Third year theology student needs help! Purgatory?

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Chantelle1988

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Hi, im a third year theology student, studying in England, hopefully going on to train to be an RE teacher next year, but only if i do well in my degree which i wont do unless i kick *** on this dissertation!!

My dissertation is on modern perception of Catholic doctrine, with focus on the issue of Purgatory as a case study, so i guess my question is what are all your individual beliefs on purgatory? what do you know about it? how do you feel about its inclusion as Catholic doctrine?

Any answers i get would really really help me with my dissertation, its a tricky topic that iv chosen as Catholicism is not taught at my University, and so any help from my tutors is really limited, you guys are my last hope!!

Thanks, Chantelle
 
I believe exactly what the Church teaches about purgatory which, admittedly, is not very much.
  1. Those who die in God’s friendship but require purification of the temporal effects of their sins or who have not completed the punishment their sins have warranted go to Purgatory.
  2. The souls in Purgatory benefit from our prayers, Masses, fasts, and alms.
  3. In Purgatory, there will be cleansing by fire.
In light of the fact that Purgatory is official Church dogma, I of course accept it as I would any other of the Church’s teachings.
 
First I would suggest how the teaching is explained these days. See these sections of the Catechism:

1030-1032
vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a12.htm

I also think Pope Benedict XVI gives a good explanation of it in his encyclical Spe Salvi and how it is relevant:

Check out paragraphs 45-48:
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20071130_spe-salvi_en.html

Here’s how I look at it. The existence of a final purification for the friends of God before entering Heaven is a truth we know by faith. It exists even if no one wants it to or thinks it should.

For me, in one sense it is comforting to know in His mercy God makes us perfect when we are open to it, but do not achieve perfection in this life. It is at the same time a good deterrent from sin and an incentive to do good as we will have to still answer for those sins we commit. Purgatory is a demonstation of the harmony between God’s mercy and justice.

Likewise, as Pope Benedict explained, this truth also shows that we are not divided by death. Rather we can still love in a concrete way those who have died. We can help them make satisfaction for their sins, thus lessening their pain and bringing them closer to God–which is what true love is all about.🙂
 
thanks a lot for replying, i have to say you seem pretty knowledgeable on Catholicism, more so than some of the Professors at my University, your help is greatly appreciated 🙂
 
everything in heaven is pure and beautiful. even if we have the smallest of venial sin we are not completely pure so how could we go directly to heaven. there has to be some kind of cleansing process. several verses in the bible tell us this
 
Chantelle1988 said:
Hi, im a third year theology student, studying in England, hopefully going on to train to be an RE teacher next year, but only if i do well in my degree which i wont do unless i kick *** on this dissertation!!

My dissertation is on modern perception of Catholic doctrine, with focus on the issue of Purgatory as a case study, so i guess my question is what are all your individual beliefs on purgatory? what do you know about it? how do you feel about its inclusion as Catholic doctrine?

Any answers i get would really really help me with my dissertation, its a tricky topic that iv chosen as Catholicism is not taught at my University, and so any help from my tutors is really limited, you guys are my last hope!!

Thanks, Chantelle
Click to expand...
catholic.com/library/purgatory.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0010sbs.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0103fea2.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0511sbs.asp
 
Hi Chantelle…and welcome ! 👋

You haven’t chosen the easiest subject, but it is a most fulfilling one the more enlightened we become about it.

We had a 2 page exchange in these forums a short while back concerning a particular thought-provoking question on Purgatory. You might like it… something just a little bit different from the regular… at this CAF link:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=278667

As most likely contained in the related links posted previously by fellow members in your thread, there are scriptural references upon which the dogma of Purgatory is based. It wouldn’t hurt to quote these in your work. If I were writing on Purgatory, ultimately the thought I would try my utmost to convey is how much these souls count on and need our prayers.

God Bless.
 
thankyou so much to everyone replying, it was very helpful to me and has given me some new and exciting ideas for my dissertation
 
I have already posted on this particular topic on this forum, and was pleased and grateful for the replys i recieved, however i decided to post again, this time with a few different questions. After a few days solid work, using the (name removed by moderator)ut provided in the previous thread i have managed to complete the first section of my dissertation which is concerned with what purgatory actually is, the history of its development, the official church teaching and its scriptural support.
However what i am really interested in, and the purpose of this dissertation is to discover how purgatory is recieved in modern times, so i have a few more questions or all those kind enough to help:

-Do you find purgatory is something that is commonly preached and taught at church in modern times? where did you gain your knowledge, if any, of purgatory?
-Do you think it is something that is still relevant? should it still be included in official church dogma?
Do you think it is the case that many people are now becoming selective about what they believe, preferring to think only of heaven and disregarding the notion of hell and purgatory?

if you could help me answer these questions i would be most grateful 🙂

Chantelle
 
Chantelle1988 said:
Hi, im a third year theology student, studying in England, hopefully going on to train to be an RE teacher next year, but only if i do well in my degree which i wont do unless i kick *** on this dissertation!!

My dissertation is on modern perception of Catholic doctrine, with focus on the issue of Purgatory as a case study, so i guess my question is what are all your individual beliefs on purgatory? what do you know about it? how do you feel about its inclusion as Catholic doctrine?

Any answers i get would really really help me with my dissertation, its a tricky topic that iv chosen as Catholicism is not taught at my University, and so any help from my tutors is really limited, you guys are my last hope!!

Thanks, Chantelle
Click to expand...
For myself, personally, I understand purgatory as an experience of the soul after death rather than a ‘place’. It is purification so that the love of God may manifest within us more and more until we experience the beatific vision of God.
 
Chantelle1988 said:
I have already posted on this particular topic on this forum, and was pleased and grateful for the replys i recieved, however i decided to post again, this time with a few different questions. After a few days solid work, using the (name removed by moderator)ut provided in the previous thread i have managed to complete the first section of my dissertation which is concerned with what purgatory actually is, the history of its development, the official church teaching and its scriptural support.
However what i am really interested in, and the purpose of this dissertation is to discover how purgatory is recieved in modern times, so i have a few more questions or all those kind enough to help:

-Do you find purgatory is something that is commonly preached and taught at church in modern times? where did you gain your knowledge, if any, of purgatory?
-Do you think it is something that is still relevant? should it still be included in official church dogma?
Do you think it is the case that many people are now becoming selective about what they believe, preferring to think only of heaven and disregarding the notion of hell and purgatory?

if you could help me answer these questions i would be most grateful 🙂

Chantelle
Click to expand...
The main change since my childhood (Baltimore Catechism era) is that purgatory is taught more as a process than as a place. It is also taught, in my parish at any rate, as a more practical healing and cleansing than a juridical concept, too: that is, not “you gotta serve your sentence” but rather “it will be a joy to have you healed and purified, but that process is not going to be more pleasant later than if you had done the work in this life. The time to prepare for heaven, then, is NOW!” IOW, more a guaranteed drug rehab than a prison experience. I think it is taught as a process that is welcomed, one that, if we have any sense, we will welcome to have start right now. There is more emphasis on how service of God is to be embraced, too, rather than how the consequences of failing to do so should be feared. Also, the reality of what Purgatory is going to be like are not taught in such a concrete and literal way: the cleansing fire is no longer taught as a literal physical fire.

It’s a little like physical fitness, really. The emphasis has shifted in much the same way: less “you’re going to pay if you don’t” in favor of “you going to be so glad you did, you will kick yourself for not starting sooner.” Still, nobody I know is downplaying how bad either Purgatory or diabetes and heart disease are, in terms of the consequences of failure to do what God has ordained that we need to do.
 
Chantelle1988 said:
-Do you find purgatory is something that is commonly preached and taught at church in modern times? where did you gain your knowledge, if any, of purgatory?
-Do you think it is something that is still relevant? should it still be included in official church dogma?
Do you think it is the case that many people are now becoming selective about what they believe, preferring to think only of heaven and disregarding the notion of hell and purgatory?
Click to expand...
Speaking for only my parish, purgatory is taught at RCIA and CCE, and also occasionally at Mass. Not near enough at Mass as I’d prefer, but I can understand that constant ‘fire & brimstone’ type sermons would get old after a while. I’ve always known about purgatory, but as a convert it was covered very well in RCIA.

Is it relevant? Absolutely! Its a dogma of our faith, supported by scripture, and makes common sense when compared to the Protestant Heaven/Hell scenario without Purgatory.

By becoming ‘selective’, I can only assume you’re refering to cafeteria-Catholics picking & choosing what they believe. IMHO, this is a product of poor catechism, and the concept of placing one’s own ego above the Church’s teachings. Catholicism, compared to Protestant denominations, is much harder. As an example, my salvation, as a Catholic, is not guarenteed just because I believe. Combine this effort, and catechism, with the human trait to get by with as little effort as possible, the me-generation, and instant gratification, results in picking & choosing your beliefs.

It would be hard to guage whether cafeteria-Catholics are growing or declining. And I’m sure it would differ parish by parish.

IMHO, I pray I reach purgatory! Its a one way street, & I know where it leads 😃
 
Chantelle1988 said:
…
-Do you find purgatory is something that is commonly preached and taught at church in modern times? where did you gain your knowledge, if any, of purgatory?
-Do you think it is something that is still relevant? should it still be included in official church dogma?
Do you think it is the case that many people are now becoming selective about what they believe, preferring to think only of heaven and disregarding the notion of hell and purgatory?

if you could help me answer these questions i would be most grateful 🙂

Chantelle
Click to expand...
Very good questions Chantelle 👍

All three of your questions share a common bond. In one sense they all appear to inquire whether moral relativism is affecting the faith today.

In answer to your first question: I’m not so sure Purgatory is as commonly preached about as before.

In answer to your third question: I echo the sentiments of Light Seeker . We can read the writing on the wall; “cafeteria catholicism” is a phrase that has been coined to describe the selectiveness phenomena which seem to dominate some people’s faith.

Your second question might possibly be misinterpreted as considering Purgatory to be something peripheral whereas it is more properly something essential. .

One author I read expressed it this way : Eschatology is not a branch of metaphysics - it’s the main stem. So Purgatory’s place among the three last things, *Heaven, Hell and Purgatory *, will remain until the end of time.

Purgatory is much more of a hinge-pin to our faith than we often realize. Try to remove it, and everything starts to crumble :sad_yes: .

For example, if we removed Purgatory, we would need to come up with an entirely new definition of sin. Presently, we define two consequences to sin:


  1. *]The guilt incurred by the act.

    *]The temporal punishment due to sin, (the respective remission or reparation of which is principally linked to indulgences and Purgatory).

    …Once we begin to question sin, we eventually question Christ and what He came to save us from (because “salvation” is deliverance from sin and its consequences).

    Whether we think it it still relevant and/or should be included in official Church dogma is secondary. The fact is, it exists. And (as I heard one pope put it), “One can’t vote on the truth.” One of the unfortunate results of personally questioning whether Purgatory is “relevant”, is that we don’t pray for the holy souls any more, or that our prayer is limited.

    We say “Lex orandi, lex credendi”, roughly "The Church prays as She believes." So we should expect to find prayers for the souls in Purgatory in the Roman Missal (and we do). In fact , even though the word Purgatory itself is not used, we pray for the holy souls in Purgatory at every Mass. Each Eucharistic Prayer contains these prayers. Here are examples from Eucharistic Prayers II and III :

    From Eucharistic Prayer II

    Remember our brothers and sisters who have gone to their rest in the hope of rising again; bring them and all the departed into the light of your presence. Have mercy on us all; make us worthy to share eternal life with Mary, the virgin mother of God,…

    From Eucharistic Prayer III

    … Welcome into your kingdom our departed brothers and sisters and all who have left this world in your friendship…

    …Although these are commonly referred to as prayers for the dead or commemoration of the dead, they are prayers for the souls in Purgatory; because the “dead” who are already in God’s sweet embrace no longer need our prayers, and (sadly) those who shall never experience God’s sweet embrace don’t want our prayers.

    [It could be mentioned here that prayers for a deceased loved one or dear one already in God’s embrace are never wasted. God is beyond time and additonally the merits of these prayers can always be applied to a soul in need (Purgatory) who will be forever grateful for them].

    Lex orandi, lex credendi…I find this true in my own life in the sense that though I’ve read extensively on Purgatory, I’ve learned far more about it by praying for and offering up little renouncements for the holy souls as grace permits.

    Pope John Paul II was a master of prayer. A brief expression of his thoughts on the three last things during audiences given in 1999 can be viewed here :
    ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM

    It is my sincere hope and prayer for you Chantelle that you earn excellent marks while simultaneously turning a few more heads and opening a few more hearts to the needs of our brothers and sisters in Purgatory.

    God Bless. Thanks for asking these questions. All of the answers our members are posting are helping all of us 🙂
 
passus said:
I believe exactly what the Church teaches about purgatory which, admittedly, is not very much.
  1. Those who die in God’s friendship but require purification of the temporal effects of their sins or who have not completed the punishment their sins have warranted go to Purgatory.
  2. The souls in Purgatory benefit from our prayers, Masses, fasts, and alms.
  3. In Purgatory, there will be cleansing by fire.
In light of the fact that Purgatory is official Church dogma, I of course accept it as I would any other of the Church’s teachings.
Click to expand...
I believe this as well 🙂
 
Good book (I haven’t personally read it but it has been recommended)

Charity for the Suffering Souls by Nageliesen
 
I realize that your work will require factual background. Another poster (sorry, I missed their name) mentioned F. X. Schouppe’s book on Purgatory, which I’m pretty sure is the same book I would have recommended, entitled “Purgatory”. Saints have spoken about it. Our Lady has spoken about it, I believe. As a Theology student, I’m sure you are aware of Gregorian Masses…begun by reason of Pope Gregory (number???).

But while your work requires proof by reason of man-made factual documentation, I will share a personal opinion for you - if the dissertation allows for comparison analogies:

Before entering the operating room (and despite the fact that his hands are clean), a surgeon is required to “scrub up”. It is what appears to be an almost tedious process of scrubbing and washing every section of nails, hands, arms up to the elbows without coming in contact with anything to avoid contamination. Then, a nurse will place gloves over those sterilized hands. Consider Purgatory as that surgical anteroom - where those imperfections must be totally obliterated - souls sterilized from the stains of any remaining forgiven sins - before entering the Greatest, most Perfect Room of all - the Mansion Jesus has prepared for us, God willing…Heaven.
 
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