Third Commandment Sabbath observance

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In lengthy ongoing discussions with a 7th day adventist,I can’t adequately convince him on how we can change Sabbath observance from 7th to 1st day of week.
I’ve sought and found many good Catholic arguments, but he does not buy them. The argument that itis a ceremonial change, like circumcision, dietry rules, synagogue attendance etc.which were discarded by the apostles and in scripture. The fact that early Christians in Acts worshiped on the 1st day, and found Sunday more appropriate, related to the resurrection,does not convince him.
The position he maintains is that, unlike Jewish ceremonial observances, the 3rd(their 2nd) commandmentwas written on stone with the finger of God, and hence can never be changed. In addition, he quotes the late Cardinal Gibbons as confirming that, nowhere in the bible, is there a teaching allowing the transfer from 7th to 1st day.
As a related issue , he further accuses us of changing the 1st commandment by dropping the reference to idols.
Any ideas in how I can further justify this? Thanks and God bless. James William
 
I don’t know what Cardinal Gibbons said; but, to my knowledge, it is correct that Scripture does not explicitly teach that Sabbath observance is to be replaced with observance of Sunday. There is testimony in Scripture that verifies the Christians gathered to celebrate the Eucharist on the first day - the Lord’s Day.

For Catholics, it is belief and trust in the authority Jesus gave to His apostles – and especially Peter to whom He gave the keys of His kingdom. In speaking to Peter, he doesn’t limit the area of his authority. He says “Whatever you bind on earth… whatever you loose…” (Mt. 16:29) We accept the change because the Church teaches it. I don’t know what authoritative basis the Protestants hold for validating their practice of observing Sunday versus the Sabbath Day.

When you read Exodus 31:12-18, you get the sense of the command regarding the Sabbath as applying to Israel and the covenant God was establishing thru Moses.
And the LORD said to Moses, "Say to the people of Israel… Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the sabbath, observing the sabbath throughout their generations, as a perpetual covenant. It is a sign for ever between me and the people of Israel… " And He gave to Moses, when He had made an end of speaking with him upon Mount Sinai, the two tables of the testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.
I think the 3rd Commandment is the only one of the Ten Commandments that God specifically ties into being a covenental sign between Israel and Himself.

Of course, with Jesus the New Covenant is established.
 
Personally, I don’t think you can argue those points with SDAs. The problem is that they reject the authority of the Church - they deny that Jesus gave authority to the Apostles.

The insistence on the observation of the Sabbath is, obviously, central to their doctrine, so it’s unlikely that your discussion-mate is going to cede that point (especially since the final decisions came after the close of the New Testament canon).

The commandment question is a bit different, though, since in fact we do not “drop” idols from the Decalogue. The question of the Ten Commandments is - which of the 22 “command” verbs in the Exodus passage are “the Ten” and which are supporting statements? We understand that “make no graven images” is not a separate commandment from “Have no other gods” but is part of the detail of that commandment - and one reason is because there are a number of places in Scripture where God either commands the making of a graven image (the serpent in Numbers, the bulls that hold the sea in the sanctuary, the cherubim above the tabernacle). It’s worshipping the graven image, giving the image or the god it purports to represent homage or credit due only to God, that constitutes idolatry (as with the golden calf).

The thing about the SDAs is that their whole chapel of cards rests on the writings of Ellen White - they regard her as a prophet and that’s the basis of what they believe, insofar as what they believe is different from what other Christians (especially Protestant Christians) believe. And the question is - why? What basis do they have to believe that HER interpretations and revelations are valid and those of the apostles and early church fathers are not? Who determined that they were, and what were the credentials of the deciders?Apostolic authority is the key.
 
James_William said:
In lengthy ongoing discussions with a 7th day adventist,I can’t adequately convince him on how we can change Sabbath observance from 7th to 1st day of week.
I’ve sought and found many good Catholic arguments, but he does not buy them. The argument that itis a ceremonial change, like circumcision, dietry rules, synagogue attendance etc.which were discarded by the apostles and in scripture. The fact that early Christians in Acts worshiped on the 1st day, and found Sunday more appropriate, related to the resurrection,does not convince him.
The position he maintains is that, unlike Jewish ceremonial observances, the 3rd(their 2nd) commandmentwas written on stone with the finger of God, and hence can never be changed. In addition, he quotes the late Cardinal Gibbons as confirming that, nowhere in the bible, is there a teaching allowing the transfer from 7th to 1st day.
As a related issue , he further accuses us of changing the 1st commandment by dropping the reference to idols.
Any ideas in how I can further justify this? Thanks and God bless. James William
Click to expand...
Well, for Christians, Jesus is God. So, God/Jesus can change things. And because the early Christian community started worshiping/celebrating on Sunday vs. Saturday, that was due to God’s/Jesus’ revelation.
 
When I hit this point with SDA’s, JW and LDS, I pull out my ace in the hole. I ask them where the Bible came from. Since they say that because it is not in the Bible, blah blah blah, challenge them on the authority of the Bible.

How do you know it is the word of God? What about the books like the Didache and the Epistle of Barnabus. Why are those not in the Bible. I point out that if the Church does not have the authority needed to compile the Bible, maybe we flubbed it somewhere else along the way. Challenge them to prove to you that everything that should be in the Bible is there and that nothing is missing. When they ask you for the same thing, show them the councils that help codify the canon. Point to the 1100 years of undisputed canonical content. Ask if God would allow His people to be led astray after He went through all the trouble of bringing us back.

At the end of the day, only the Holy Spirit is going to move them. I just try to give them as much information as I can and let God do the rest.
 
Thank you all for your responses. It does seem an unwinnable argument, purely from scripture, without going via the path of authority given to Peter and his successors as you suggested.
You are right in that we can only hope that feeding back a lot of true Catholic teaching, to counter their mistaken and untruthful claims about the Church, may start them thinking.
I have given back tons of responses to their belief in death of the soul at the time of death, and also to correct some of their mistaken and deceitful claims against the Church. You are probably aware how outlandish some of their accusations are.
In the course of our volumes of back and forth correspondence, I was sent several DVDs from their apologist, Dr. Walter Veith. Has anyone heard of him, and if so, do you know of any recorded debates that he might have had with a Catholic Apologist? I would love to see one. His deceptions are unbelievable, scandalous, and he must know they are false.
However, he would be very persuasive to those who have no instruction in real Catholic teaching and practices. It would be a different matter if he had to stand up to a decent apologist. Again, thanks to all for responses to my first posting.
 
James_William said:
Thank you all for your responses. It does seem an unwinnable argument, purely from scripture, without going via the path of authority given to Peter and his successors as you suggested
Click to expand...
I would challenge that conclusion. The New Testament is full of witness to the importance of Sunday to the earliest Christians. Sunday, not Saturday (the Sabbath). Sunday the first day, the 8th day, the Lord’s day. Look at what happened on Sunday: resurrection, ascension, commissioning of Apostles, appearances of the risen Christ.

In that light, I’d argue that the authority given to Peter had little (or nothing) to do with the Christians worshipping on Sunday (instead of the sabbath, Saturday, the 7th day).
 
I’m not Catholic - with that caveat, based upon my reading of the Catechism and some other papal and other Church writings, I do not believe the official Catholic doctrine is that the Sabbath was moved from Saturday to Sunday. Rather, the Sabbath (which will always be the 7th day - Saturday) is fulfilled in Christ (per Hebrews) as part of the Old Covenant. Sunday, the Lord’s Day, was from the early Church years, a day of fellowship, and then prayer, among Christians where the Eucharist was shared.

Following the pattern of “rest” from the Old Testament, Sunday began to be celebrated with many of the same (but not all of the same) observance formerly associated with the Saturday Sabbath. But, Sunday is not the “Sabbath” with a capital “S”.

I’m a Jewish believer (protestant Christian) - to me the Saturday sabbath will always be special - but my rest in is Christ every day. Sunday to me is a memory of the resurrection and day to fellowship with other believers and great opportunity to worship God (which we do every day).

Blessings,

Brian
 
James, to better understand the Sabbath you must first ask yourself, what is the Sabbath?

You must answer this question in it’s most simplest form, then you will see how to defend the Christion tradition of worshiping on Sunday.

In Christ
Joao
 
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