Thinking about abandoning Rome

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Madaglan

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I’m 22, a cradle Catholic and for a long time I’ve never really cared about my Catholic Faith. I didn’t really learn anything from CCD, and for about two yearsI didn’t even go to church on Sunday. About five years ago I actually read the Bible in context for the first time in my life. Suddenly I started becoming a lot more interested in my faith. I started attending church again with my dad, and I even delved into the works of the Apostolic Fathers. Last year I went to confession for the first time in eight years; and I have been going at least once a month ever since.

However, recent experiences are causing me to reconsider my Roman Catholic faith. In the past few years at college my best friends have been evangelicals. Many don’t even live on campus, but the ones who do I talk with a lot. My evangelical friends are extremely knowledgeable of the Bible, and one of my friends is an absolute genius who plans on attending an ivy-league university for grad school. Anyhow, they are all very devout in their faith, and they live moral lives so far as I can tell. Despite my high opinion of their religious devotion, their attempts to bring me to the evangelical faith has proved fruitless. Their beliefs are contrary to those of the early Church, and I see sola scriptura as infeasible. Nevertheless, their faith seems less legalistic than that of the Roman Catholic Church; and this I admire in them.

Anyhow, I have also made two Orthodox friends. Both these Orthodox friends are converts: one from the Anglican Church, the other from a Baptist church. In discussing Church history and the Church Fathers I am beginning to challenge my own interpretations of the Fathers. Orthodox views that really challenge my own Roman Catholic views concern two issues: the universal authority of the pope and the filioque. By seeing these two issues from a different angle, I am beginning to see the Roman Catholic defense of these (especially the idea of universal Papal authority) as somewhat suspect.

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In any case, I am still studying the theological and historical differences. At this point, however, I am honestly having difficulties accepting the Catholic Church’s claims.

What presently is pulling me more away from the Catholic Church than anything else is my personal experience with the Church. I have no doubt that there are pious Catholics who love Christ and commit their lives to him (many of you reading this are a testament to this), but in all my years as a Catholic I have had negative experiences with church and other Catholics. I have yet to personally find one Catholic who really wants to learn more about his or her faith. Most of the Catholics I personally know act little different from secular society. I thought that in joining Newman Club here on campus I’d find someone with whom I could learn more about Christ and the Church; but I am dissapointed in discovering that the priest believes he’s going to hell, and that nobody else really wants to read the Bible or learn about the Church Fathers at club meetings.

I’m also having problems with The Mass. I believe in the Real Presence, but when I go to mass everything is so bland, and I have a difficult time in prayer when at mass. Even the hymns are not very uplifting. I want to come closer to God, but the mass prohibits me from doing so. I also am having difficulties with recent changes to the liturgy–i.e. now singing the Our Father, singing the Lamb of God prayer, etc. I just don’t fit in. Oftentimes I ask God when reciting the Creed, “What does it really mean to believe in these things?” and “Do I truly believe everything that is in the Creed?” I often find myself wandering away from the liturgical prayers and engaging in private talks with God.

Anyhow, I started attending a Charistmatic prayer group in the hope that I would find individuals who desire to draw themselves into a closer relationship with God through prayer and thanksgiving. I find the group pleasant and caring, but I believe it is overcharged with emotionalism; and oftentimes I discern evangelical heresies in its midst–such as using the term “Born Again” in reference to the Baptism of the Spirit.

So, I’m thinking about converting to Orthodoxy–in other words, abandoning Rome to join the Catholic Church. Deep down I have a deep desire to join religious life; but I also have a deep desire to marry. For a long time I have been tormented by these contradicting desires, even after asking God to squelch one or the other depending on His will. I haven’t finalized my decision, but I am very much leaning in the direction of Orthodoxy. I’ll keep everyone posted on further developments. If anyone can think of a reason why I should remain a Roman Catholic (Or even a Traditional Catholic) I would be happy to hear. I mean no offense by this post, so please don’t take any. Just having difficulties with Roman Catholicism. My sister had similiar problems last year (although less on historical or theological grounds); and she left the church to become Evangelical-free Baptist. I don’t think I’ll go that far, but I am having problems.
 
One flock, one shepherd?

A really good book to read is Liturgy and Personality by Dietrich Von Hildebrand available through Sophia Institute Press unless it’s out of print. It helps one to give more to the mass.

I strongly encourage people to go to weekday masses. More frequent reception of the sacraments is very beneficial. The worship you give makes all the difference.

Consider in your heart that there is some spiritual reason why the Pauline rite exists, that we cannot fully understand, but that deserves our implicit support. If you give it fuller worship and go during the week as well, I think your problem may be solved.

Don’t rely entirely on the mass. Practice contemplation and lectio divina. Show up early for mass and do these things. Make your daily prayer time 1.5 hours instead of 0.5 hours.

Your Protestant friends are irrelevant in the following sense: They seem faithful, but consider the errors in their thinking. Consider how those errors are obvious in the light of Catholicism. Then, recognize that their air of religious devotion is actually contrived to supplement what is lacking not in Christ, but in their knowledge. This is how such people seem to me.

And don’t think about “abandoning Rome”: God can neither deceive nor be deceived; how could Rome not be the center of the Church? It’s unthinkable.

May God bless you.
 
May I suggest you read on the Saints.They went by obedience and not feelings. I am a convert to the Catholic Faith and I love to learn about Our Faith. I noticed that alot of cradle Catholics didn’t really know much or even seem to care, it was a downer. But, upon reflection,I realised God brought me here and why am I expecting to get or preserve my faith from others.Have you ever thought maybe the Lord would like to use you to help people appreciate their Faith and seek to come closer to God? Make a retreat to Irondale,Al. and talk to one of them. God Bless you and I’ll be praying for you:gopray:
 
You need to transfer to the Franciscan University of Steubenville (in Ohio). Check out Franciscan.edu

You will find everything you desire there. Catholics on fire with their faith, the Truth in all its fullness, great music, great masses that will just give you tingles all over. If you just can’t transfer to the school then you absolutely must attend a summer conference. Try the young adult conference or the defending the faith conference. You will not be disappointed and you will kick yourself for having not gone there sooner.

Don’t leave the church. You are in the One True Church. Christ promised us an apolostolic Church. He never said it would be of perfect health.
 
Originally Quoted by FrmrTrad:
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I strongly encourage people to go to weekday masses. More frequent reception of the sacraments is very beneficial. The worship you give makes all the difference.
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Consider in your heart that there is some spiritual reason why the Pauline rite exists, that we cannot fully understand, but that deserves our implicit support. If you give it fuller worship and go during the week as well, I think your problem may be solved.
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Not to rub it in or anything, but over the summer I did for several months attend daily mass 3-4 times a week. The building in which I worked was only two blocks away from the cathedral. I went to mass during my lunch breaks. However, I did not get a whole lot out of it, and I think that contributes to why I’m having problems.

As I stated in my post, there are other issues that presently bother me–the biggest issue being the papacy and the hierarchal Church structure. It just doesn’t fit well with what I come across in Eusebius’ histories, in which the bishops as a whole are described as having Church authority. Back then, when one was unsure of an article of faith, one might ask, “What does my bishop have to say about that?” Nowadays it seems that all heads are turned towards Rome. Instead of the individual sees in themselves and amonst one another having authority on matters of faith, it is the pope and a select group of cardinals in Rome who decide what distant bishops must follow. Anyhow, I’m going to look into that a little more deeply, and perhaps I’ll reread Eusebius, since it’s been a year since I read him last.
 
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Madaglan:
I did not get a whole lot out of it,
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It’s important to give, and I don’t mean to imply that you’re not trying to give. Look into contemplation and lectio divina when you have time. Look into Carmelite spirituality. Also don’t forget that there are Eastern Catholic churches you can explore.
Nowadays it seems that all heads are turned towards Rome.
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I think they were then, too, but communications were much slower. Now Rome has easy contact with all parts of the Church except perhaps for some remote missions.

Also, see if you can snag a copy of the three-volume set by Fr. Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers.
 
Originally Quoted by FrmrTrad:

Look into Carmelite spirituality. Also don’t forget that there are Eastern Catholic churches you can explore.
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What are the defining characteristics of Carmelite spirituality? I know a priest who is a secular Carmelite (or something to that effect.) Maybe I’ll ask him.
 
Madagan,
I am much older than you. Nothing I say will make any difference. But I feel a duty to mention some things to you.

What you originally wrote almost patterns my life. I think you had poor Chatecisis as a boy. I know you dont learn much at Mass just watching. I suggest you get a Saint Joseph’s Daily Missal to help you know exactly whats going on at Mass. And have a time set aside daily in which you pray, and do some prayer as if you were talking to a friend, free-form prayer.

Those Evangelicals do not have The Real Presence, they don’t have true interpretation (Magesterium). Look them up in 2 or 3 years, see where they are.

It is common for young people to rebel, but to rebel against Rome is not recommended…you cant win.

Sometimes for years I am mad at our priest, I don’t like the Mass in English and I hate the songs…but look, I have the Real Presence and a real blessing. That is better than any other Church. The Catholic Church is the one started by JESUS. All the others were started by men.
 
Originally Quoted by St. Catherine:
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You will find everything you desire there. Catholics on fire with their faith, the Truth in all its fullness, great music, great masses that will just give you tingles all over. If you just can’t transfer to the school then you absolutely must attend a summer conference. Try the young adult conference or the defending the faith conference. You will not be disappointed and you will kick yourself for having not gone there sooner.
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Yeah, I have thought about attending a summer conference. Right now I go to college in an area that is predominately Protestant. Most of the churches around here are Methodist, Lutheran, Baptist, Presbyterian and Mennonite. I also go to college in the Amish capital–Lancaster, PA. Not a really strong Catholic atmosphere here, unfortunately.
 
Originally Quoted by Exporter:

Those Evangelicals do not have The Real Presence, they don’t have true interpretation (Magesterium). Look them up in 2 or 3 years, see where they are.

It is common for young people to rebel, but to rebel against Rome is not recommended…you cant win.

Sometimes for years I am mad at our priest, I don’t like the Mass in English and I hate the songs…but look, I have the Real Presence and a real blessing. That is better than any other Church. The Catholic Church is the one started by JESUS. All the others were started by men.
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For the most part I believe that the evangelicals have a false interpretation of the Truth. However, I am a little disconcerted about the religious “born again” experiences they claim to have. If it is truly the Holy Spirit working in their lives that leads them to believe that they are saved, then what does it say about how God feels about evangelical beliefs? Why have I as a Catholic never truly experienced God’s actual presence inside of me? These are some questions I ask myself.

Concerning the Roman Catholic Church as the one church established by Christ: how do I know this? If one is born into a family that practices Islam a Middle Eastern country, it is likely that you will be told that Jesus was simply a prophet, that the Christians misinterpretted Jesus, and that the only true way to heaven is to submit oneself to sole, non-Trinitarian God. Perspective matters a lot. In looking at the Roman Catholic Church from different perspective, I am beginning to see that it **might not **be the one, true, holy and apostolic Church. The Orthodox Church especially claims to be the only true Catholic Church.

I promise you that I will not rebel against Rome unless I discover that she herself is a rebel.
 
I did not get a whole lot out of it
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This might also be the problem. I so often hear this from those who abandon their faith. There is a common misunderstanding that we go to mass to get something out of it. We go to mass to give glory to God. It’s really not about us. This might be the element you are missing and chances are you won’t be happy anywhere else either.
 
You are not alone, I felt pretty much the same way when I was at University up to my mid 30’s. Read Home Sweet Rome by Scott Hahn it just might save you all the pain I had experienced.

God Bless

PS I’ll pray for you
 
Originally Quoted by Bear06:

This might also be the problem. I so often hear this from those who abandon their faith. There is a common misunderstanding that we go to mass to get something out of it. We go to mass to give glory to God. It’s really not about us. This might be the element you are missing and chances are you won’t be happy anywhere else either.
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Of course we go to mass to give glory to God. However, my problem is not so much in what I receive following the mass–such a sense of euphoria, joy, or whatever–so much as it is being able to experience the conditions necessary for me to openly express my praise to God, and to come into closer communion with Him through contrite prayer. In other words, I have problems with the structure by which we give glory to God. Everything is pre-planned for the congregation to say; and the liturgy is read so rapidly that there is little time for contemplation in between prayers. In other words, my experience is that we have enough time to speak the words with our tongues but not enough time to speak with our whole being. I think that’s really the core issue. When I go to mass I do not feel as though I’m praying, but rather that I am only going through a rapid-fire routine. I wish that there were a greater number of pauses interspersed throughout the liturgy. Then I could actually pray. That is what I really want to get from going to mass: the fulfilling opportunity of coming into a closer relationship with God. Does that make sense to everyone?

Thank you for all your prayers.
 
Magdalen,

You sense that you are not getting much out of the Mass. This may seem simplistic advice, but are you praying for a sense of awe and wonder? Try asking the Holy Spirit to enliven your experience of the Mass, to make it vibrant for you. Ask the Blessed Mother to loan you her heart during Mass, and to experience the coming of her Son as she always does: with great longing and joy. Remember that you are in the presence of all the saints and angels in heaven, participating in their unending praise of God.

Do you have a devotion to Mary? If not, try to cultivate a relationship with her. She will always lead you to her Son. I find it is more difficult to be lukewarm about the Church when you are in an active ‘friendship’ with the Mother of the Church.

Don’t give up. This is just a season in your life, and possibly a test of your committment and loyalty. Be patient, continue to study, pray (a lot!), and wait with hope. Ask our Lord to show you what is true.
 
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Madaglan:
My evangelical friends are extremely knowledgeable of the Bible, and one of my friends is an absolute genius who plans on attending an ivy-league university for grad school.
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You mean he may have the cunning of the devil.
Nevertheless, their faith seems less legalistic than that of the Roman Catholic Church; and this I admire in them.
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It is less legalistic, thats why people are attracted to other faiths because for some if you don’t like the way the game is going, move the goal posts.

Anyway It seems like your discontented, i’m not convinced you will be happy in another place of worship.
A few weeks ago a priest on visit here from Australia said, “don’t be armchair Catholics, don’t think we can go to Mass once a week and then forget about God the rest of the week” (Sunday morning Christians)

What I’ve started to do myself is walk the 2 miles to the Catholic Church and sit in front of the Tabernacle with Jesus, saying the Rosary.(so it has a two fold effect of keeping my body and soul healthy)
Also we need quiet contempletive prayer, and if we can’t find anywords to say just sit in the presence of God, (be still and know that I am God)

I’ve read a lot of books about the lives of the saints, and most of them experienced what is known as dryness of prayer, but it didn’t make them want to look for Jesus in another Church.

I play guitar and keyboards, for my sins 😉 anyway a lot of Catholics including my own sisters about 15 years ago decided to join another Church.

They were all caught up in this saved, I saw the light message, one person asked me to play guitar at one of their services, I refused, (a foot in both camps not for me)

So here we had 3 of my sisters and their friends going to this Sunday service for quite awhile.
Next fruit of their great conversion was,one of my sisters fell out with her best friend, her husband of 45 had an affair with a 19 year old, now they have a baby together and the family is split.
My brother inlaw that too saw the light, doesn’t go anywhere now.
One of my sisters has stopped going to any Church, only one of the original people has stayed.
Also there were others that decided to give these other Churches a try, but now I see them back at Mass again.

Anyway if we build our houses on sand, when the rains come it will be washed away, in other words if we don’t have a strong faith, we will become easy prey for these so called born again Christians.

As for me I’m unmovable, I’m with the rock until the day I die, come hell or high water.

I know the Orthadox are very like the Catholic Church, but whatever way you decide I hope you find God and not be like some of those people up above, caught up in the hysteria of the moment.
 
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Madaglan:
but when I go to mass everything is so bland, and I have a difficult time in prayer when at mass. Even the hymns are not very uplifting.
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Would you have found the Last Supper to be less bland? Were the hymns there more uplifiting?

How about Mass in the Roman Catacombs?

The Mass is about Faith, not Feelings.

Also, about Papal Primacy.

Christ gives the Keys to Heaven to one apostle, and one apostle only.

Christ gives the authority to bind and loose to the Apostles in General ( Infallibility of Councils) and to Peter specifically ( Infalliblily of Peter)

Christ told one apostle and one apostle only to Rule My Sheep ( yes the Greek word there is ‘Rule’ not “Tend”)

Christ built his Church on the Rock of Peter, not Andrew.
 
Mad,

I am a broken record on this: The Orthodox have Apostolic Succession. But if Peter is not in your house of bishops, you are missing the centerpiece chosen by Christ himself.

They do not have anything that is not encompassed by the Catholic Church. The beautiful spirituality, liturgy, and ethnic cohesiveness are all found in the Byzantine Churches in communion with Rome.
 
I pray that you reconsider. I left a couple of times, but the Spirit of God managed to draw me back. If you do leave, and I hope that you don’t, I pray that the Spirit of God will draw you back again when you are ready.
 
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