Thinking about abandoning Rome

  • Thread starter Thread starter Madaglan
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
The problem in my opinion is that we, many times are like John the Baptist, we are alone, and we have to be very well versed in the faith, , very strong in our convictions and many things more, the orthodoxy is a faith with very well liturgy, but is schismatic, Jesus say that he builds in Peter his Church, not a lot like the orthodoxy, the orthodoxy acept too the anticonceptives and preservative like the protestants in 1930.
Madalan, my advice is that if you need more religion, you have to ask you if you have vocation for being a monk or a priest and if you want to marry a deacon, and try to have catholics faithful friends because it´s very hard be alone. I pray for you, I have only 21 years, but I think that your opinion is the consequence that we need more heat in the church, because we live, even in USA, in very cold societies and this is very sad and hard, I am the only young in my parish and this is hard too. Greetings
 
Dear friend

The closer a person gets to God the harder the path for many reasons, but one of them is that when faith deepens you will find at that time many attacks on what you believe, even to the very core of it.

It will remain a daily battle to maintain faith in God in His One True Catholic and Apostolic church from this point because everything malign will align itself against you to deter you. No true faith goes to heaven alone and because of this evil knows you are a severe threat. If you persevere you will see the fruit of your faith, God will use you for the good of humanity and for His Kingdom and souls will be won for God.

There is no crown without the cross and you are called to perseverance maybe even without consolation. If you desire to leave the church no-one will stop you, it has to be a choice of free will from you and between you and God. But you should know that every evil force and spirit on this earth will battle daily to remove you from Christ in the Eucharist.

Confusion, half truths and doubt is one of the greatest tools evil uses and you must battle with all of your heart, mind spirit and use the sacraments to sustain you as well as frequent conversation with Our Lord in prayer.

Run with all your might to the Blessed Scarament and ask the Holy Spirit to guide you and give you discernment.

Laugh in that old adversaries face and run to the Eucharist with all of your might!

There is nothing easy or comfortable about living in faith. It is the narrow road and a hard and long walk to Calvary with our Lord, but it is not one we do alone, we do it with Jesus right beside us and we do it in love, we do it with every Catholic alive and you, dear friend are not alone, all of heaven is there for you!

You are looking for you comfort, you are looking to be in comfort, look to feed your spirit first and then you will find comfort in any adversary or adversity.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
Magdalan wants to be ministered to by other Catholics and she is not gettign that. You can say go read a book but it is not the same. I think there are alot of Catholics that are ministering but not getting ministered too.
 
👋 Before I left Rome for Jerusalem, I went to the Eastern Catholic church. This Byzantine Catholic Church was small and very intimate. It was within the Byzantine Catholic Church that I began to see the undercurrents of Judaism. It was an Easter Sunday that I came to the conclusion that I could not be of their number. To attend this church, I would drive to another city and back to my home. It took me 6 hours total in driving not to mention the Divine Liturgy.

I was trying to hold on to what little Christianity was still in me. I drove 2 1/2 hours up 95 to DC. I attended a Russian Orthodox Church. If I named it, those from DC , would know it. Judaism jumped out at me one Sunday morning at the Divine Liturgy. I was overwhelmed. I could not stop the thoughts that so much of it was taken from Judaism. In my humble opinion, Orthodoxy has more of a Jewish undercurrent than does Catholicism.

All of this took place over some time. I just knew that I was not returning to the Catholic Church. I had been to my last Mass and I wasn’t missing it. The Divine Liturgy was over and got into my care to drive down 95 to home. As I pulled out of the parking space, I knew, in my heart, that I wasn’t going to anymore Christian services. Judaism was calling me gently and I wasn’t going to hesitate to answer. Judaism does not proselytize. Jews will tell you to stay what you are. Jews are more concerned with building up and keeping Jews. I finally went to see a Rabbi. He turned me away. I went again at a later date. He turned me away again. I went again some months later. Again, I was turned away.

That is a rule of thumb with Judaism. You are told about the rough time that Jews have and asked why would you want to become a Jew. I told the Rabbi that, as a Black American woman, what else could be thrown at me that I hadn’t already been through? He couldn’t answer that. He still didn’t take me too quickly. After a space of time, I began my reading, studying and attending services at the synagouge that I am a member of now. My Rabbi and I have talked many times and for long hours. His wisdom has been invaluable to me. He told me something that shocked me at first. He stated that every time he wanted to stop and rest from having the classes for those who wanted to convert to Judaism, he found that he couldn’t. He said that people were literally banging on the doors, begging to become Jews and begging him to help them. One day, while I was talking to him, I saw and heard with my own eyes and ears exactly what he was talking about. Judaism still calls people. Some come because of marriage and some for faith. I converted because of faith. I have never been married but you never know…

Think long and hard. I did and I have no regrets. But I went through so many things that I have never spoken of to anyone. It was something that was coming on for many years.

Pray, read, ask questions, think, talk to people who have left the Church and those who decided to stay. Talk to the pros and the cons. I did. My soul found its home in Judaism. My journey turned out fine for me.

Bat-Ami
 
There was a time when I felt I needed to “get something” out of mass - I found it rather dull.

Through the years God has drawn me closer to the truth of Jesus’s Real Presence in the eucharist.
I don’t go to mass with that attitude anymore.
A relationship with God is also about giving.
(Ask not what your church can do for you, ask what you can do for your church 🙂 )

So now…no matter how “good” or “bad” a mass is - I do my best to meditate on the readings - on the psalm.
I listen as best as I can to the homily.
But most of all, when I receive - I try to comprehend as best as I can the great mystery and miracle of Jesus giving Himself to us in the eucharist.

So…even if the music is bad or the preaching is bad…nothing can overshadow the presence of Jesus in my body and soul.
 
Hi Madaglan,

As an antidote to what your Orthodox friends are telling you, try reading “Upon this Rock” by Steven Ray. It is chock-full of Scripture, Old and New, and the Church Fathers, with heaps of commentary. It will open your eyes. Also, try anything by Bishop Fulton Sheen.

Blessings,
Gene
 
Please don’t leave!
I am a non-Catholic (someday) who married a cradle Catholic who is learning with me. I am planning on becomming Catholic

I would try to learn as much as possible and involve myself as much as possible before leaving. If you still think something else would fit you better make sure you learn as much about that as you can first. Some things seem like they would be a perfect fit until you learn more.

If you can find another parish with nicer people that makes you happier, attend there. If you don’t know that many real Catholics, be one for yourself and try to lead others. Some people might be hiding to avoid ridicule.
Good Luck
Kat
 
I haven’t read all the other posts. No doubt you’ve had some good answers. I would like to offer some insights you may not know about.
  1. After Mass late 19th century Pope Leo XIII had a vision in which he heard God give Satan the 20th century as a time of testing for humanity. It was after this that he composed the great St Michael the Archangel prayer and asked that it be said at the end of every Mass.
  2. You should read the revelations made at Fatima again. They are still unfolding.
    You cannot deny that the 20th century was one hell of a test for humanity.
    The thing is that our common enemy has been given a pretty good run. I read an article by the current Pope a month or so ago, in which he says that the devil is working furiously right now because he knows that the world is on the verge of an era of freedom from evil. How he got this insight I don’t know.
    You need to really think hard before leaving the Church. Why has there been so many divisions in the Orthodox Church’s? It’s because they have no head, like the Pope.
    It’s sad to see so many lukewarm Catholics. We need good and knowledgeable Catholics like you to reevangelise the baptised.
    Don’t be scandalised by others. Things are going to start improving in the Church. The long period of peace talked about at Fatima may be about to start. There has been trouble in the Church since Apostolic times. It’s nothing new. Ask God what He wants. And pray on it for a long time before making any big decisions.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon14.gif
 
I agree, things will get better in the Church, and that things will never be perfect and they never were. Have hope that things will get better and that you will be able to bring about that change. If we lose you it will take that much longer to make things better and strengthen all those weak catholics that we all know about. Please have Faith. Please don’t leave the Church.
 
There is plenty of evidence in the Fathers for Petrine Primacy. I think you will also find plenty of problems in Orthodoxy. I would suggest further study and getting some spiritual direction before you make any move.
 
the only thing we have left is the church, no matter how much its going downhill. we have to stick with it and hope for jesus’ secpond coming.
 
Something I forgot to mention. Find a very orthodox Catholic apostolate, and get involved. I, personally, have been excused from going through the trials your going through. When I came back to the Church 16 yrs ago I attended a parish with a very holy and knowledgeable priest. And got involved with Opus Dei. Opus Dei is very big on personal sanctification, spiritual and doctrinal formation, study of sacred scripture, apostolate etc etc.
All the Catholics I got to know were often daily mass goers who did a lot of study of the faith and apostolate.
Why don’t you try opus Dei? If you want to meet Christians who struggle to practise the faith with the spirit of the first Christians then give it a go. And your in my prayers.
 
Bat-Ami said:
👋 Before I left Rome for Jerusalem, I went to the Eastern Catholic church. This Byzantine Catholic Church was small and very intimate. It was within the Byzantine Catholic Church that I began to see the undercurrents of Judaism. It was an Easter Sunday that I came to the conclusion that I could not be of their number. To attend this church, I would drive to another city and back to my home. It took me 6 hours total in driving not to mention the Divine Liturgy.

I was trying to hold on to what little Christianity was still in me. I drove 2 1/2 hours up 95 to DC. I attended a Russian Orthodox Church. If I named it, those from DC , would know it. Judaism jumped out at me one Sunday morning at the Divine Liturgy. I was overwhelmed. I could not stop the thoughts that so much of it was taken from Judaism. In my humble opinion, Orthodoxy has more of a Jewish undercurrent than does Catholicism.

All of this took place over some time. I just knew that I was not returning to the Catholic Church. I had been to my last Mass and I wasn’t missing it. The Divine Liturgy was over and got into my care to drive down 95 to home. As I pulled out of the parking space, I knew, in my heart, that I wasn’t going to anymore Christian services.
Bat-Ami
Click to expand...

I dont understand this. So you threw Jesus in the trash? Im not meaning to go at you, I just dont get it. The Jews are an exclusive group, chosen by God, not man’s choice. God doesnt call people to be Jews, they were already chosen a long time ago. I went through a similar time of doubt a few months back, I thought that there were a lot of passages in the OT that suggested God didnt care about the rest of the world, only the Jews. I really struggled, but I finally broke through. Jesus told us how to do the will of His Father, that is to be Christ imitators, i.e. Christians. The root of your error is thinking that converting is going to fix that link between Gentile and God. The simple truth is that all we (Gentiles) know about God came through His Son Jesus, to convert to Judaism is misunderstanding your role that God gave you. They are a special group that doesnt make sense to convert to, God chose them and has been with them since ever, when we make ourselves Jews we are imposing our will on God. Judaism is in the blood, a special race of their own, a culture and mindset you can only know by being born into from Jewish parents.
When you point out the so called “Jewish undercurrents” I dont see what was wrong. Christ was a Jew as were the apostles. Judaism is the foundation of Christianity, but it only works one direction. We arent supposed to go from Christian to Jew that is a sin in God’s great plan. It seems like all you wanted was a respectful worship service with as much history behind it as possible. The OT and NT work together in harmony, even though at first it might not look like it. Both were inspired by God. Both work toward man’s ultimate return to God.
So if you dont mind me asking, why did you leave the CC? Is there a passage you read that did it for you or something? What was missing in your old life?
 
Madaglan,

You have a substantial list of complaints concerning the Church and your experience with Catholics. Now let’s suppose that we could legitimately add a number of other bothersome issues to your list and one of them was enough to push you over the edge and out the door of the Roman Catholic Church. None of the reasons including the ones you listed will justify the departure.

Our Church is made up of people and we are all sinners. Unfortunately, evil is running amok and has overwhelmed many of the walls and ramparts that formerly held it at bay. Relativism, sexual immorality, abortion, euthanasia, homosexulality, greed, consumerism, and every other sort of horrible sin has invaded all of our institutions. This includes every Church and denomination. None of this should matter. Each of us must be ready to die for the truth. Even if every Catholic we knew was simply horrible that would not justify leaving the Church.

Poorly presented liturgies, dull sermons, heretical priests, and such have no bearing on whether or not we should leave the Church. The Catholic church is a miracle. It is a wondrous work of Christ in our midst. Even the worst priest brings us Jesus in the Eucharist. Those Catholics that are holy and faithful are indeed suffering when faced with indifference and sinfulness within the community of faith. This is a cross that must be carried. We cannot let it get us down. You must let your light shine in the midst of this. God has planted you where you are for a reason. The question is: What are you going to do about it?

Our love of God is a choice. Our feelings mean nothing. Our love of God is everything and should motivate us to overcome. Satan’s job is easy for him in the current religious climate. We all get discouraged but God’s grace sustains us. Look for the glimmer of light that shines everywhere even in the midst of the darkness. Take heart and be part of the renewal in the Church. Leaving the Church will remove you from the process that God so wants you to be a part of.

As far as the papacy is concerned you should continue to study. Start looking for every clue that suggests that it is a proper teaching and is well grounded in scripture and tradition. The recommendation of Steve Ray’s book is a good one. Also check out Jesus, Peter, and the Keys by Butler, Dalhgren, and Hess. There are numerous other sources as well that can give you more info on what the early Church Fathers believed concerning the Bishop of Rome. You might also keep in mind that until the Schism all of the Eastern Churches were in union with Rome. I firmly believe that your study of history and scripture is incomplete when it comes to the papacy.
 
Originally Quoted by Pax:

Each of us must be ready to die for the truth. Even if every Catholic we knew was simply horrible that would not justify leaving the Church.
Click to expand...
I believe, like you, that inconveniences in the Church do not justify leaving it. I am mostly concerned about the fullness of truth, and whether it exists in the Catholic Churches or in the Orthodox Churches. I am still reading the early Church Fathers.
Originally Quoted by Pax:

You must let your light shine in the midst of this. God has planted you where you are for a reason. The question is: What are you going to do about it?
Click to expand...
I have no doubt that God has done so. However, just because one is born into one state does not mean that one must needs stay in that state. St. Elizabeth Ann Seton did not continue her works as an evangelical, but as a Catholic, since she believed that Catholicism is closer to the truth.
Originally Quoted by Pax:

Take heart and be part of the renewal in the Church. Leaving the Church will remove you from the process that God so wants you to be a part of.
Click to expand...
I will always keep my focus on God’s will for me. However, I first need to discern which church is God’s single, holy and apostolic Church–the one founded on Peter. I presently am engaged in the renewal, but I hope to ensure that the Catholic Church is consistent with the beliefs of the Church since the time of the apostles.
Originally Quoted by Pax:
As far as the papacy is concerned you should continue to study. Start looking for every clue that suggests that it is a proper teaching and is well grounded in scripture and tradition. The recommendation of Steve Ray’s book is a good one. Also check out Jesus, Peter, and the Keys by Butler, Dalhgren, and Hess. There are numerous other sources as well that can give you more info on what the early Church Fathers believed concerning the Bishop of Rome. You might also keep in mind that until the Schism all of the Eastern Churches were in union with Rome. I firmly believe that your study of history and scripture is incomplete when it comes to the papacy.
Click to expand...
I have no doubt that my study of the papacy is in some ways incomplete. However, this is not to say that I have not read books and essays on the subject. I have yet to read Jesus, Peter, and the Keys, but the book is on my to-read list. The difficulty with the papacy is discerning Primacy v. Universal Authority. There is also a difficulty in the bishop of Rome being the sole successor of the promises given to Peter. The Bishop of Rome was, for much of the first few centuries of the Christian Church, a most faithful adherer to apostolic truth. For this reason, he was held in high honor by the higher bishops. Context is an important issue.

So, yes, I will read Jesus, Peter, and the Keys, and I will study the claims made with what I have read so far. I appreciate your references.

Scripture supports the idea that Peter had a special mission, and Scripture does show him with a kind of Primacy. However, I have not been convinced that anywhere does Peter demonstrate an authority over the other apostles. I see a Primacy, but I don’t clearly see a special authority. In fact, I see quite the opposite: all twelve apostles are depicted as equal in authority.

One of the biggest questions that I have been asking myself is, can a bishop have a primacy without having an authority over the other bishops? And to tell you the truth, I believe that a primacy with the exclusion of a special authority is quite a possibility among brother Christians. Although this kind of Primacy is farily uncommon today, it can still be seen in organizations like college clubs, in which there is a president who decides when the group should meet and what activities it should discuss, but who does not normally have the authority to kick other members out of the club. Generally a club president lacks any real authority, even though he or she is a central and singular administrator of the group.

Again, thanks for your helpful post.
 
Hello Magdaglan,

I hope you do not think I am trying to scare you. I simply want to show you some scriptures of how Jesus and the Father feel about splitting His Church. From what I see you are judging whether or not to be Catholic by what Catholics do. I believe you should be praying to God as to what His will on the issue is.

In scriptures Jesus many times shows us the evil His Jewish Church leaders are up to. Still Jesus (before His death and establishing His Church on St. Peter) tells His followers that they must follow the authority God has placed in those who sit in Moses chair. Most nations, clubs, organizations, groups, ect. in the world put one person in unequaled authority over all other members. It is this authority which binds any group together when decisions are made rather than the group spliting. Jesus does not want His Church split into factions and that is why He put St. Peter above all other followers including the other eleven Apostles. Jesus wants unity in His Church and this is why He calls upon His followers to accept the authority He has established in St. Peter the succession of popes. St. Peter’s chair.

If you read Old Testament you will see God’s most tremendous wrath poured out on those who try to split His Church. www.geocities.com/athens/forum/3325/korah.html God takes great offence in those who take the authority of His Church upon themselves. This is because God wills unity in His Church.

When you stand before God on judgement day will you tell Him, “When I saw Your Church (one billion Catholics) in trouble and faltering, I left.” Or will you say, “When I saw Your Church in trouble and faltering I stood firm and did all in my human power to help Her regain Her strength.”?

NAB MAT 12:25A kingdom torn by strife is headed for its downfall. A town or household split into factions cannot last for long.

**NAB 1CO 1:10 **

I beg of you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to agree in what you say. Let there be no factions; rather, be united in mind and judgement. I have been informed, my brothers, by certian members of Chloe’s household that you are quarreling among yourselves. This is what I mean: One of you will say, “I belong to Paul,” another, “I belong to Apollos,” still another, “Cephas has my allegiance,” and the fourth, “I belong to Christ.”

**NAB MAT 23:1 **

Then Jesus told the crowds and his diciples: “The scribes and the Pharisees have succeeded Moses as teachers; therefore, do everything and observe everything they tell you. But do not follow their example.” **NAB NUM 18:1 **

The LORD said to Aaron, "You and your sons as well as the other members of you ancestral house shall be responsible for the sanctuary; but the responsibility of the priesthood shall rest on you and your sons alone. …//… 7: But only you and your sons are to have charge of performing the priestly functions in whatever concerns the altar and the room within the veil. I give you the priesthood as a gift. Any layman who draws near shall be put to death."
Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com
 
Nevertheless, their faith seems less legalistic than that of the Roman Catholic Church
Click to expand...
Ok…but Jesus said He didn’t come to do away with the Law…not one letter.
I have yet to personally find one Catholic who really wants to learn more about his or her faith.
Click to expand...
You are “talking” to one right now.
I’m also having problems with The Mass. I believe in the Real Presence, but when I go to mass everything is so bland, and I have a difficult time in prayer when at mass
Click to expand...
Try a Tridentine Mass?
 
Mad,

As a young man I can remember being discouraged about the Catholic Faith for many of the same reasons you site. To help kindle my wife’s faith, I started attending a Presbyterian church instead for the first 6 years of our marriage. I loved the music and their respect for the importance in participating in the singing. The pastor was a vary inspirational speaker. I was content until circumstances caused me to read their book of confessions and discover that although you would never hear it in a warm fuzzy sunday sermon, they really do officially teach that all non-Christians will go to hell.

I was so appalled by this teaching that I could no longer allow myself to be a witness to their version of the truth. It became imperative to for me to discover the most believable truth and to witness to it, no matter if it felt good or not; no matter what crosses it entailed. God is truth and love and love is a decision, not a feeling.

Sure, if you leave the Church, you can always come back, but you can’t later change what that witness says. You can’t un-ring that bell.

The Roman Catholic Church is a witness to the world of the importance of unity. All who abandon her serve Satan’s agenda of divide and concur.

What the pagan world needs today is to see a witness that speaks to fidelity and unity. As I look back on my past, I wish I could have been a more effective witness to these important values.

A person is a young person once. They have only once to be this witness as a young person.
 
I tell people all the time that if i had been taught the Catholic faith as i know it now, i could have and would have had a very different life - different as night and day. I was baptized Catholic as a baby & @ age 7 or so, started going to Mass on Sundays but tht was it - was not catechized.
Years ago, i studied the faith, history, etc. It blew me away how Catholic the Bible is, when i had been told, all those years in the world… by non-Catholics that the Bible wasn’t followed by the Catholic Church (etc).
You are young and that makes me understand your dilemma.
I am not so young; i have had many doubts and questions along the way myself. But whenever doubt hits me, & sometimes i still wonder about the Church (the unfriendliness, people who act like those in the world, etc), and i even think about going elsewhere (at least once in awhile), i think about the Blessed Sacrament, particularly the Exposed Sacrament. His Presence is so… beyond words that it dispels all my doubts. There is no “presence” or whatever in the world that can take His place. I feel the presence of God while out in nature, e tc., but there is no Presence like at the Exposed Sacrament.
Anyway, i pray for you.
If a person doesn’t know the Faith well, he/she can get messed around by non-Catholics (and by going to college!!).
It is hard to be a devout, outspoken Catholic because the world hates the Church… Jesus said that if the world hates Him, it will hate you. If a person cannot handle being hated, well… he can’t handle the devil and he may not make it to Heaven because fighting the devil is the very meaning of our life on this planet…
Do you pray the rosary??
It is powerful. I sometimes don’t feel like praying it (at night) but when i do anyway, i am always amazed at the blessings that come… it is supernatural. It raises us above the mundane things of this world and gives us a perspective more in tune with that of God… In fact it does enable us to see things as God does…
God bless… I pray for you…
 
You ought to read “Upon this Rock” by Steve Ray. He goes over all of the Church Fathers, in one section focusing particularly on the Eastern Fathers, to show the teachings regarding the papacy that were present in the early Church.

As far as the Filioque is concerned, it is very, very important that you look not so much at the specific words and definitions that the Fathers used about it, but rather at the concepts they are trying to convey.

For example, Roman Catholic theology has for centuries declared that Christ had two wills, whereas Oriental Orthodox theology declared Christ to have one will. Looking at the words, there was a clear disagreement. Yet the two groups have come to realize after all this time that the two sides are actually saying the same thing. They are using different language to describe it, but their meaning - the concept of Christ that they hold - is the same.

The reason that this tends to be a problem is because for some reason which I don’t understand at all, Eastern Christians often tend towards a particular sort of stubbornness when it comes to discussing theological points. I don’t want to go asserting stereotypes, it’s just something that anyone who’s interacted with them for some time can’t help but notice. It led Thomas Aquinas to say:

"Hence also the Greeks themselves recognize that the procession of the Holy Ghost has some order to the Son. For they grant that the Holy Ghost is the Spirit “of the Son”; and that He is from the Father “through the Son.” Some of them are said also to concede that “He is from the Son”; or that “He flows from the Son,” but not that He proceeds; which seems to come from ignorance or obstinacy. For a just consideration of the truth will convince anyone that the word procession is the one most commonly applied to all that denotes origin of any kind. For we use the term to describe any kind of origin; as when we say that a line proceeds from a point, a ray from the sun, a stream from a source, and likewise in everything else. Hence, granted that the Holy Ghost originates in any way from the Son, we can conclude that the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Son. "

I really recommend you read the entire article: newadvent.org/summa/1036.htm#2

I have seen discussions between Catholics and Orthodox wherein the Catholic will essentially at one point say, “So you believe that X is true,” and the Orthodox fellow will say, “Yes,” and the Catholic will say, “Well I believe the very same thing, but I use this other word instead to say that,” and the Orthodox fellow will simply not accept it. The Catholic will agree with the Orthodox’s position, and he’ll say he’d had no problem using those words to explain it, it just so happens that the traditional way to say that in Latin theology is with different words, and the Orthodox will declare the Catholic’s point of view heretical. I’m not singling out Orthodox here, btw, as it happens with Eastern Catholics all the time as well. And certainly there are Eastern Christians for whom this is not the case. It just seems to be the case frequently.

It’s just really too bad. The point to this whole thing is, though, that you really have to try to grasp the concepts behind the whole thing, not the words or definitions or whatever. It’s what a person means when they say something that matters.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top