Third order vocation

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FYI, as far as I know, only the Secular Order of Discalced Carmelites may take vows of chastity and obedience.

They are optional, one year after definitive promises are made.

Regards

Jim OCDS
 
JimR-OCDS said:
FYI, as far as I know, only the Secular Order of Discalced Carmelites may take vows of chastity and obedience.

They are optional, one year after definitive promises are made.

Regards

Jim OCDS
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Actually, you may be talking about absolute chastity and obedience. Secular Franciscans promise poverty, chastity and obedience within their state of life, which is entirely appropriate for the lay state.

If a person wants to make a formal vow of chastity &/or obedience, it’s possible for Secular Franciscans, among others. But one has to be really, really careful of such things. This should not be done unless the possibility of a double contradicting vow is NOT AT ALL POSSIBLE. For instance, a person making a vow of chastity cannot be married because it contradicts the marriage vow.

In fact a person wishing to do this must have the PROPER motivation, adequate spiritual maturity and be either unable to marry or willing to completely and non-revokably forgo all marriage and sexual activity for the rest of their lives. This is serious business and not to be taken lightly or ideologically.

It must be CLEARLY UNDERSTOOD that a vocation to a third order is NOT a mini version of a vocation to the 1st or 2nd orders. It’s NOT merely the junior version. It’s a vocation in it’s own right. It has its own everything. And it’s complete as it stands. Mimicry of the other vocations doesn’t make it any more complete because it’s already complete as it is.
 
Third orders use promises instead of vows at the explicit direction of the Church. It’s been that way for centuries. This is not because laypeople are less, or weak. This is because the Church wishes to protect us from contradictory binding vows. And because people who can demonstrate living chastity, poverty and obedience within a lay state of life are desperately needed in this world.

It is necessary, for instance, for laypeople to touch money. This sounds trivial but it’s an explicit violation of the poverty vow as historically understood in the Franciscan order. Even though it’s been re-interpreted now for friars, the level of money-handling required of laypeople, even OFS laypeople, exceeds that allowed by the 1st order.

If you have to work and your job requires handling money, which most do in some form, you can do that and still be an OFS, practicing poverty within your state of life. This is particular to the lay state of life and keeps you from moral harm. This is the Church’s intention.

The same sort of reasoning applies to obedience and chastity.

It’s not a deprivation to make promises instead of vows. It’s a privilege to be endowed with the ability and grace to go out into the world within your state in life and serve the Lord.
 
iloveangels said:
Actually, you may be talking about absolute chastity and obedience. Secular Franciscans promise poverty, chastity and obedience within their state of life, which is entirely appropriate for the lay state.

If a person wants to make a formal vow of chastity &/or obedience, it’s possible for Secular Franciscans, among others. But one has to be really, really careful of such things. This should not be done unless the possibility of a double contradicting vow is NOT AT ALL POSSIBLE. For instance, a person making a vow of chastity cannot be married because it contradicts the marriage vow. . .
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Members of the O.C.D.S. may make Simple (not Formal) Vows of Chastity and Obedience. They don’t preclude the the married state. Such vows are optional. One must be a fully Professed member (i.e., having made the Definitive Promise) for at least a year - preferably longer - before beginning the discernment necessary for the Vows.
 
FCEGM said:
Members of the O.C.D.S. may make Simple (not Formal) Vows of Chastity and Obedience. They don’t preclude the the married state. Such vows are optional. One must be a fully Professed member (i.e., having made the Definitive Promise) for at least a year - preferably longer - before beginning the discernment necessary for the Vows.
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This.

👍

Jim
 
iloveangels said:
For instance, a person making a vow of chastity cannot be married because it contradicts the marriage vow.
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Actually it doesn’t violate the marriage vow. A vow of celibacy would but not a vow of chastity doesn’t. Chastity means you are faithful to your state in life, if you are single it means celibacy, if you are married, only with your spouse, etc. Yes, members of OFS may take vows but it isn’t encouraged or required.
 
Marauder said:
Actually it doesn’t violate the marriage vow. A vow of celibacy would but not a vow of chastity doesn’t. Chastity means you are faithful to your state in life, if you are single it means celibacy, if you are married, only with your spouse, etc. Yes, members of OFS may take vows but it isn’t encouraged or required.
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Correct.

A vow or promise of chastity for a 3rd order member who is married means, you live your life according to the teachings of the Catholic Church, when it comes to sexual relations with your spouse and your life. This is required for all Catholics, but a 3rd order member makes a promise or even a vow to do so.

Jim
 
Marauder said:
Actually it doesn’t violate the marriage vow. A vow of celibacy would but not a vow of chastity doesn’t. Chastity means you are faithful to your state in life, if you are single it means celibacy, if you are married, only with your spouse, etc. Yes, members of OFS may take vows but it isn’t encouraged or required.
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That’s my understanding too.
 
FCEGM said:
Members of the O.C.D.S. may make Simple (not Formal) Vows of Chastity and Obedience. They don’t preclude the the married state. Such vows are optional. One must be a fully Professed member (i.e., having made the Definitive Promise) for at least a year - preferably longer - before beginning the discernment necessary for the Vows.
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When the vows are made – what you mean there to use the canonical terms is they are not “solemn” nor are they “public” vows (though I have read one argument that tended to look at them more in that vein…though it was only an argument) but more of the private vow nature (though really vows) (see CIC 1192)
 
JimR-OCDS said:
FYI, as far as I know, only the Secular Order of Discalced Carmelites may take vows of chastity and obedience.

They are optional, one year after definitive promises are made.

Regards

Jim OCDS
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To quote Yoda (with adaptation):

….there are others

I do not recall at the moment which ones but as I recall from my research there are at least 1 or 2 others that at least have somewhat an option of vows.

(or I suppose I should add – 3 since the Third Order Carmelites also have the option of vows…not only the discalced)
 
Bookcat said:
When the vows are made – what you mean there to use the canonical terms is they are not “solemn” nor are they “public” vows (though I have read one argument that tended to look at them more in that vein…though it was only an argument) but more of the private vow nature (though really vows) (see CIC 1192)
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The Vows are made before community, but are “strictly personal,” as the constitution states, so they remain as simple or private vows.

Jim
 
JimR-OCDS said:
The Vows are made before community, but are “strictly personal,” as the constitution states, so they remain as simple or private vows.

Jim
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Yes I agree (I imagine though they are made before the moderator or something too). I was only noting that I had an argument (but that is on the order of the speculative).

Simple and private.
 
Bookcat said:
Yes I agree (I imagine though they are made before the moderator or something too). I was only noting that I had an argument (but that is on the order of the speculative).

Simple and private.
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The Spiritual Assistant, i.e. the Friar of the group administers the rite, before the community. Only a pries of the OCD order can do this.

Jim
 
TrueLight said:
What is the right of admission? Is this after the novitiate?
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If I remember the order of the ceremonies correctly “Right of admission” is for a person that has completed the Inquiry process and is entering the Candidacy process.

There are three phases to initial formation in SFO/OFS.

Visitation
Inquiry
Candidacy

At end of Candidacy provided you still feel called and the fraternity agrees, you can choose to do a temporary profession or have your permanent profession.
 
Marauder said:
If I remember the order of the ceremonies correctly “Right of admission” is for a person that has completed the Inquiry process and is entering the Candidacy process.

There are three phases to initial formation in SFO/OFS.

Visitation
Inquiry
Candidacy

At end of Candidacy provided you still feel called and the fraternity agrees, you can choose to do a temporary profession or have your permanent profession.
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This is true, although they use different words now in the latest rules.
 
Luigi_Daniele said:
This is true, although they use different words now in the latest rules.
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Actually those are the current terms for at least in the US. Official terms (other then candidate which is listed in the constitution) and lengths of each phase are determined by national statutes and roughly parallel the phases for the 1st Order.

See the following link under formation:
nafra-sfo.org/statutes.html

If you are talking novitiate vs. candidacy etc. you can get into long arguments as to the whys and the werefores associated with it. They have started referring to visitation as orientation, but I haven’t heard people say you should officially refer to it as orientation vs. visitation. This was mainly done in an attempt to come up with something to give a more formal training to people that are in that stage.
 
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