Third Order Regular?

[Catherine_W]

Hello,

I am new to learning about religious orders. I have been doing many searches online and have come to understand that there are three orders. Here is what I have gathered, please correct me if any of this is wrong.

First Order Religious - religious men that take Solemn Vows and these men can be cloistered (monks) or can conduct work “in the world” (friars).

Second Order Religious- religious women that take Solemn Vows and these women can be either cloistered (nuns) or do work "in the world” (sisters).

Third order: (has 2 categories - but both are considered laity)

-Third Order Secular – lay men and women that take a Solemn Promise, they can be single or married and live in and work in “the world”.

-Third Order Regular – lay men and women who are single and they take Simple Vows, they live in convents but do work “in the world” or can be cloistered.

Ordained Priests and Deacons can also be part of the first order religious or third order regular.

I guess I am having a hard time understanding what the difference is between the 1st / 2nd Orders and Third Order Regular. Can someone help me out?
Does it have to do with Solemn versus Simple Vows (and what’s the difference)?
Does it have to do with the amount of involvement “in the world” – and if so what’s the dividing line?
What exactly is the difference between “Religious” and “Lay” – the Third Order Regular really blurs the line for me.
I am just confused and want a clearer understanding of this. I would appreciate your help so much!

(p.s. I am married and therefore the only order that could apply to me is the third order secular --which I really want to learn about–but for now I just want to understand the basics of Orders in general)

Thanks so much and God bless you!

 

[StarArien]

(p.s. I am married and therefore the only order that could apply to me is the third order secular --which I really want to learn about–but for now I just want to understand the basics of Orders in general)

Somebody can guide us on this??

 

[nkmeck]

The short answer is, it’s confusing. Originally the Third Order were mostly lay people. Eventually it evolved into an order of religious. I’m very close to a number Fransican Friary’s of the Third Order Regular, and they are men of God. Here’s some links to a few T.O.R. websites that might be able to give you some history.

This link will probalby be the most helpful franciscanstor.org/orders.htm

franciscanstor.org/history.htm

torsisters.org/

 

[Cloisters]

“Third Order”–following typical use–now is being used to imply that a lay person is associated with a religious congregation. Just how they do it is up to the congregation.

The more famous “Third Order Regulars” are the Dominicans (like the Nashville Dominicans); the Franciscans (like the Allegheny or Glen Riddle Franciscans); and the Carmelites (like the Corpus Christi Carmelites). “Regular” comes from “regula” which is Latin for Rule, and indicates that they are vowed religious, albeit simple vows.

First orders–always the priests and brothers.

Second orders–always the cloistered nuns.

Third orders–always the religious in simple vows and the laity.

And the proper use of the term pertains to the five great orders: Augustinians; Dominicans; Franciscans; Carmelites; Servites (I think I have this right–there has always been some debate).

Those religious institutes who don’t have “third orders” have associates or confraternities.

HTH.

Blessings,
Cloisters
Lay Passionist

 

[Sister_Rose]

The Third Orders Regular started out from Third Order Secular. Basically it came about when third order seculars wanted to live together in community and live celibate lives.
The biggest difference that I know of between solomn and simple vows relates to poverty. As someone in simple vows I can own things, money, property but I may not administer it. Someone in solemn vows may not have their own money or property.
For womenreligious, only nuns take solemn vows, active sisters take simple vows.
Most of the Franciscan, Dominican and Camelite sisters you would probably know would be third order regular.

 

[Catherine_W]

So … this is what I have now gathered:

1st Order is for men either cloistered (monks) or active (friars)

2nd Order is only for cloistered nuns (so no active sisters)

3rd Order Regular
for women - it’s for active sisters (no cloistered nuns)
for men - it’s for active friars (no cloistered monks)

The main difference is the Solemn versus Simple Vows where the big distinction is in the vow of poverty.

Did I get that right?

The difference when looking at women is pretty clear to me, but the distinction between a 1st order friar versus a 3rd order friar is very hard to grasp. (any more help on this?)

 

[Catherine_W]

Also… to ask a few more related questions:

Can priests in religious orders rise in the hierarchy of the church, for example can they become bishops for their religious orders, and then can they possibly become cardinals and then pope?

and this may be a separate issue, but I thought I would still ask.
What about Catholics that are in different rites (for example the Eastern Right of the Catholic Church). Do they have separate religious orders and can their priests (either religious or diocesan) enter the Church hierarchy and become cardinals and pope?

Sorry if these are very basic questions.

And thanks for all your help

 

[GemmaRose]

Canon Law describes the various kinds of vows as follows:

BOOK IV : THE SANCTIFYING OFFICE OF THE CHURCH (Cann. 834 – 848)
PART II : THE OTHER ACTS OF DIVINE WORSHIP
TITLE V: VOWS AND OATHS (Cann. 1191 - 1204)
CHAPTER I : VOWS​

TITLE V: VOWS AND OATHS (Cann. 1191 - 1204)

CHAPTER I : VOWS

Can. 1191 §1 A vow is a deliberate and free promise made to God, concerning some good which is possible and better. The virtue of religion requires that it be fulfilled.

§2 Unless they are prohibited by law, all who have an appropriate use of reason are capable of making a vow.

§3 A vow made as a result of grave and unjust fear or of deceit is by virtue of the law itself invalid.

Can. 1192 §1 A vow is public if it is accepted in the name of the Church by a lawful Superior; otherwise, it is private.

§2 It is solemn if it is recognised by the Church as such; otherwise, it is simple.

§3 It is personal if it promises an action by the person making the vow; real, if it promises some thing; mixed, if it has both a personal and a real aspect.

A person who already has taken a vow - i.e., marriage vows - cannot take vows in a religious institute unless the spouse has died or the marriage annulled by the Church (cannot become a nun, religious sister or brother, priest in a religious order, or diocesan priest) nor take vows in a secular institute.

Therefore, for those who wish to deepen their spiritual life, there are various pious associations and third orders. Probably, the most well known of the third orders is the Franciscan. There, members can take promises (not vows) to live according to the evangelical counsels of poverty, chastity and obedience as they apply to that person’s state of life. The formation period teaches how these promises are lived in the world. I believe the Carmelites and the Dominicans also have Associates, which I think is like a third order, but I’m not sure. I don’t know if they accept married women, or only single women, and I don’t know if they have male associates.

There are some secular institutes which admit married people, however the only one I know that does (to find out about others, I would suggest contactng the Vocation Office of your diocese) is my own Passionist Secular Institute (Lay Missionaries of the Passion). Although married members do not take the vows as the celibate members do (since they are already vowed to thieir spouse), they can become members of our Institute if both husband and wife want to come in together.

I hope this helps a little.

 

[odubhghail]

Dear Catherine
The main difference between men who are members of first and third orders regular would be the type of vows. Third orders would, I believe, generally take simple vows, which means a lesser degree of enclosure, and also the fact that acts which are contrary to the spirit of the vows are valid, if illicit. With solemn vows, any act contrary to the vows would be invalid. Furthermore, the solemn vow of poverty means-no ownership of anything. The simple vow means one cannot use one’s property without permission. In the case of people who entered very young, I suppose the distinction in the case of the vow of poverty is irrelevant.
Regarding your questions about whether an ordained religious order member can become a bishop, the answer is yes.
The Eastern rites don’t have as many active religious congregations per se, but they do exist. The Ukrainian rite Redemptorists, for example, are a province of a Roman rite congregation, located in Western Canada, ministering to Ukrainian Catholics there. There are members of various Roman rite communities who are also bi-ritual, who can say mass in the Roman or an Eastern rite.
There are Eastern rite monasteries of Benedictine monks and nuns, Discalced Carmelite nuns, and Poor Clare nuns, groups which originated from the Western tradition.
Most religious in the Eastern rites whose communities are of Eastern rite origin, are monastics; each monastery of monks or of nuns is independent. In Ontario, we have one monastery of Studite monks in Woodstock, which is very visible, due to the prayer lighthouse which is visible from Highway 401.
All bishops in the Eastern rites are members of religious communities.
Hope this is somewhat helpful.

 

[Sister_Rose]

So … this is what I have now gathered:

1st Order is for men either cloistered (monks) or active (friars)

2nd Order is only for cloistered nuns (so no active sisters)

3rd Order Regular
for women - it’s for active sisters (no cloistered nuns)
for men - it’s for active friars (no cloistered monks)

The main difference is the Solemn versus Simple Vows where the big distinction is in the vow of poverty.

Did I get that right?

The difference when looking at women is pretty clear to me, but the distinction between a 1st order friar versus a 3rd order friar is very hard to grasp. (any more help on this?)

It is a little harder to see the difference with the mens orders. But one more difference might be with respect to the praying of the Divine Office. Now I am not entirely sure of this but from what I have seen, it seems to be the case. We as Sisters in simple vows pray Morning, Evening and Night prayer. We are not bound to pray the entire office as cloistered communities and Priests are. This may be the case for the men also. However, priests in the third order regular would most likely be bound to pray the entire office as priests. It could be that particular communities some particular reasons, like if they have a lot of priests in the order, may have it in their constitutions that they pray the whole office.
One more thing that I am pretty sure has changed since Vatican two regarding simple versus solemn vows. It used to be that a nun, or someone in solemn vows, could not validly enter marriage, but that a sister, or someone in simple vows could validly marry but it would be sinful. To the best of my knowledge, it is no longer considered a valid marriage for those under simple vows. Which to me makes sense, because marriage is a sacrament. How could one validly enter a sacrament sinfully.

 

[Cloisters]

.
One more thing that I am pretty sure has changed since Vatican two regarding simple versus solemn vows. It used to be that a nun, or someone in solemn vows, could not validly enter marriage, but that a sister, or someone in simple vows could validly marry but it would be sinful. To the best of my knowledge, it is no longer considered a valid marriage for those under simple vows. Which to me makes sense, because marriage is a sacrament. How could one validly enter a sacrament sinfully.

I find this surprising. Of all the ex-priests and ex-sisters I’ve known who have married, they were able to do so licitly.

Something else to confuse me today!

Blessings,
Cloisters

 

[Sister_Rose]

I find this surprising. Of all the ex-priests and ex-sisters I’ve known who have married, they were able to do so licitly.

Something else to confuse me today!

Sorry, I should clarify. It depends on whether they were still under vows. If they were released from their vows before marrying, that is a different situation.

 

[NMJenny]

A person who already has taken a vow - i.e., marriage vows - cannot take vows in a religious institute unless the spouse has died or the marriage annulled by the Church (cannot become a nun, religious sister or brother, priest in a religious order, or diocesan priest) nor take vows in a secular institute.

This is not always true–a friend of mine, who was divorced but had not applied for an annullment, became a cloistered Carmelite; in fact she just recently celebrated the twenty-fifth anniversary of her vows.

However, there’s no denying that getting permission to enter the cloister was complicated for her. In the first place, her (divorced) husband had to give his permission for her to take vows, which he did. And I believe that the final approval for her entrance had to come from Rome, although I’m not 100% sure on that point…

 

[GemmaRose]

This is not always true–a friend of mine, who was divorced but had not applied for an annullment, became a cloistered Carmelite; in fact she just recently celebrated the twenty-fifth anniversary of her vows.

However, there’s no denying that getting permission to enter the cloister was complicated for her. In the first place, her (divorced) husband had to give his permission for her to take vows, which he did. And I believe that the final approval for her entrance had to come from Rome, although I’m not 100% sure on that point…

I know that if I wanted to get married, I would need to be released from my vows and I would have to apply to Rome.

Possibly the Carmelites accepted her as a postulant before all the “paperwork” was in order. It’s usually at least 8 years between entry and a final profession.

 

[NMJenny]

Possibly the Carmelites accepted her as a postulant before all the “paperwork” was in order. It’s usually at least 8 years between entry and a final profession.

Actually, the Carmel she was entering asked her to wait until the final paperwork was received (which seems sensible, as it would be cruel to admit her as a postulant and then have to send her back home again if Rome refused permission.)

And she was a postulant for one year, a novice for two years, and spent three years as a temporary professed. I don’t remember whether her temporary vows were for three years, or only for one year and she renewed them every year–but the total time from when she entered the order until she made her final profession was six years. There was a public ceremony about a month after she made her final profession, in which she received the black veil–I was there, and it was a very moving ceremony…

 

[GemmaRose]

Actually, the Carmel she was entering asked her to wait until the final paperwork was received (which seems sensible, as it would be cruel to admit her as a postulant and then have to send her back home again if Rome refused permission.)

And she was a postulant for one year, a novice for two years, and spent three years as a temporary professed. I don’t remember whether her temporary vows were for three years, or only for one year and she renewed them every year–but the total time from when she entered the order until she made her final profession was six years. There was a public ceremony about a month after she made her final profession, in which she received the black veil–I was there, and it was a very moving ceremony…

You were there!?!? Wow!