub like this. Perhaps the post came across with greater snobbery than intended, but he seems to want separation from one’s Catholic brothers and sisters over these issues.

Well, actually, they are not. What today is the norm is very often liturgical abuse
Leadership is very much in favour of reverent celebration of the Mass. (If you consider leadership to be BVXI.) His ‘Spirit of the Liturgy’ is a wonderful book that explains in a clear way why Mass ought to be celebrated in a certain way and what is behind certain customs.

As for separation of Catholic brothers and sisters, I believe it’s time we all adhere to the Church teaching and follow our leadership

 

[Ockham]

I understand this. It is the next step of saying that one has no wish to have any exchange of ideas with the vast majority of Catholics for no better reason than they are following the leadership of the Church. Even most Protestants don’t so far as to give Catholics the snub like this. Perhaps the post came across with greater snobbery than intended, but he seems to want separation from one’s Catholic brothers and sisters over these issues.

Perhaps you are right. Seamus, could you clarify your intentions please? It would be nice if we Traditionals could articulate why the factors indicated are not appropriate to the liturgy.

 

[TheDoctor]

We Traditional Catholics are in church to hear the TLM and not the NO. If the TLM is discontinued in the parish we attend, we’ll simply (or maybe not so simply) go where they do have it. I have no desire to be rude to anyone, but I have no wish to have an exchange of ideas with people who support having altar girls, lay people as readers, cheesy modern hymns etc.

Wow. Just wow. :nope: :

• You should be careful of your shoulder lifting that wide brush and painting all Traditional Catholics with your ideas. I think you are in a smaller group than you believe.
• As a fellow part of the Body of Christ, I’ll just pray for you and leave it there.

 

[Brendan]

Third, there are liberal change agents in many parishes with a hidden agenda of things like female ordination, married priests, divorce, etc. They will work ferverently against traditional Catholics and see the TLM as a thread to their progress. IMHO the ideal is separate parishes.

First of all, that is not the model proposed by Pope Benedict in S.P. He correctly notes that a group of parishioners have the liturgical right to request the EF from their pastor. Pope Benedict does not tell them to change parishes.

Secondly, on the agents of change. If a OF pastor (like mine) sees enough value in the EF as to get trained and add such a Mass to the Sunday schedule, how much ‘traction’ do you think promoters of female ordination will get. Especially since our parishes like ours have generally had things like Communion at the Rail offered by clergy alone, and a male only altar boy cadre. The ‘agents of change’ you describe tend not to stick around parishes like ours

 

[ies0716]

As someone who attends both TLM and NO (both celebrated Ad Orientem in Latin with no communion on the hand or Extraordinary Ministers of Communion), I would caution traditionalist Catholics to not paint the NO world with such a broad brush. I was first converted to Christ and grew strong in my faith through the charismatic Catholic movement and went to Daily Mass at a series of solid NO parishes. I worked on the leadership team of a TEC center in Minnesota and we were very strict about only allowing boys to be altar servers and keeping the Extraordinary Ministers to a minimum. Many priests in my Archdiocese are committed to restoring traditional discipline in the NO Mass despite the fact that many of them have never said a TLM. This isn’t 1975; there are a lot of solid young priests and laity who are striving to restore a sense of mystery and reverence to the NO Mass. While I would agree that the liturgy as a whole needs to move a long ways back in the direction of the TLM, I wouldn’t discount the ideas of those formed by the NO Mass as irrelevant. Over 90% of Catholics in the world attend the NO Mass exclusively, so they are going to have to be a large part of the ongoing renewal.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

As someone who attends both TLM and NO (both celebrated Ad Orientem in Latin with no communion on the hand or Extraordinary Ministers of Communion), I would caution traditionalist Catholics to not paint the NO world with such a broad brush. I was first converted to Christ and grew strong in my faith through the charismatic Catholic movement and went to Daily Mass at a series of solid NO parishes. I worked on the leadership team of a TEC center in Minnesota and we were very strict about only allowing boys to be altar servers and keeping the Extraordinary Ministers to a minimum. Many priests in my Archdiocese are committed to restoring traditional discipline in the NO Mass despite the fact that many of them have never said a TLM. This isn’t 1975; there are a lot of solid young priests and laity who are striving to restore a sense of mystery and reverence to the NO Mass. While I would agree that the liturgy as a whole needs to move a long ways back in the direction of the TLM, I wouldn’t discount the ideas of those formed by the NO Mass as irrelevant. Over 90% of Catholics in the world attend the NO Mass exclusively, so they are going to have to be a large part of the ongoing renewal.

Wow! I’m seriously impressed. I’ve never been to such an NO Mass or know people who have. I started to believe that it’s a myth. Glad to hear that there are parishes out there who celebrate it the way it should be done. Indeed, it’s not 1975 . But unfortunately, where I live, many people seem to be stuck in that era

 

[Layman]

“Exchange of ideas”? What ideas?

I just want a Mass that hasn’t been ‘personalised’ according to fashion or the preferences of the participants.

i.e. I want a TLM or failing that, an N.O. done according to the rubrics and the wishes of the Vat. II council.

I fear local modifications.

 

[pnewton]

Well, actually, they are not. What today is the norm is very often liturgical abuse
Leadership is very much in favour of reverent celebration of the Mass. (If you consider leadership to be BVXI.) His ‘Spirit of the Liturgy’ is a wonderful book that explains in a clear way why Mass ought to be celebrated in a certain way and what is behind certain customs.

As for separation of Catholic brothers and sisters, I believe it’s time we all adhere to the Church teaching and follow our leadership

Pretty much all the issues mentioned earlier are not liturgical abuse. And the leadership of the Church is more than the Holy Father. It is also the Curia, that assists him directly, and more to the point, the bishop who has authority over the diocese, and the USCCB, as a group. I agree with yo about Spirit of the Liturgy, though. It is must reading for anyone involved in liturgy. I note that the Holy Father is a big fan of ad orientem and explains the meaning of it very well. I also note that he has not *yet *instituted this change as required. Therefore, Catholics (including the bishops) are following his leadership, as long as they obey if an when such a change is made.

 

[ies0716]

Wow! I’m seriously impressed. I’ve never been to such an NO Mass or know people who have. I started to believe that it’s a myth. Glad to hear that there are parishes out there who celebrate it the way it should be done. Indeed, it’s not 1975 . But unfortunately, where I live, many people seem to be stuck in that era

Here’s some more background info on my parish (St. Agnes in St. Paul, MN):

ad2000.com.au/articles/2006/feb2006p8_2144.html

Monsignor Bandas was the pastor immediately after Vatican II and he ensured that its directives were implemented as the council actually intended. His successor, Monsignor Schuler, oversaw the transition to the NO Mass and built up one of the best liturgical music programs in the world. St. Agnes was a strictly NO parish until 2007, when the new pastor (Fr. Ubel) brought back the EF Form in the 1st, 3rd, and 5th Sundays of each month. On the 2nd and 4th Sundays the EF Form is replaced with a NO Latin High Mass. It’s an amazing parish and we are blessed to belong to it!

stagnes.net/

 

[JRKH]

Not only can they co-exist, but eventually they will…
God has willed it so through His Church…

Peace
James

 

[Ockham]

Here’s some more background info on my parish (St. Agnes in St. Paul, MN):

You and your fellow parishioners are very blessed. Sadly in most OF parishes I’ve seen informality and creativity are more central than reverence and sacrifice. Perhaps our Holy Father unshackled the EF in order to reverse the ‘spirit of V2’ course we’ve been on these past forty years.

 

[ies0716]

You and your fellow parishioners are very blessed. Sadly in most OF parishes I’ve seen informality and creativity are more central than reverence and sacrifice. Perhaps our Holy Father unshackled the EF in order to reverse the ‘spirit of V2’ course we’ve been on these past forty years.

I agree. Looking at the postings on here, it’s amazing how much the celebration of the Mass varies from parish to parish and diocese to diocese. St. Paul/Minneapolis is actually doing pretty well, first under Archbishop Flynn and now Archbishop Nienstedt. I lived in the Archdiocese of Cincinnati for a few years and things there were definitely a lot worse. My hope is that as the “Spirit of Vatican II” priests and bishops retire, their younger and more orthodox brethren will rise up and lead a true renewal in the Church. Only 15 years ago,St. Paul/Minneapolis had an extremely liberal archbishop in John Roach and we had a lot of problems. I don’t think anyone could have predicted back then that 15 years later we’d have the greatest concentration of parishes with Perpetual Adoration in the world and the second-highest number of yearly priestly vocations in the country! This gives me hope for the more “questionable” dioceses as well.