"Third Base" Within Marriage, is it Right?

[Regulaguy]

My question is, can a husband be brought to climax outside of intercourse when the couple is clearly beyond child bearing age? Wouldn’t age be a mitigating factor as long as the unitive, self giving properties of the relationship were intact.

My gut response would be no. It seems to me that everything that has been said about why this act is wrong, would still apply in that situation. The unitive, self-giving properties of the relationship are not intact if the male is brought to climax outside of intercourse. He would not be giving all of himself to her in the manner in which he was meant to.

In other words, I don’t see how the rules would change just because the couple is physically incapable of bearing children, whether that’s due to age or other things.

What do you think?

 

[Credd1]

Still struggle with this, especially if in the context of a single lovemaking session where more than one climax is likely to occur and at least one was through intercourse. However, I would rather err on the side of caution. Of course, this denies the husband, which I also find problematic. He does not share the same views on this topic.

 

[Rau]

My gut response would be no. It seems to me that everything that has been said about why this act is wrong, would still apply in that situation. The unitive, self-giving properties of the relationship are not intact if the male is brought to climax outside of intercourse. He would not be giving all of himself to her in the manner in which he was meant to.

In other words, I don’t see how the rules would change just because the couple is physically incapable of bearing children, whether that’s due to age or other things.

What do you think?

You are correct. Every marital act is required to be of the kind which consummates a marriage. That a couple may be beyond child bearing age, or sterile, does not change that.

 

[Rau]

Still struggle with this, especially if in the context of a single lovemaking session where more than one climax is likely to occur and at least one was through intercourse.

Your statement here suggests you view the “wrong” act as wrong solely by virtue of a contraceptive nature. As you point out, contraception may be far from the mind of the persons concerned.

However, I would rather err on the side of caution. Of course, this denies the husband, which I also find problematic. He does not share the same views on this topic.

I don’t understand this statement.

 

[edlinked]

Some understandings to analyze:

We need to understand that the point is to keep "sight’ on God above everything, to “keep looking up”. For if you stay on what makes the body happy your sight will stay there, but if your true intention is what makes the spirit happy it will take your sight toward the direction of what truly makes the person happy, God. The point is, you can’t have two masters and your heart will be where you put your treasures.

Marriage as a sacrament is for the holiness (to sanctify) and salvation of the spouses. As this is a sacrament it can only come from God, and its end should only be God (get to God). We need to understand that God is the important point, as God is alfa and omega, and following the first commandment. God should be the center point always. Your spouse as they should want the best for you, the best would end up being, to want God for you.

Love is not sexual pleasure, for God is love. Then love is following Gods ways.

I always recommend Love and Responsibility by Karol Wojtyla to understand the approach we need to have.

It’s interesting to me that when we talk about sexual stuff nobody talks about the Virgin Mary. I like to talk about her on these matters, because the sacred family gives us many insights that we tend not to analyze. Probably because it states that Love (God) being love didn’t come from what the world states that is love (intercourse, making love). Love is caring, caring like He cares, He doesn’t need sexual pleasure. Love gives life, because it loves, it doesn’t need pleasure to give it. Then analyze if pleasure gives the gift of life, or if life gives the gift of pleasure. Be wary of the acts that the world state as good and state as “normal” and “natural”, for we know the world don’t care Who Good Is.

So in my understanding, in order to keep sight on God, purity and humility are needed. Our Mother shows us that when we are humble and pure we will say yes to God no matter what, because as God is love, He loves us and will not make us do things that would take us to sin (to something bad). We need to work for them (purity and humility) to say yes to God and not to anything else. Humility makes us see we are not pure, and that we need to obey God for our “pureness”, humility makes us see the need of God (we cannot “see” God on our own, but of course we need to decide). So that’s the importance of purity, purity of thought, purity of intention, purity on acting the commandments, purity of interiority. Only the sincerity (truthfulness of my ways) of where my sight really is, will take me to God or not. We should understand this life is just temporary, so we need to understand what is truly important.

Do I “suffer” the gifts and miss the given. Shouldn’t God be the true joy of our life, do we see it that way, or do we see God in the pleasures we get, or can get?

“There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death.” Proverbs 16:25

Understandings may or may not make you act love, as weaknesses sometimes define our decisions. That’s why true love can only be acted, only the sincerity (pureness) in Love will make you act it, as that is the “only option” you will have (as the other option will not be love). Love confers responsibility of acting the belief (Gods laws and standards), the faith, the hope, the love.

“For through the Spirit, by faith, we await the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.” Galatians 5, 5-6

For if sin wouldn’t feel good would you think that we would sin. If sin would hurt you as soon as you did it, would you still do it? Sin works as grace works (in the means that you accept it and let it), sin “feels good” but then it “kills”, but grace works “slow” (uphill) but then it gives life.

Love gives life, that’s the ultimate joy. God gives life to our souls to our spirit when we put Him as north, but it takes time (our hearts are so hard that it takes time to see “good”). Then the “flesh” takes the place it should have, the one that it can only have, the one that it always has had.

 

[edlinked]

“Therefore, sin must not reign over your mortal bodies so that you obey their desires. And do not present the parts of your bodies to sin as weapons for wickedness, but present yourselves to God as raised from the dead to life and the parts of your bodies to God as weapons for righteousness. For sin is not to have any power over you, since you are not under the law but under grace.” Romans 6, 12-14

“Like obedient children, do not act in compliance with the desires of your former ignorance 8 but, as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in every aspect of your conduct, for it is written, "Be holy because I (am) holy. “ 1 Peter 1, 14-16

The person is made up of the body, the soul, and the Spirit (that you decide to accept or not). The body weighs down the soul as the souls joy is to go back to his Creator. But the creator wanted the body to weigh down the soul, because He wanted the person to stay in the world for some time. Now, the person decides what he wants. Does he decides for the things of the body or does he decides for the things of the soul? The problem is that the body and soul act like one, for if something gives pleasure to the body, the soul seems to enjoy it too (to some degree of course). But there is a catch, the person can become a slave of their pleasures, as the soul tries to look for that “eternal happiness” and when the body seems to give it, the soul can get tricked by the body that its pleasures are “happiness”. But the soul, after a while, can get, that with the pleasures of the body it seems it never gets fulfilled, and it only gets to want more, but the body cannot give more for then it becomes even dangerous for it. And if the body dies the soul stops getting the pleasures it thinks are “happiness”. Then the soul starts to understand that when it loses sight of where it comes from, it loses sight of where it needs to go. It can get tricked by the body but the body, can only do what it wants, if it puts its north on earthly things. When the north is on the Creator the person understands that the important thing, is the Creator, the souls has its north where it should, and the body even though “hesitant” at first, complies as it understands that even though it is from the world, it too, was created by the Creator, therefore only because the body is on its playground it cannot get lost in it, it shouldn’t get lost in it, for God is the beginning and the end.

Pleasures are magnets for taking things for our own convenience. For if it gives me pleasure it sure is good and right, for I want to continue receiving the way that only I want. For then what happens if you like something that you know is not right, which action should be acted, the one that gives you the pleasure or the one that you should restrain. If you get accustomed on always doing what you want, you will probably continue doing it even if you know something is wrong. But the value that stands above, will be “your pleasure”, which equals to “your happiness” (although this was done by yourself and not because that’s the way it is). For sin feels good if not it wouldn’t be tempting. Sin makes wrong and can make it like if it was right. But only God can change a wrong to right, for you will stop doing wrong. (Something good can’t be bad if it is “truly good”, and something bad can’t be good if it is intrinsically bad).

I believe that in our lives we need to be sincere with ourselves, in the sense that we understand what we want from something.

I state this, because in my understandings, there is no way we can attain love as virtue without sacrifices. And this sacrifices cannot be done if we believe that pleasure can be felt “carelessly”, and believe that we can master it without “sacrificing it”.

Purity is a difficult thing to attain, and I believe it will only be attained if we work for it.

“Put to death, then, the parts of you that are earthly: immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and the greed that is idolatry.” Colossians 3:5

“Beloved, let us love one another, because love is of God; everyone who loves is begotten by God and knows God. Whoever is without love does not know God, for God is love.” 1 john 4, 7-8

“In contrast, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.” Galatians 5, 22-23