Thinking of "coming back" but have lots of questions

[lada]

Yes, his first marriage is considered valid (unless there are other reasons, such as getting married without full freedom of consent, or lack of intent of one of the parties for the marriage to be permanent, faithful, fruitful — these are the kinds of things investigated by the marriage tribunal).

The Catholic Church recognizes any lawfully-performed marriage between two non-Catholics. The Church can only hold her own members to her marriage laws. If one of the parties were Catholic but got married outside the Church without a dispensation, that marriage could easily be determined invalid due to lack of form (not following the Church’s form for marriage).

Congratulations on taking the first step, calling a priest. While talking with him about the marriage issue, you might also ask him whether you could go ahead with baptizing your children now. Whether they would be baptized as infants (requiring no catechesis prior to baptism) or as “adults” (having reached the age of reason, usually 7 or so, and requiring catechesis and their own decision to be baptized) depends on their age, maturity, and the judgment of the pastor.

Before having them baptized, you must be committed to be in this for the “long haul,” as you will be responsible for raising your children Catholic regardless of the outcome of your husband’s appeal for a declaration of nullity. (If for some reason it were denied, would you still take your children to Mass every Sunday and holy day, and to the other sacraments, for as long as they are under your care?) Baptism makes your children obligated to follow all the laws of the Church. To have them baptized before you are sure you can help them do that would be unfair to them.

That is what I thought about his marriage, but wasn’t sure.

My oldest child is 10, but was baptized as an infant. The others are 4, 3, and 1. I have thought long and hard about this, tried on different churches, and I really have decided that I “belong” in the Catholic church. I do realize that there is a possiblity that my husband will not be granted an annulment. He was very young, about to go off to war, and his wife was just 17 at the time, so I do think that neither of them were really cognizant of the responsibilities they were taking on. However, if the annulment does not go through, I will be happy to just be able to go to Mass and participate as a church member in whatever capacities I can.

The only thing that would really bother me is not being able to receive absolution for my past sins. I have received conflicting advice here about whether or not I can receive the sacrament of reconcilliation while in my current marital state. Maybe someone can clear that up for me.

Thanks again for all the good thoughts and prayers.

 

[PhilotheaZ]

My oldest child is 10, but was baptized as an infant.

Be sure to enroll this child in your parish’s faith formation program (sometimes called CCD, parish school of religion, etc.). If he or she has had no catechesis, your parish may have a special program for older children to “catch up” and be prepared for the sacraments of Confession and Communion before they join children of their own age for further instruction.

 

[PJM]

I have made an appointment to talk to the local priest! YAY!

I did think of a question, and of course I will ask the priest, but…

My husband has never been baptized at all. So is his first marriage still considered valid?

Reply:

Awesome

I’m not 100% certain, but I think you’ll find that “The Church” accepts his marriage as “legal” but not “vaild” by Church drfination.

Keep in touch and let us know how your doing. I’ll keep you in my prayers.

God bless,
PJM m.c.

 

[newbetx]

Lada,
I think you have a long road ahead of you but I want to say that I will pray for you to continue. It may not be easy, but it will be worth it!

I had some pretty heavy sins to confess, I did them face to face in an appointment. I didn’t want to try to cram it in during the regular pre-Mass confession times with a long line out the door. You can confess during the private meeting with the priest. I assure you that you aren’t the only one with such a past and you will be forgiven! And you may need him for reassurance and comforting during the confession. I immagine it will be difficult.

Peace to you!

 

[newbetx]

The only thing that would really bother me is not being able to receive absolution for my past sins. I have received conflicting advice here about whether or not I can receive the sacrament of reconcilliation while in my current marital state. Maybe someone can clear that up for me.

Thanks again for all the good thoughts and prayers.

You are welcome for the prayers. More than happy to assist you in your journey.

As for reconciliation… As I understand it, it’s not like you are living with your boyfriend… You intended this to be your husband. The priest may ask you to be chaste while the annulment is underway and that, as I understand it , will open the door to reconciliation. I.e., you are not chosing to live in sin. You might be prepared for that. BUT, this is a subject you need to address honestly with the priest. He will guide you home!

That brings up a question… what does your husband think of all this? Would he consider going to RCIA? Confession with you? Your appointment?

 

[Ruthie]

Both your prior weddings will have to go before the marriage tribunal. (Don’t flinch at that last word! It’s OK!)

Since you were baptized Catholic, marrying outside the Church would have required permission. Marrying an unbaptized person would have required a dispensation from your Bishop. So your first wedding is a matter of form, and should be decided quickly by the tribunal.

Your husband’s will take longer. Can he find any witnesses besides his wife who can testify about their ability to contract a valid marriage? (A couple of reasons would be entering marriage with the idea that divorce was always an option, or having decided previously not to have children.)

The average time for a typical declaration of nullity to be final is around a year. Mine, with the cooperation of my ex, but only one other witness, took more like two. Some of that was my fault, due to procrastination.

As for the sacraments, here’s the deal. Since you guys are not yet validly married in the Church, for you to have relations is the sin of fornication. You can’t make a valid confession if you intend to continue to commit sin! That’s why you couldn’t receive the Sacraments yet.

But if you and your husband can live “as brother and sister” until you can have your marriage convalidated, then you can receive the Sacraments. You will not be required to separate. I speak from experience!

As for the vasectomy, you are innocent of that. It’s in the past. Your hubby should confess it, though. Once you’re “officially” married, there is no need to refrain, or to have it reversed. That is the opinion of our forum Apologists, not mine!

God bless you,

Ruthie

 

[PhilotheaZ]

As for the vasectomy, you are innocent of that. It’s in the past. Your hubby should confess it, though.

Ruthie gave you lots of good advice in her post. On this one point I would caution you. You said you were “not in complete agreement” with your husband on the vasectomy. If you were even in partial agreement, or encouraged it in any way (even by grudging agreement or silence), when you eventually do go to Confession you should confess whatever part you may have had in his decision.

 

[Ruthie]

Philo is right.

Ruthie, grumpy and ill

 

[PhilotheaZ]

Ruthie, grumpy and ill

Hope you feel better soon!

 

[GailMac]

Dear Lada - Since you asked…I was widowed in 1986. I tried to have another “marriage” to a stray Catholic in 1988, but the coward left after two years. We only got to the engaged and pregnant part. He promised a big fat Catholic wedding with the Sacraments and everything, but really only wanted to get laid and have a better pillow under his head. I figured it out. He was so stray he even lied to try and prevent me from receiving the Sacraments. I think some of the lies he died with still in his head was that if I didn’t get baptised, the sins he used my flesh to commit wouldn’t count against him or something like that. I tried to talk him back into Confession shortly before he died. He never went. And so there I was with two daughters, and a lot of conversion going on. I’ve been abstinent since he left. It is possible. And I hear it is actually a VIRTUE. Ya might be able to do it. Oh, the coward died a few years later, so if he’d decided to return to the Church, I’d have been widowed twice.

Peace,

Gail

 

[Sheeniac]

Hi -

Our stories have some similarities, but I will focus on the annulment situation.

I left the Church as a teen, and married outside of the Church. I had to fill in a one page document for the annulment. One suggestion - you will need originals of all of your documents - marriage, divorce and baptismal. Start digging them up now. It took forever to find my baptismal certificate, but it’s sitting on my desk as I type.

His annulment - you should see if your Diocese offers any workshops regarding the annulment procedure. We (my BF and I) went to one and it helped immensely.

It’s a daunting document - 90 plus questions for the basic questionnaire - answer what you can. Witnesses can be from his side (family preferred, we were told) - if you can’t find anyone to witness about her state of mind from her side, don’t worry.

They would like to locate her to send her a questionnaire for her (name removed by moderator)ut, but if they can’t, or she doesn’t reply, no worries. After a certain amount of time, the window closes.

I was an atheist for 25 years and still am trying to meet more Catholics (I’ve been back 2 years) - most of my Catholic friends are no longer Catholics… sigh.

But don’t worry - the Holy Spirit invited you back, and God’s Church on earth is thrilled you responded! There is a place for you at His banquet.

By the way…

WELCOME BACK!!

 

[GailMac]

Dear PhilotheaZ - Haven’t you heard the good news? ANYONE CAN BAPTISE.
You cannot use that Sacrament to confuse Lada into joining your denomination.

Peace,

Gail

 

[KathleenElsie]

**PhilotheaZ gave you some good advice. **

The reason that many priests don’t want to baptize a child if the parents are not practicing Catholics is that the process includes a promise to train the child in the Faith. God Parents can be friends or relatives and I have known where the God Parent is a priest or religious from a local monastery etc.

 

[PhilotheaZ]

Dear PhilotheaZ - Haven’t you heard the good news? ANYONE CAN BAPTISE.
You cannot use that Sacrament to confuse Lada into joining your denomination.

Peace,

Gail

What in the world are you talking about? Lada, you, and I all describe ourselves in our Public Profiles as “Catholic.” I don’t belong to a denomination; I belong to the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, and by God’s grace, I always will. I don’t have a clue what you meant by that.

And no, anyone CAN’T baptise, except in conditions of necessity. I explained that to you in a Private Message in response to yours, but to avoid confusing the rest of the readers here, I will repeat what I wrote:

A few references for you (bold emphasis added.) Note that references to the laity baptizing are for cases of necessity. It is never necessary for the laity to baptize if a priest or deacon is available. Usually, necessity would mean that the person to be baptized is in danger of death, or lives in a place where no ordinary ministers of the sacrament (priests or deacons) are available for extended periods of time (in the latter case, the priest in charge of the parish would appoint lay persons to do it; no one takes this upon themselves). Note that even a priest cannot baptize outside his own territory without permission except in a case of necessity (Canon 862).

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

V. Who can Baptize?

1256 The ordinary ministers of Baptism are the bishop and priest and, in the Latin Church, also the deacon.57 In case of necessity

, any person, even someone not baptized, can baptize, if he has the required intention. The intention required is to will to do what the Church does when she baptizes, and to apply the Trinitarian baptismal formula. The Church finds the reason for this possibility in the universal saving will of God and the necessity of Baptism for salvation.58

From the Code of Canon Law:

Can. 861 §1 The ordinary minister of baptism is a Bishop, a priest or a deacon

, without prejudice to the provision of can. 530, n. 1.

§2 If the ordinary minister is absent or impeded, a catechist or some other person deputed to this office by the local Ordinary, may lawfully confer baptism; indeed, in a case of necessity, any person who has the requisite intention may do so. Pastors of souls, especially parish priests, are to be diligent in ensuring that Christ’s faithful are taught the correct way to baptise.

Can. 862 Except in a case of necessity, it is unlawful for anyone without due permission to confer baptism outside his own territory, not even upon his own subjects.

Can. 530 The functions especially entrusted to the parish priest are as follows:

1° the administration of baptism;

I hope this helps.

PhilotheaZ

Originally Posted by GailMac
Dear PhilotheaZ - Anyone can baptise and no there doesn’t need to be an emergency.

Peace,

Gail

 

[muffinmojo]

You never have to confess face-to-face. A priest is required to offer confessions with a screen, the face to face is only an option. The norm is screened. I’ve never confessed face to face and can’t imagine doing it…even for small sins.

Confession is open to all baptized Catholics, no matter your marital state or state of sin/separation from the Church, what have you. That’s the point is for people who need to be forgiven for something Don’t worry, priests will never withhold absolution unless they have some reason to think you are insincere, which is pretty much never. You can go to any old parish, not necessarily the one you wish to attend. Someone mentioned this, but for really personal or embarassing sins, it is perfectly fine to go to a priest you don’t know so you don’t have to have them recognize your voice. Confession is supposed to be anonymous if you wish it to be. The priest will guide you through and the vast majority of priests are gentle, particularly if you say you have been gone for a while.

 

[lada]

I have never been face to face except when I was in Catholic school and then I think face to face was the only option. I hated it and got to the point where I would make sure I had my parents take me so I wouldn’t have to do it there!

 

[vernmargaret]

I am in the same boat. I married outside the church 27 years ago when basically I had left the church. My husband is not baptised, is twice divorced and has 4 kids. He also had a vasectomy before we married.

I started attending Mass again about 4 years ago, went to confession, but didn’t realized that I was forbidden to receive Communion. I’ve also ben told that my confessions are not “sacramental” at this time.

My husband will never become Catholic or participate in any way in having our marriage validated. He considered converting years but was told by a priest that his 1st marriage would be declared invalid and his kids illegimate. If he even knew that this concerned me he would be furious. So if I were to pursue convalidation I would have to go behind his back. That can’t be right, can it? If he thought that I considered our 27 year marriage invalid until I got the Church’s Ok we probably wouldn’t make it to 28 years. That can’t be what the Church wants!

I don’t like that the Church forbids me to receive the sacraments the same way they treat policitians who promote abortion. Why can’t I just be forgiven for my mistakes?

I’ve also read that if I had “left” the Church at that time, I wasn’t obligated to marry in the Church. What’s up with that?

So I see two possible outcomes:

1. The Church says my marriage is ok (well, I already knew that!)
2. The Church says my marriage is not ok and I have to end my marriage (is that what they want?)

Either way I have to go behind my husband’s back and apply for convalidation which I understand costs a lot of money and how am I going to do that without him knowing?

I am very angry about this and did not attend Mass this week. I am trying to pray about this but I’m even having a hard time with that.

 

[PhilotheaZ]

My husband will never become Catholic or participate in any way in having our marriage validated. He considered converting years but was told by a priest that his 1st marriage would be declared invalid and his kids illegimate. If he even knew that this concerned me he would be furious. So if I were to pursue convalidation I would have to go behind his back. That can’t be right, can it? If he thought that I considered our 27 year marriage invalid until I got the Church’s Ok we probably wouldn’t make it to 28 years. That can’t be what the Church wants!

I don’t like that the Church forbids me to receive the sacraments the same way they treat policitians who promote abortion. Why can’t I just be forgiven for my mistakes?

Either way I have to go behind my husband’s back and apply for convalidation which I understand costs a lot of money and how am I going to do that without him knowing?

I am very angry about this and did not attend Mass this week. I am trying to pray about this but I’m even having a hard time with that.

I understand your frustration, and I am sorry to know that you are suffering. Perhaps a couple of things will help.

First, the issue here is that your husband was twice married and divorced. Try not to be angry with the Church; she is bound to uphold Christ’s teaching that “what God has joined together” cannot be broken. The annulment process would help determine whether either of your husband’s prior marriages was ever valid. It is a matter of seeking the truth. Some people find that working through the process gave them peace and closure.

The fact that he has four children does not impact the validity of your marriage, nor does the fact that he had a vasectomy before you were married.

Whoever told you that a declaration of nullity for his first marriage would make his children “illegitimate” was absolutely WRONG. Children are a gift from God, whether born inside or outside a valid marriage. The issue of legitimacy/illegitimacy is an old, outdated one that had to do with worldly issues such as property inheritance. It’s a term that really isn’t used any more and should no longer be a concern for you and your husband.

Does your husband like to read? Perhaps you could ask your pastor to recommend a book or pamphlet that explains the annulment process in a sensitive, non-threatening way. Then you and your husband can read it together.

If you want to pursue the annulment process but cannot afford the fees (which simply cover the costs of the work involved), there may be the possibility of waiving or decreasing the fee. Ask your pastor.

Please don’t let your anger keep you from Mass. That is the devil trying to work on you. Prayer and trust in God are what you need most right now.

In any case, God knows your good intentions, that you want to rectify the situation. Ask Him to guide you, and trust in His mercy. God bless you!

 

[KathleenElsie]

I understand your frustration, and I am sorry to know that you are suffering. Perhaps a couple of things will help.

First, the issue here is that your husband was twice married and divorced. Try not to be angry with the Church; she is bound to uphold Christ’s teaching that “what God has joined together” cannot be broken. The annulment process would help determine whether either of your husband’s prior marriages was ever valid. It is a matter of seeking the truth. Some people find that working through the process gave them peace and closure.

The fact that he has four children does not impact the validity of your marriage, nor does the fact that he had a vasectomy before you were married.

Whoever told you that a declaration of nullity for his first marriage would make his children “illegitimate” was absolutely WRONG. As long as the government recognizes the marriage (the fact there was a divorce proves this) the children are considered legitimate in law. The Church follows civil law for the use of legitimacy. Children are a gift from God, whether born inside or outside a valid marriage. The issue of legitimacy/illegitimacy is an old, outdated one that had to do with worldly issues such as property inheritance. It’s a term that really isn’t used any more and should no longer be a concern for you and your husband.

Does your husband like to read? Perhaps you could ask your pastor to recommend a book or pamphlet that explains the annulment process in a sensitive, non-threatening way. Then you and your husband can read it together.

If you want to pursue the annulment process but cannot afford the fees (which simply cover the costs of the work involved), there may be the possibility of waiving or decreasing the fee. Ask your pastor. The average cost is around $300 for the paperwork.

Please don’t let your anger keep you from Mass. I went and stayed on my knees for 20 years. That is the devil trying to work on you. Prayer and trust in God are what you need most right now. I was unable to receive for 20 years. No divorce issues. My husband refused to convalidate our wedding that was outside the church. On our 20th he consented to the convalidation. Last year he CAME INTO HOLY MOTHER CHURCH 40 years after we were origionally married acording to the state law. I laugh he has had more training in the Faith then the majority of those born into the Catholic Church.

In any case, God knows your good intentions, that you want to rectify the situation. Ask Him to guide you, and trust in His mercy. God bless you!

PAX

 

[vernmargaret]

Thank you both for your replies and your prayers. I still have trouble recognizing the Church’s authority to validate what I believe are sacred vows between my husband and myself, but I will continue to pray on this and hope to allow the Holy Spirit to guide me to the truth.