Thinking about leaving the church

[signumcrux]

Please don’t jump on me; we are all Christians here and I have sinned. If I didn’t love the Church I would have already left. I love Christ and I love the Church, but I am thinking about becoming Orthodox.

I am very familiar with Church law and understand what this means. Just thinking about leaving is sinful. I am about to have a child and I’m very worried about their spiritual well being. I’m a very traditional Catholic with no EF parish to go to. My Diocese is extremely liberal. My wife is scoffed at for wearing a chapel veil and we are told to take the Eucharist in the hand. We were told not to “show boat” by kneeling to take The Body of Christ. Even today when I was trying to make a Mass intention for an ill friend they wanted me to pay, not donate, but pay.

So you can see why the Orthodox Church is appealing to me; with their strict rubrics and extreme sanctity for the mass. I have 5 parishes within 30 miles of me and have attended all of them several times. Between Teen Mass, guitars and drums at mass, and 20 minute masses.

My thing is this; do I just need to suck it up? How does the church feel about Catholics becoming Orthodox, especially with all of the renewed talks?

Thank you guys.

 

[Armor_of_Light]

I feel you pain!

One thing I have learned on CAF…is that yes, you have to suck it up. I try very hard to stare at the cross.

But…the Holy Ghost has directed the church in this direction for some reason and I will try to work on my patience and humility and go with it.

But, boy do I wish there was an FSSP chapel or a TLM in my vicinity!

 

[RadRomCath]

Are there others in your parish or neighboring parishes with similar sentiments. This sounds like a scenario for which the Holy Father strongly encourages priests to make the EF available. What is the distance to the nearest EF? Surely not much more than the 30 miles you have visited these other parishes, is it?

I encourage you to have a talk with your priest or write him a letter about how important this is to you. If he insists he can’t offer the EF, then write the Bishop.

 

[vames]

As a “very traditional Catholic”, are you really prepared to accept this?
ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/ortho_cath.html

I doubt these fundamentals could be less important than the personal preference for “strict rubrics” or the degree of reverence subjectively perceived in a particular mass. Not to mention that the “extreme sanctity for the mass” is present and intact at every Catholic mass, regardless of how the Eucharist is distributed or whether chapel veils are there or not.

 

[murraymuzz]

I would suggest you are in the prime position to witness for Jesus Christ, and maybe this is the cross that you must bear, which would be to bring your parish back to orthodoxy of the faith, gently and charitably, but I recommend you and your family pray the rosary at home as often as you can, and ask Our Lady for the intention of your rosary to help you turn this parish around. I would also say despite what you may see in terms of lack of reverence and such other things, try to remember that you can’t trust your bodily senses at mass, something far greater is happening their than anyone could possibly imagine.

I felt the same as you did, but I have an EF near me, and while it would be very easy for me to go there, I can’t do it, as I feel it would be a cop out and I want to make it one of my missions to soften peoples hearts to the mystery of the mass.

 

[TomD123]

I am very familiar with Church law and understand what this means. Just thinking about leaving is sinful. I am about to have a child and I’m very worried about their spiritual well being. I’m a very traditional Catholic with no EF parish to go to. My Diocese is extremely liberal. My wife is scoffed at for wearing a chapel veil and we are told to take the Eucharist in the hand. We were told not to “show boat” by kneeling to take The Body of Christ. Even today when I was trying to make a Mass intention for an ill friend they wanted me to pay, not donate, but pay.

So you can see why the Orthodox Church is appealing to me; with their strict rubrics and extreme sanctity for the mass. I have 5 parishes within 30 miles of me and have attended all of them several times. Between Teen Mass, guitars and drums at mass, and 20 minute masses.

My thing is this; do I just need to suck it up? How does the church feel about Catholics becoming Orthodox, especially with all of the renewed talks?

Thank you guys.

I understand your frustration. I truly do. It is of course excellent that you want more than the liberal communities we have and more reverence etc.

I have to say though, there is a problem with this attitude. I do not mean to condemn, I truly do understand where you are coming from, but as a fellow Christian I just want to try to help, and say that this is NOT the path to go down.

See, the Orthodox, although they may have holier rubrics and the like, are really outside of the Catholic Church. You mention Church law and the well being of your child. First, this is not just an issue of Church law, as you probably know, it is of Divine Law. As Catholics we must remember that it is necessary to submit to the Holy Father for salvation (excluding invincible ignorance). This is by a command of God. Like the old saying “Where Peter is, there is the Church” so without the Pope whatever the Orthodox have, it isn’t the true Church of Christ. So when worrying about the spiritual well being of a child, yes I share your fears for when I have children, but at the same time it is NOT the solution to introduce them to schism.

Finally, in a way you do have to “suck it up.” God did not promise the Church would always have holy people at every time and place. God did not give us the authority to judge which community we “felt” the most holy at. God gave Peter the keys. Peter is the rock. As honest people we must recognize there are flaws in our parishes but we should never forget we too have flaws. It is great to strive to be traditional but at the same time if we start becoming so “traditional” that we consider leaving the Church of Christ and denying his Vicar, then we need to reevaluate ourselves and remember that we can do many great acts of holiness (genuflect, etc.) but if we do not have charity, we are nothing. And separating from the body of Christ separates us from the source of charity Himself.

Those are my thoughts, again I am not trying to sound judgmental or anything, just doing my best to help and answer your question

 

[PaulfromIowa]

Traditional Catholics going into schism to protest liberal abuses in the Catholic Church? What would Christ say to those who would desert his Church in her hour of need?

 

[dzheremi]

So you can see why the Orthodox Church is appealing to me; with their strict rubrics and extreme sanctity for the mass.

Hmm. This might seem like a minor point, but the Orthodox Church does not have “Masses”. It has liturgies (e.g., the Liturgy of St. Basil, the Liturgy of St. Cyril, etc.), or, if you’re considering Eastern Orthodox only, Divine Liturgies (almost always the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, though on certain days they will celebrate according to the Byzantine form of the Liturgy of St. Basil). I bring this up not to be pedantic, but to hopefully get you to think a little bit more about your reasons for leaving the Roman Catholic Church. Becoming Orthodox is a lot more than just transferring your Roman Catholic life into a new environment with more incense and prostrations. Granted, I did it, but honestly it was after a very long period of discernment (almost three years from last RC Mass to Orthodox baptism), regular attendance at liturgy and vespers, attending the Holy Week services, regular fasting, etc. It was and is not something to be decided because Orthodox liturgies seem more reverent or conservative than the average RC Mass. If you are going to approach Orthodoxy, you owe it yourself and to God to do so out of a sincere desire for Orthodoxy, not for ‘not Catholicism’.

My thing is this; do I just need to suck it up? How does the church feel about Catholics becoming Orthodox, especially with all of the renewed talks?

While I’m not a Roman Catholic, so I can’t answer the second question, I will say that I’m glad that I did not leave the first time I ever felt pangs of discomfort in the Latin Church. I would not have been doing so soberly (emotionally-speaking, I mean), and Orthodoxy requires a great deal of sobriety and consideration, because it is a very different way of life than what you are used to if you come from a Western Church background. And I would have to believe that most Catholics you talk to would want you to stay and tough it out. It is not always easy, but neither is starting a new life in a new tradition. Probably even better than any answer you could get from anyone here is the one you could get from your priest or Father of Confession. If you are still interested in Orthodoxy after having prayerfully considered your potential move, you could always take your concerns to an Orthodox priest, too. I don’t know of any who would be eager to receive a Roman Catholic who is “on the fence” about where they should be, so I don’t doubt he could also help you put things into perspective. It is good to get advice and views from those who would receive you whether you stay in Catholicism or convert to Orthodoxy.

God be with you.

 

[bzkoss236]

You would leave the whole Church for the actions of one church?

Wouldn’t you see this as an opportunity to correct the errors of an over liberal church body? Maybe contact the Bishop? Or, if you don’t want to deal with it, how far is the next parish?

 

[signumcrux]

I feel you pain!

One thing I have learned on CAF…is that yes, you have to suck it up. I try very hard to stare at the cross.

But…the Holy Ghost has directed the church in this direction for some reason and I will try to work on my patience and humility and go with it.

But, boy do I wish there was an FSSP chapel or a TLM in my vicinity!

Thank you. I guess you can’t question the Holy Spirit

 

[signumcrux]

As a “very traditional Catholic”, are you really prepared to accept this?
ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/ortho_cath.html

I doubt these fundamentals could be less important than the personal preference for “strict rubrics” or the degree of reverence subjectively perceived in a particular mass. Not to mention that the “extreme sanctity for the mass” is present and intact at every Catholic mass, regardless of how the Eucharist is distributed or whether chapel veils are there or not.

I have to disagree with you. There should be extreme sanctity at every mass but that isn’t the case in my situation. There is no sanctity in judgment from other parishioners. There is no sanctity in having to pay for a mass intention. You’ve obviously had a better experience with the church than I have; I’m envious

 

[signumcrux]

I would suggest you are in the prime position to witness for Jesus Christ, and maybe this is the cross that you must bear, which would be to bring your parish back to orthodoxy of the faith, gently and charitably, but I recommend you and your family pray the rosary at home as often as you can, and ask Our Lady for the intention of your rosary to help you turn this parish around. I would also say despite what you may see in terms of lack of reverence and such other things, try to remember that you can’t trust your bodily senses at mass, something far greater is happening their than anyone could possibly imagine.

I felt the same as you did, but I have an EF near me, and while it would be very easy for me to go there, I can’t do it, as I feel it would be a cop out and I want to make it one of my missions to soften peoples hearts to the mystery of the mass.

I’ve started to realize that this may be my cross to bear. St. John of the Cross and everything he had to do strengthens me. It was a mistake thinking about becoming Orthodox, I could never leave the Church. Thank you for your kind reply.

 

[signumcrux]

I understand your frustration. I truly do. It is of course excellent that you want more than the liberal communities we have and more reverence etc.

I have to say though, there is a problem with this attitude. I do not mean to condemn, I truly do understand where you are coming from, but as a fellow Christian I just want to try to help, and say that this is NOT the path to go down.

See, the Orthodox, although they may have holier rubrics and the like, are really outside of the Catholic Church. You mention Church law and the well being of your child. First, this is not just an issue of Church law, as you probably know, it is of Divine Law. As Catholics we must remember that it is necessary to submit to the Holy Father for salvation (excluding invincible ignorance). This is by a command of God. Like the old saying “Where Peter is, there is the Church” so without the Pope whatever the Orthodox have, it isn’t the true Church of Christ. So when worrying about the spiritual well being of a child, yes I share your fears for when I have children, but at the same time it is NOT the solution to introduce them to schism.

Finally, in a way you do have to “suck it up.” God did not promise the Church would always have holy people at every time and place. God did not give us the authority to judge which community we “felt” the most holy at. God gave Peter the keys. Peter is the rock. As honest people we must recognize there are flaws in our parishes but we should never forget we too have flaws. It is great to strive to be traditional but at the same time if we start becoming so “traditional” that we consider leaving the Church of Christ and denying his Vicar, then we need to reevaluate ourselves and remember that we can do many great acts of holiness (genuflect, etc.) but if we do not have charity, we are nothing. And separating from the body of Christ separates us from the source of charity Himself.

Those are my thoughts, again I am not trying to sound judgmental or anything, just doing my best to help and answer your question

Thank you for your answer. I do have a problem because I mix the human parts of mass with the Divine (Which is all that matters.)

One thing though which I have heard several times. You said "we must remember that it is necessary to submit to the Holy Father for salvation (excluding invincible ignorance). ", that statement is pretty strong.
Is there no salvation unless through the Pope? I may not be understanding the statement completely so I apologize if it sounds rude.

 

[vames]

I have to disagree with you. There should be extreme sanctity at every mass but that isn’t the case in my situation. There is no sanctity in judgment from other parishioners. There is no sanctity in having to pay for a mass intention. You’ve obviously had a better experience with the church than I have; I’m envious

I was referring to the mass itself with the Liturgy of the Word and the Holy Sacrifice, not to the parishioners who obviously have no right to criticize your wife for wearing a chapel veil. As for paying for a mass intention, aren’t mass stipends required everywhere?

 

[signumcrux]

Hmm. This might seem like a minor point, but the Orthodox Church does not have “Masses”. It has liturgies (e.g., the Liturgy of St. Basil, the Liturgy of St. Cyril, etc.), or, if you’re considering Eastern Orthodox only, Divine Liturgies (almost always the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, though on certain days they will celebrate according to the Byzantine form of the Liturgy of St. Basil). I bring this up not to be pedantic, but to hopefully get you to think a little bit more about your reasons for leaving the Roman Catholic Church. Becoming Orthodox is a lot more than just transferring your Roman Catholic life into a new environment with more incense and prostrations. Granted, I did it, but honestly it was after a very long period of discernment (almost three years from last RC Mass to Orthodox baptism), regular attendance at liturgy and vespers, attending the Holy Week services, regular fasting, etc. It was and is not something to be decided because Orthodox liturgies seem more reverent or conservative than the average RC Mass. If you are going to approach Orthodoxy, you owe it yourself and to God to do so out of a sincere desire for Orthodoxy, not for ‘not Catholicism’.

While I’m not a Roman Catholic, so I can’t answer the second question, I will say that I’m glad that I did not leave the first time I ever felt pangs of discomfort in the Latin Church. I would not have been doing so soberly (emotionally-speaking, I mean), and Orthodoxy requires a great deal of sobriety and consideration, because it is a very different way of life than what you are used to if you come from a Western Church background. And I would have to believe that most Catholics you talk to would want you to stay and tough it out. It is not always easy, but neither is starting a new life in a new tradition. Probably even better than any answer you could get from anyone here is the one you could get from your priest or Father of Confession. If you are still interested in Orthodoxy after having prayerfully considered your potential move, you could always take your concerns to an Orthodox priest, too. I don’t know of any who would be eager to receive a Roman Catholic who is “on the fence” about where they should be, so I don’t doubt he could also help you put things into perspective. It is good to get advice and views from those who would receive you whether you stay in Catholicism or convert to Orthodoxy.

God be with you.

Thank you for your answer. I’ve been to several Divine Liturgies and most Catholics are more comfortable with “Mass”. No disrespect intended.

The reverence is not the reason I am thinking about leaving the Church. It is simply that first pang for me. This thread isn’t the place for me to go any deeper. I grew up with the Latin Mass and went daily until the Bishop switched the entire parish to the Novus Ordo. They redecorated the church, brought in the table altars, and moved the tabernacle to the western side of the church. This was a big psychological blow that made me stop going to church. My grandmother, literally, died from it.

I love the Church but I don’t believe I will be damned to hell if I join the See of St. Mark.
It doesn’t matter though, I made a commitment to the Church so I will have to stay.

 

[signumcrux]

Traditional Catholics going into schism to protest liberal abuses in the Catholic Church? What would Christ say to those who would desert his Church in her hour of need?

Okay what do I do? My priest won’t speak to me and my Bishop won’t speak to me. In stead of pressing give me advise. Enlighten me please.

 

[signumcrux]

You would leave the whole Church for the actions of one church?

Wouldn’t you see this as an opportunity to correct the errors of an over liberal church body? Maybe contact the Bishop? Or, if you don’t want to deal with it, how far is the next parish?

It already said it wasn’t only one church. We wouldn’t be having this conversation if it was just one parish. I want to deal with it. Parishes are ran like businesses. The Bishop will not return my e-mails, phone calls, and when I go to his office he is always out.

 

[bzkoss236]

It already said it wasn’t only one church. We wouldn’t be having this conversation if it was just one parish. I want to deal with it. Parishes are ran like businesses. The Bishop will not return my e-mails, phone calls, and when I go to his office he is always out.

Still, I don’t think the experiences of a handful of churches should take you away from the whole Church. Maybe call/talk with the Bishop of a neighboring diocese and ask for advice. You reasons, while certainly annoying, don’t justify leaving the Church, IMHO. And not to be judgy, but seems selfish.

 

[signumcrux]

Still, I don’t think the experiences of a handful of churches should take you away from the whole Church. Maybe call/talk with the Bishop of a neighboring diocese and ask for advice. You reasons, while certainly annoying, don’t justify leaving the Church, IMHO. And not to be judgy, but seems selfish.

Sounds like judgement IMHO

 

[JABA]

I am very familiar with Church law and understand what this means. Just thinking about leaving is sinful. I am about to have a child and I’m very worried about their spiritual well being. I’m a very traditional Catholic with no EF parish to go to. My Diocese is extremely liberal. My wife is scoffed at for wearing a chapel veil and we are told to take the Eucharist in the hand. We were told not to “show boat” by kneeling to take The Body of Christ. Even today when I was trying to make a Mass intention for an ill friend they wanted me to pay, not donate, but pay.

Thank you guys.

Don’t give up just yet.

I attend Mass in the Society of Saint Pius X. There parishes are the only ones which I have found to provide a traditional Catholic Mass, the way it’s always been before and should be. Your wife won’t get scoffed here for wearing a chapel veil and it’s not acceptable there to take the Eucharist in the hand or without kneeling.

Maybe they have a church near your area.

Here is a link to there locations in different states.
sspx.org/chapels.htm#tx