Thinking you will go to heaven even with mortal sin

[yellow8yellowM]

I have encountered this: People who think they will go to heaven, or have a great amount of hope that they will get into heaven, even when they perpetually commit the same mortal sin. These are Catholics who are catechized well enough to know it is a mortal sin they are committing, but not catechized enough to know this isn’t how it’s supposed to work.

Their response to any conversation in this matter always ends up with them believing in God’s infinite mercy and that He will understand why it was okay for them to commit the sin.

How might you approach this?

 

[Tighty_Whitey]

This is a great question and one I’m very interested in following to see the responses.

One thought that comes to mind is questioning the certainty of knowing that the person perpetually commits the same mortal sin. For example a person might be a kleptomaniac thus they habitually steal, therefore the criteria for mortal sin might not be satisfied.

Additionally there are so many many ways to commit mortal sin, (missing a Holy Day of Obligation, Lustful thoughts, pride that one is not guilty of committing a mortal sin, receiving Eucharist while in a state of mortal sin, etc.), that it seems almost inevitable that nearly everyone is going to die in a state of mortal sin.

I belong to a parish that has nearly 3,500 families. On any given Saturday when Reconcilliation is offered there may be 20 people in line. All in all, it doesn’t look good for nearly all of us.

 

[alwayslooking]

I have posed this questions to priests before at adult catechism classes. It does seem almost inevitable that all of us will die in a state or mortal sin.

From what I’ve been told by priests and have read; sometimes an act may on the surface be a mortal sin, but if the sin is committed because of a mental disorder like addiction the person may genially want to stop, but can’t. If sin is committed under this circumstance the sin does not fulfill the requirement of turning one’s back on God. I suppose only the person and God would know if the sin, in this case, is mortal.

 

[yellow8yellowM]

…that it seems almost inevitable that nearly everyone is going to die in a state of mortal sin.

…It does seem almost inevitable that all of us will die in a state or mortal sin.

I do not want this thread to digress into a “what is a mortal sin” thread, so I will quickly respond to these first two replies.

It is certainly not inevitable that everyone will die in the state of mortal sin. To commit a mortal sin you have to know you are committing it and continue to commit it. You have to say to yourself, “I am going to commit this grave sin even though I know God forbids it.” There is a lot of free will involved. I kindly beg you to please start a new thread if you want to continue this discussion.

 

[dailey]

I have encountered this: People who think they will go to heaven, or have a great amount of hope that they will get into heaven, even when they perpetually commit the same mortal sin. These are Catholics who are catechized well enough to know it is a mortal sin they are committing, but not catechized enough to know this isn’t how it’s supposed to work.

Their response to any conversation in this matter always ends up with them believing in God’s infinite mercy and that He will understand why it was okay for them to commit the sin.

How might you approach this?

I think you have pretty much described 90% of Catholics.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Isn’t this called “presumption?”

To presume that God will have mercy on you even though you reject the sacrament of Confession and decide for yourself that you do not need to humble yourself before the Lord God Almighty and ask for His forgiveness?

I pray for these people constantly.

 

[JRKH]

Isn’t this called "presumption?"

To presume that God will have mercy on you even though you reject the sacrament of Confession and decide for yourself that you do not need to humble yourself before the Lord God Almighty and ask for His forgiveness?

I pray for these people constantly.

You beat me too it…

Even though the OP is very open ended and we certainly cannot address the many permutations of why people repeatedly commit the same sin, we can recognize “presumption” in this line from the OP:
Their response to any conversation in this matter always ends up with them believing in God’s infinite mercy and that He will understand why it was okay for them to commit the sin. (Emphasis mine)
It is wonderful and good to believe in God’s Mercy but it is not acceptable to think that committing sin is “…okay for them…” So perhaps ask them what they base this hope on? God may be infinitely merciful but he is also infinitely just…So - on what basis do they believe they can deliberately and repeatedly and unrepentantly offend God and expect God to forgive?

Ask them to consider this…When we pray the Our Father we say “Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.”
This idea is amplified in the Gospels
Mt 6 says:
14 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; 15 but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Mt 7: says:
"1 "Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get.
So - if they expect God to be “infinitely merciful” with them - they must be infinitely merciful with others. Would they be willing to repeatedly forgive those who deliberately and repeatedly and unrepentantly offend them in grave matters?

If they are honest…they will say no…there will come a point at which they cannot forgive…and would have to cut that person off from them permanently.

So - the Bottom line becomes this. If they themselves are not infinitely merciful with others…how can they expect God to be infinitely merciful with them?

Not sure if I expressed this too well - but I hope it helps some.

Peace
James

 

[beehumble]

I have encountered this: People who think they will go to heaven, or have a great amount of hope that they will get into heaven, even when they perpetually commit the same mortal sin. These are Catholics who are catechized well enough to know it is a mortal sin they are committing, but not catechized enough to know this isn’t how it’s supposed to work.

Their response to any conversation in this matter always ends up with them believing in God’s infinite mercy and that He will understand why it was okay for them to commit the sin.

How might you approach this?

I would encourage them to go to confession, “just to be sure.” Some people just don’t go to confession, for whatever reason, so I would encourage those to go on Divine Mercy Sunday, reminding them they might (if all conditions are met) get both their sins and punishment forgiven so they should take advantage of that special day.

Last year as Divine Mercy Sunday approached, I talked up Divine Mercy Sunday to a family member who hadn’t gone to confession in over 25 years; they went and felt so good afterwards that they called me up when they got home to tell me how great it was and good they felt!

God bless you.

 

[R_C]

I have encountered this: People who think they will go to heaven, or have a great amount of hope that they will get into heaven, even when they perpetually commit the same mortal sin. These are Catholics who are catechized well enough to know it is a mortal sin they are committing, but not catechized enough to know this isn’t how it’s supposed to work.

Their response to any conversation in this matter always ends up with them believing in God’s infinite mercy and that He will understand why it was okay for them to commit the sin.

How might you approach this?

By telling them (a) this is a sin against the Holy Spirit known as presumption (as mentioned above) and (b) this is also the core of a heresy called sola fide which has been placed under anathema. If they are so well catechized, then they can study a bit more and learn about these two facts - which should suffice to change their mindset. But if they were so knowledgeable, then they’d have at least read the New Testament, which in many, many ways condemns such an argument.

Now, you do speak of “committing the same mortal sin” and yet “having hope”. There’s contradiction here - it is possible that the person is not fully knowledgeable of the fact that the thing is a mortal sin, and thus not giving deliberate consent to mortal sin. But if they are, then the thought that “God will forgive anyways because he is merciful” is offensive and moves the Father to anger because it means the person is literally choosing to hit Christ with a scourge rather than treating Him with honor, trusting that the Father will forgive him anyways.

But there’s a huge difference. Christ pleaded forgiveness for those who hurt Him by telling the Father: “forgive them, they don’t know what they are doing”. But if you know what you are doing, if you know that you are sinning and thus hurting Christ, then the sin remains, since you are not blind…and there’s no forgiveness, because there is no willingness to repent and turn your heart to God, a necessary prerequisite for all reconciliations.

 

[Apologista]

I saw this and it put me in mind of how we try to make the “Devil made me do it” excuse sometimes . . .

http://chirho.me/memes/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/417213_358146020937044_1433923464_n.jpeg

 

[GAHere]

Now, you do speak of “committing the same mortal sin” and yet “having hope”. There’s contradiction here - it is possible that the person is not fully knowledgeable of the fact that the thing is a mortal sin, and thus not giving deliberate consent to mortal sin. But if they are, then the thought that “God will forgive anyways because he is merciful” is offensive and moves the Father to anger because it means the person is literally choosing to hit Christ with a scourge rather than treating Him with honor, trusting that the Father will forgive him anyways.

But there’s a huge difference. Christ pleaded forgiveness for those who hurt Him by telling the Father: “forgive them, they don’t know what they are doing”. But if you know what you are doing, if you know that you are sinning and thus hurting Christ, then the sin remains, since you are not blind…and there’s no forgiveness, because there is no willingness to repent and turn your heart to God, a necessary prerequisite for all reconciliations.

Emphasis mine, because it is what I was thinking upon the first read of this thread. The OP is basically describing my siblings, and honestly, they do not know the seriousness of their decision to enter into the Baptist tradition, or just no longer associate with any religious institution. They have voiced to me, and I suspect the other fallen-away Catholics take the same position, that they have received their sacraments (all the way through confirmation), therefore they remain Catholic to their deaths. When they do attend a Catholic mass (weddings/funerals) they receive the Eucharist. They reject confession to a priest, but still confess to God personally. In that, I think, is what they rely upon for salvation in the end.

I get the impression that having once received the sacraments of the Catholic church, those become their ‘insurance’ so to speak. There really is no reasoning with them. I have tried to explain the church’s teaching on the sacraments and our obligations to honor them to no avail. They do not concede they are in a state of mortal sin just because the church says that they are. They cling to the baptist teaching of “once saved always saved”, with an extra dose of Catholic sacramental history.

 

[yellow8yellowM]

Emphasis mine, because it is what I was thinking upon the first read of this thread. The OP is basically describing my siblings, and honestly, they do not know the seriousness of their decision to enter into the Baptist tradition, or just no longer associate with any religious institution. They have voiced to me, and I suspect the other fallen-away Catholics take the same position, that they have received their sacraments (all the way through confirmation), therefore they remain Catholic to their deaths. When they do attend a Catholic mass (weddings/funerals) they receive the Eucharist. They reject confession to a priest, but still confess to God personally. In that, I think, is what they rely upon for salvation in the end.

In the OP I meant to make the assumption that the person knows it is a grave sin and does it anyway.

Otherwise, you get into the trap of thinking that, “Well, if they really understood what they were doing then they definitely wouldn’t have committed the sin.”

If you think this, then basically nobody can ever commit a mortal sin. At some point, people have to take responsibility. I don’t know exactly where the line is drawn, but there is certainly a line.

 

[PJM]

=yellow8yellowM;10240369]I have encountered this: People who think they will go to heaven, or have a great amount of hope that they will get into heaven, even when they perpetually commit the same mortal sin. These are Catholics who are catechized well enough to know it is a mortal sin they are committing, but not catechized enough to know this isn’t how it’s supposed to work.

Their response to any conversation in this matter always ends up with them believing in God’s infinite mercy and that He will understand why it was okay for them to commit the sin.

How might you approach this?

Try this:

Ask: “is God a Good God?”

Of Course He is!

Then ask: Are being “Just and being Fair” “good things”?

Yes!

Then God has no choice but to be Good and to be fair, He must be “good.”

Heb.6: 10 “For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do.

Rom. 2:6 “Who will render to every man according to his works.”

Rev. 20:12 “And I saw the dead, great and small, standing in the presence of the throne, and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged by those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev. 22:12 “Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to every man according to his works”

**Then explain: **

Of the Billions of created things in the Universe; only One. Only man can choose freely to love or to hate God. That then becomes the primary reason of our exisrence.

Because it is OUR choice not God’s where we choose to spend Eternity.

Deut. 30:19
I *[who Am your God] *call heaven and earth to witness this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Choose therefore life, that both thou and thy seed may live" Our choice

Eccl. 15:18 “Before man is life and death, good and evil, that which he shall choose shall be given him”

The proof

Because God Created man &

Because God Created man in His own image Gen 1:26-27

Man alone has a mind, intellect, FREEWILL attached to our Souls. And like God these are Spiritual things and Eternal things. Precisely so that man alone can choose heaven or hell for Eternity.

God Bless you and your efforts!
Pat/PJM

 

[GAHere]

In the OP I meant to make the assumption that the person knows it is a grave sin and does it anyway.

Otherwise, you get into the trap of thinking that, “Well, if they really understood what they were doing then they definitely wouldn’t have committed the sin.”

If you think this, then basically nobody can ever commit a mortal sin. At some point, people have to take responsibility. I don’t know exactly where the line is drawn, but there is certainly a line.

The OP writes:
These are Catholics who are catechized well enough to know it is a mortal sin they are committing, but not catechized enough to know this isn’t how it’s supposed to work.

Therein lies the problem. They ‘know’ (i.e. learned) about mortal sin, but they don’t ‘know’ that what they have chosen to do constitutes one of “those” mortal sins. That’s why it’s so difficult to engage in a conversation with them about it.

For one thing, they probably aren’t asking us if what they are doing is acceptable by church standards. In their minds they already know the answer (even though we know it’s wrong). To initiate a conversation suggesting to them they are committing a mortal sin results in a very defensive or dismissive posture on their part.

I really like the question the OP raised because it is very difficult to handle.

 

[Apologista]

I think a lot of people fall into the trap of being influenced by public opinion. We hear over and over things like “So if I ate a hot dog on a Friday back in the day I’m going to Hell?” which makes it sound like a technicality and God like a nit-picker. They don’t understand that underneath it all needs to be loving obedience. Nowadays they might pick an issue like missing Sunday Mass. They put it on the same level as missing a meeting of the neighborhood planning committee or something. Just another thing to tick off a busy schedule. “I was just too tired to go.” Or some other excuse. Then they get defensive when someone calls them on it.

 

[PJM]

=GAHere;10250569]The OP writes:
These are Catholics who are catechized well enough to know it is a mortal sin they are committing, but not catechized enough to know this isn’t how it’s supposed to work.

Therein lies the problem. They ‘know’ (i.e. learned) about mortal sin, but they don’t ‘know’ that what they have chosen to do constitutes one of “those” mortal sins. That’s why it’s so difficult to engage in a conversation with them about it.

For one thing, they probably aren’t asking us if what they are doing is acceptable by church standards. In their minds they already know the answer (even though we know it’s wrong). To initiate a conversation suggesting to them they are committing a mortal sin results in a very defensive or dismissive posture on their part.

I really like the question the OP raised because it is very difficult to handle.

IMO:shrug:

Some are “over-thinking” this issue.

While their may be rare times when one does hold serious doubts about this or that being a MORTAL sin; the very fact that it is a concernitself, imposed a MOTRAL SIN obligation to find out. Talk to a priest. That is just good old common sense.

More often than not I SUSPECT; the question is more of one trying to convience themselves that its NOT a MS; than actually and honestly knowing it is or is not?

Then their is the unavoidable issue of HOW God will; because He must judge us.

Not on what we know

Not on what we hope

Not on what we prefer

NO! God’s Judgment will on what He God MAKES POSSIBLE for us to know.

ANY and all catholics have the opportunity and the ability to find out; and therefore th grave moral obligation to do so. Prentending one doesn’t will not go well with God.

God Bles,
pat/PJM

 

[ericboutin]

IMO Pat, LOL
You may be oversimplifying the issue. The OP is talking (I believe) of when people won’t use common sense because they are getting defensive right from the get-go. I too have run across folks like this and it is very difficult and I really haven’t found a good way to approach it effectively either. A fellow Catholic that I work with is exactly like this…he is doing the whole living together/pre-marital thing and insists on getting married in the Catholic church (which is good) but when I questioned him on how he squares that with what the Church teaches…well things go south in a hurry. You get “it’s 2013, that is old thinking etc etc”.
Anyway like was said earlier this is a really an interesting question and I too would love to hear some success stories and what your approach was. Not meaning to pick on you Pat, I do absolutely agree with the rest of your post; I’m just trying to figure out how to get to where I can articulate exactly what you wrote when they are so defensive.

 

[PJM]

=ericboutin;10252612]IMO Pat, LOL
You may be oversimplifying the issue. The OP is talking (I believe) of when people won’t use common sense because they are getting defensive right from the get-go. I too have run across folks like this and it is very difficult and I really haven’t found a good way to approach it effectively either. A fellow Catholic that I work with is exactly like this…he is doing the whole living together/pre-marital thing and insists on getting married in the Catholic church (which is good) but when I questioned him on how he squares that with what the Church teaches…well things go south in a hurry. You get “it’s 2013, that is old thinking etc etc”.
Anyway like was said earlier this is a really an interesting question and I too would love to hear some success stories and what your approach was. Not meaning to pick on you Pat, I do absolutely agree with the rest of your post; I’m just trying to figure out how to get to where I can articulate exactly what you wrote when they are so defensive.

Hmmmmmm

Sometimes [always with eye contact and a BIG smile] try a Direct approach.

Do you believe it God?

yes I do

How many God’s do you beieve in?

One of course [or some such reply]

Then have you consdiered that because there is only One God; that He can have ONLY ONE set of faith beliefs? God can’t contradict Himself.

Hmmmmmmm

Jesus gave the "key’s to the Kingdom of heaven to ONLY Peter [Matt. 16:18-19] and through Him our Catholic Church. what the Church teaches is WHAT Jesus Himself taught and Commands

Beyond doing this [or someting similar] all we can do is pray for them and be open for questions.

God Bless,
Pat/PJM

 

[ericboutin]

And now if I can go ahead and simplify things…lol…that may be exactly what we need to do, just simply pray. You are right. You can’t beat a beat a dead horse; I think at least for me it’s frustrating with the Pelosi/Biden Catholics out there, what I like to call the psuedo-Catholics I just want to shake them! Lol. Anyway you are probably right, plant the seed and stop trying to do the Holy Spirits job! Lol

 

[Lady_Love]

Never discourage anyone who has confidence in God’s mercy!

You may have to approach these people a different way. It may be as simple as this:

God obviously loves you enough to forgive you of your mortal sins but do you love God and yourself enough to stop committing them? God loves you enough to forgive you of these sins but do you love Him enough to stop subjecting Him to such horrible crimes? To make it to heaven the love MUST be reciprocated.