This could unite the two major religions :)

[Kaninchen]

I think I understood her argument. I’ve seen it plenty of times before. Where I am specifically criticizing her post is with the disrespectful and ignorant mischaracterization of people who considered themselves Jews who believe God could (and did) humble Himself to take on our flesh—as Jesus—and who believe that belief need not be incompatible with being Jewish.

Perhaps you should have spent more time considering what I wrote rather than reacting to what you think I wrote - I was being quite precise in the example I chose (‘Messianic Judaism’ and its congregations).

It’s one thing for Christians to think themselves Jewish, quite another to demand that we go along with it.

 

[Young_Ludovicus]

Perhaps you should have spent more time considering what I wrote rather than reacting to what you think I wrote - I was being quite precise in the example I chose (‘Messianic Judaism’ and its congregations).

It’s one thing for Christians to think themselves Jewish, quite another to demand that we go along with it.

It’s kind of the same like with the Mormons. They themselves say they are Christian.
Majorty would see them as non-christian. So if you go by a catholic outlook they aren’t christian. But if you go by an outsiders outlook with no stakes in it, you would readily concur that they have the right to see themselves as christian.

It’s the same like this with the Rabbinic Jews. They themselves might see non-Rabbinic Jews not as Jews, but as an outsider with no stakes in it, the Subbotnik, Kaifeng Jew, Karaite Jews etc. seem also Jewish.

 

[meltzerboy]

It’s kind of the same like with the Mormons. They themselves say they are Christian.
Majorty would see them as non-christian. So if you go by a catholic outlook they aren’t christian. But if you go by an outsiders outlook with no stakes in it, you would readily concur that they have the right to see themselves as christian.

It’s the same like this with the Rabbinic Jews. They themselves might see non-Rabbinic Jews not as Jews, but as an outsider with no stakes in it, the Subbotnik, Kaifeng Jew, Karaite Jews etc. seem also Jewish.

If you are using the term “Rabbinic Jews” to be all-inclusive of Jews who follow the Pharasaic tradition, and not only Orthodox Jews, then I am not so sure you can say that all Rabbinic Jews or their rabbis reject the Subbotniks or Kaifeng Jews as legitimately Jewish, and certainly not the Karaite Jews. As Kaninchen points out, it is the Messianic Jews who pose a problem with regard to defining who is a Jew. And even that group is diverse: some identify themselves as Christian, others as Jewish.

 

[Young_Ludovicus]

If you are using the term “Rabbinic Jews” to be all-inclusive of Jews who follow the Pharasaic tradition, and not only Orthodox Jews, then I am not so sure you can say that all Rabbinic Jews or their rabbis reject the Subbotniks or Kaifeng Jews as legitimately Jewish, and certainly not the Karaite Jews. As Kaninchen points out, it is the Messianic Jews who pose a problem with regard to defining who is a Jew. And even that group is diverse: some identify themselves as Christian, others as Jewish.

I said ‘might’.

But mainstream Rabbinic Jews can decide who is Jewish ofcourse. And say that Messianic Jews aren’t Jewish.
Just like the Catholics could decide who is a christian. And say that Mormons aren’t christian.

But that only makes them non-Jewish and non-christian based on the Rabbinic and Catholic viewpoint.

 

[Kaninchen]

If you are using the term “Rabbinic Jews” to be all-inclusive of Jews who follow the Pharasaic tradition, and not only Orthodox Jews, then I am not so sure you can say that all Rabbinic Jews or their rabbis reject the Subbotniks or Kaifeng Jews as legitimately Jewish, and certainly not the Karaite Jews. As Kaninchen points out, it is the Messianic Jews who pose a problem with regard to defining who is a Jew. And even that group is diverse: some identify themselves as Christian, others as Jewish.

It may be that you’re talking to somebody who will let robbers into his home once they’ve told him that they’re part of his family.

 

[DelsonJacobs]

And this on-going debate on who or who isn’t entitled to call themselves a “Jew” is likely why the Catholics that I know of who claim an ancestral connection to the people of Israel call themselves things like “Hebrew Catholic,” “Catholic of Jewish heritage/ancestry,” and in Israel they are known as “Hebrew-speaking Catholics.”

Unlike these other groups, Catholics of Jewish heritage do not demand for themselves the name “Jew” like some of these Jews for Jesus or Messianic Jewish groups do. Catholic Bishops around the world have set guidelines in their territories where Hebrew Catholics may live stating that if they so choose to observe certain Jewish customs of a liturgical nature that they are in no way to Christianize these. This is not necessarily so among these other groups. And as mentioned from my friend who is one of these Hebrew Catholics, he himself considers the “who is Jewish” question not only one that can be answered by those who are Jewish but appropriate for Jews as part of keeping his ethnicity and culture alive. But like other Jews, he isn’t always keen when we who are Gentiles start telling Jews as a whole how they should or should not define things.

It should be noted that with the recent Law of Return for those descended from Crypto-/Sephardic Jews by Spain and Portugal (due to their being persecuted, most forced to convert, and all expelled from these lands in 1492 as a result of the Spanish Inquisition), for the first time in history the Jewish communities of these countries are officially recognizing as being of Jewish stock those who may currently be practicing Catholics (or of some other creed besides being a practicing member of Judaism). While I understand that Judaism treats those who are descendants of the victims of the Spanish Inquisition differently from those who freely adopt Christianity, it does widen the field a bit. In the end it is still the official Jewish communities recognizing and declaring who is and who is not “Jewish.”

 

[AbideWithMe]

Perhaps you should have spent more time considering what I wrote rather than reacting to what you think I wrote - I was being quite precise in the example I chose (‘Messianic Judaism’ and its congregations).

It’s one thing for Christians to think themselves Jewish, quite another to demand that we go along with it.

Kaninchen–
I did spend time considering what you wrote before I said anything, and I do think I understood you correctly as referencing Messianic Jews, which you’ve confirmed now yourself.

My criticism was of your condescending, uninformed and glib characterization of them as just having a “bit of Judaica” around. I’ve spent a good amount of time observing the Messianic Jewish movement over the past 20 years, both by reading and in person since the main annual conference of one of the large Messianic Jewish associations meets near where I live. I can say with assurance that your characterization is way off the mark. It’s fine for you, as a Jewish woman, to have no real understanding of Messianic Jews. It takes time and effort to hear where they’re coming from as a fairly diverse movement, but for a start, there’s both the MJAA and the UMJC in North America, and there are distinct differences between them. Again, that’s fine if you’re not interested in understanding them. But when you say something out loud that shows your lack of understanding, then you invite criticism from people more familiar with both groups. Fair enough?

I agree with you that Messianic Jews can’t demand to be recognized as Jews, and in 20 years I never have seen them do that. They ask—persistently and peskily—of mainstream Judaism to be recognized as the Jews which they still consider themselves to be, but asking is not demanding. Among themselves, they consider they have a higher Authority–Jesus—recognizing them as still Jewish, though mainstream Judaism never may do so. The main sticking point is that they believe God could humble Himself to become human in Jesus, and so they do not believe in any manner they’re worshipping a foreign god.

 

[Kaninchen]

Again, that’s fine if you’re not interested in understanding them. But when you say something out loud that shows your lack of understanding, then you invite criticism from people more familiar with both groups. Fair enough?

No, it’s that we totally disagree about the subject and how the groups and their nature should be interpreted. You think I don’t understand, I think you don’t understand.

 

[AbideWithMe]

And this on-going debate on who or who isn’t entitled to call themselves a “Jew” is likely why the Catholics that I know of who claim an ancestral connection to the people of Israel call themselves things like “Hebrew Catholic,” “Catholic of Jewish heritage/ancestry,” and in Israel they are known as “Hebrew-speaking Catholics.”

Unlike these other groups, Catholics of Jewish heritage do not demand for themselves the name “Jew” like some of these Jews for Jesus or Messianic Jewish groups do. Catholic Bishops around the world have set guidelines in their territories where Hebrew Catholics may live stating that if they so choose to observe certain Jewish customs of a liturgical nature that they are in no way to Christianize these. This is not necessarily so among these other groups. And as mentioned from my friend who is one of these Hebrew Catholics, he himself considers the “who is Jewish” question not only one that can be answered by those who are Jewish but appropriate for Jews as part of keeping his ethnicity and culture alive. But like other Jews, he isn’t always keen when we who are Gentiles start telling Jews as a whole how they should or should not define things.

It should be noted that with the recent Law of Return for those descended from Crypto-/Sephardic Jews by Spain and Portugal (due to their being persecuted, most forced to convert, and all expelled from these lands in 1492 as a result of the Spanish Inquisition), for the first time in history the Jewish communities of these countries are officially recognizing as being of Jewish stock those who may currently be practicing Catholics (or of some other creed besides being a practicing member of Judaism). While I understand that Judaism treats those who are descendants of the victims of the Spanish Inquisition differently from those who freely adopt Christianity, it does widen the field a bit. In the end it is still the official Jewish communities recognizing and declaring who is and who is not “Jewish.”

Delson, as I said to Kaninchen, I have never seen Messianic Jewish groups demand to be considered still Jews, though they ask. If you have evidence of them making that a demand, I’d be interested in seeing it.

I think, though, you’re ultimately sawing off the branch you’re sitting on here.

You are a Christian, so you believe Jesus has the highest authority over any human being, right?

And you believe that in the book of Jeremiah, to name one place, God says that the Jews will never cease being a people before Him, correct?

By your model, however, since Judaism does not recognize converts to Christianity as Jews, any Jewish person who follows Jesus should cease considering themselves to be Jewish, and simply assimilate into the rest of Christianity, and thus be lost to the Jewish community entirely. That’s the inevitable end result of what you’re saying. It’s utterly pointless then for anyone to call themselves Hebrew Catholics; they wouldn’t bother doing that, and retaining any Jewish practice now that the CC allows them to do so, if they believed–as mainstream Judaism says–that they had forfeited their Jewishness by following Jesus.

 

[AbideWithMe]

No, it’s that we totally disagree about the subject and how the groups and their nature should be interpreted. You think I don’t understand, I think you don’t understand.

Okay, I don’t think we’re going to convince each other, so peace.

 

[Tomdstone]

… I have never seen Messianic Jewish groups demand to be considered still Jews, though they ask. If you have evidence of them making that a demand, I’d be interested in seeing it.

They call themselves Messianic Jews.

 

[Duane1966]

Ok, is the person in the following instance a “christian” or not.

From Matthew 18.

A Brother Who Sins.*

15*“If your brothersins [against you], go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother.
16If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’
17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church.**If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.

The common reading of this is that Jesus is saying if they don’t listen, kick them out. If after being kicked out said person says they are still christian, are they just because they say they are?

 

[AbideWithMe]

They call themselves Messianic Jews.

Of course they do. They 1) believe Jesus is a higher authority than any human Jewish religious authority; 2)They believe Jesus is God; 3) They believe God said the Jews would always exist as a people before Him, in an eternal covenant with Him; 3) Unlike much of Christian history, they don’t spiritualize “Israel” in the Bible to be now the Church, but rather that Israel is the Jewish people, still. So…of course they believe they are called to remain Jews, along with the rest of the Jewish community, though they follow Jesus as God.

What they ask, but which in 20 years of observation I have never seen them demand, is that the larger Jewish community accept them as both still Jews while they follow Jesus as Christians. In calling themselves still Jews, they are following what they believe God calls them, without the human recognition.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Ok, is the person in the following instance a “christian” or not.

The common reading of this is that Jesus is saying if they don’t listen, kick them out. If after being kicked out said person says they are still christian, are they just because they say they are?

When Paul was kicked out, repeatedly, of the synagogues by the religious authorities of the synagogues, but still called himself a Jew, was he then sinning? Or was he following what he believed to be a higher religious authority?

 

[Tomdstone]

Of course they do. They 1) believe Jesus is a higher authority than any human Jewish religious authority; 2)They believe Jesus is God; 3) They believe God said the Jews would always exist as a people before Him, in an eternal covenant with Him; 3) Unlike much of Christian history, they don’t spiritualize “Israel” in the Bible to be now the Church, but rather that Israel is the Jewish people, still. So…of course they believe they are called to remain Jews, along with the rest of the Jewish community, in following Jesus as God.

What they ask, but which in 20 years of observation I have never seen them demand, is that the larger Jewish community accept them as both still Jews while they follow Jesus as Christians. In calling themselves still Jews, they are following what they believe God calls them, without the human recognition.

By calling themselves Jews, they are implicitly saying that they consider themselves part of the Jewish community, which is what the rabbis reject.

 

[AbideWithMe]

By calling themselves Jews, they are implicitly saying that they consider themselves part of the Jewish community, which is what the rabbis reject.

Right. And as I’ve been saying, they believe they have a higher authority than any rabbinical body, so, though they would like the mainstream acceptance, and they ask for that acceptance, they’re going to go with that higher authority. They couldn’t be following Jesus at all if they didn’t accept His authority as higher than any other.

 

[meltzerboy]

Of course they do. They 1) believe Jesus is a higher authority than any human Jewish religious authority; 2)They believe Jesus is God; 3) They believe God said the Jews would always exist as a people before Him, in an eternal covenant with Him; 3) Unlike much of Christian history, they don’t spiritualize “Israel” in the Bible to be now the Church, but rather that Israel is the Jewish people, still. So…of course they believe they are called to remain Jews, along with the rest of the Jewish community, though they follow Jesus as God.

What they ask, but which in 20 years of observation I have never seen them demand, is that the larger Jewish community accept them as both still Jews while they follow Jesus as Christians. In calling themselves still Jews, they are following what they believe God calls them, without the human recognition.

There was also a minority group at the time of Jesus, before the establishment of the Church, that called themselves Jewish Christians, who are now extinct. Perhaps Messianic Jews are a variation of that ancient group. However, I thought there are differences in belief among Messianic Jews themselves. According to my understanding, some of them identify as Jews who follow Christ, while others identify as Christians (mainly Protestants) who practice certain Jewish rituals. The latter variety, I think, is particularly what both Judaism and Catholicism reject: Judaism because they are merely dabbling in Jewish rituals while not regarding themselves as Jewish, and Catholicism because they are behaving as Judaizing Christians who do not adhere to the teachings of the Church, as opposed to Hebrew Catholics. Do you have any information on this?

 

[DelsonJacobs]

Delson, as I said to Kaninchen, I have never seen Messianic Jewish groups demand to be considered still Jews, though they ask. If you have evidence of them making that a demand, I’d be interested in seeing it.

I think, though, you’re ultimately sawing off the branch you’re sitting on here.

You are a Christian, so you believe Jesus has the highest authority over any human being, right?

And you believe that in the book of Jeremiah, to name one place, God says that the Jews will never cease being a people before Him, correct?

By your model, however, since Judaism does not recognize converts to Christianity as Jews, any Jewish person who follows Jesus should cease considering themselves to be Jewish, and simply assimilate into the rest of Christianity, and thus be lost to the Jewish community entirely. That’s the inevitable end result of what you’re saying. It’s utterly pointless then for anyone to call themselves Hebrew Catholics; they wouldn’t bother doing that, and retaining any Jewish practice now that the CC allows them to do so, if they believed–as mainstream Judaism says–that they had forfeited their Jewishness by following Jesus.

Even as a Christian, I do not believe I have the authority to claim who is or who is not a Christian.

As for Messianic Jews demanding to be recognized as Jews, yes, there is a lot of evidence. They have constantly attempted to take advantage of Israel’s Law of Return and lost all attempts to be recognized by Jews until 2008. While a minor victory was won in their case they were pushing at the time, their battle did not end then. At present some Messianic Jews can be recognized as Jews but are still not entitled to immigrate. The battle is ongoing and you can Google all the various and countless news articles for yourself.

As a Roman Catholic I find it appalling to demand that any people, ethnic group, race, etc., be forced to give up its cultural identity and ethnic customs and practices as a requisite to joining the Church. Catholics do not practice such things today. No people, Jewish, Irish, Mexican, black, white, Asian, Indian, etc., should be forced to assimilate to another culture upon becoming Christian. Which one should they assimilate to? Should Jews be forced to accept Western American culture practiced by middle class Protestant families? Except for the Jews, aren’t all cultures originally from pagan cultures of the past? Of all people why do the Jews have to give up their culture? Mexicans who enter the Church don’t. Irish people don’t. But Jews do? You might believe that, but Catholics don’t.

The concept of Messiah is a Jewish one. The Old Testament is a product of the Jewish religion. Except for Luke, the entire New Testament was composed by Jews. Have you never read Acts 21.15-26? Are you unaware that after Paul wrote most of his epistles to the Gemtiles that he still claimed to be a Jew, worshipped at the Temple, and did not consider any of his teachings to be applicable to Jewish Christians who wished to remain Torah-observant? Scripture in Acts 21 show the Jewish Christians of the original Church were zealous for the Law and Jewish customs.

And as for your final point, yes Judaism is beginning to recognize some Christians as Jews. As mentioned before, I have a friend who is Catholic of Sephardic Jewish ancestry. The Law of Return to Spain is recognizing descendants of Jews persecuted during the Spanish Inquisition and granting them citizenship, with the Federation of Jewish Communities in Spain recognizing these people as Jewish. My friend, who is Catholic, is one of these people. And no, he does not have to leave Catholicism or practice Judaism to be declared a Sephardic Jew by the Federation in this case.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Even as a Christian, I do not believe I have the authority to claim who is or who is not a Christian.

As for Messianic Jews demanding to be recognized as Jews, yes, there is a lot of evidence. They have constantly attempted to take advantage of Israel’s Law of Return and lost all attempts to be recognized by Jews until 2008. While a minor victory was won in their case they were pushing at the time, their battle did not end then. At present some Messianic Jews can be recognized as Jews but are still not entitled to immigrate. The battle is ongoing and you can Google all the various and countless news articles for yourself.

As a Roman Catholic I find it appalling to demand that any people, ethnic group, race, etc., be forced to give up its cultural identity and ethnic customs and practices as a requisite to joining the Church. Catholics do not practice such things today. No people, Jewish, Irish, Mexican, black, white, Asian, Indian, etc., should be forced to assimilate to another culture upon becoming Christian. Which one should they assimilate to? Should Jews be forced to accept Western American culture practiced by middle class Protestant families? Except for the Jews, aren’t all cultures originally from pagan cultures of the past? Of all people why do the Jews have to give up their culture? Mexicans who enter the Church don’t. Irish people don’t. But Jews do? You might believe that, but Catholics don’t.

The concept of Messiah is a Jewish one. The Old Testament is a product of the Jewish religion. Except for Luke, the entire New Testament was composed by Jews. Have you never read Acts 21.15-26? Are you unaware that after Paul wrote most of his epistles to the Gemtiles that he still claimed to be a Jew, worshipped at the Temple, and did not consider any of his teachings to be applicable to Jewish Christians who wished to remain Torah-observant? Scripture in Acts 21 show the Jewish Christians of the original Church were zealous for the Law and Jewish customs.

And as for your final point, yes Judaism is beginning to recognize some Christians as Jews. As mentioned before, I have a friend who is Catholic of Sephardic Jewish ancestry. The Law of Return to Spain is recognizing descendants of Jews persecuted during the Spanish Inquisition and granting them citizenship, with the Federation of Jewish Communities in Spain recognizing these people as Jewish. My friend, who is Catholic, is one of these people. And no, he does not have to leave Catholicism or practice Judaism to be declared a Sephardic Jew by the Federation in this case.

Your last point is interesting, Delson, and I’ll look into that. I read an article about Archbishop Justin Welby, the fairly new head of the Anglican Church in the UK, who learned a couple of years ago that his father was Jewish. The article was in The Times of Israel, which is edited by a former editor of The Jerusalem Post. The Jewish writer ended the article by saying that Archbishop Welby, as an Anglican, would be able to live in Israel under the Law of Return if he ever chose to do so. That puzzled me. Possibly the change in the Law you’re speaking of has something to do with it, if the writer was correct. Welby, though, is of Ashkenazi descent, I think, since his family’s name was originally Weiler. At any rate, he’s definitely a first generation convert to Christianity, so .

As for the rest of your post, Delson, Delson, where’s the emoticon for when I don’t want to bang my head against a wall but I do want to hit my forehead with my palm…you completely misunderstood what I said all through your two middle paragraphs. I wrote briefly before that until fairly recently the CC did indeed require Jewish converts to give up all and any Jewish practice. If it appalls you now as a Catholic, how was this okay for most of Catholic history? I don’t mean to be difficult, but I don’t understand how you can be okay with Aquinas, the Twelfth Ecumenical Council, and the Council of Florence all requiring all cessation of Jewish practice by converts. Aquinas in particular gives theological seasons for the requirement, so it can’t be seen as merely a discipline for political reasons.

In between hitting myself, let me thank you for noting that in Acts 21 the the Apostles in Jerusalem said there “was no truth in the rumors” that Paul was teaching Jews to cease observing the Law. I asked about this several years ago on CAF, and just got the sound of crickets.

I’ll try to sort out the rest of our misunderstanding later.

 

[Tomdstone]

I wrote briefly before that until fairly recently the CC did indeed require Jewish converts to give up all and any Jewish practice. If it appalls you now as a Catholic, how was this okay for most of Catholic history? I don’t mean to be difficult, but I don’t understand how you can be okay with Aquinas, the Twelfth Ecumenical Council, and the Council of Florence all requiring all cessation of Jewish practice by converts. Aquinas in particular gives theological seasons for the requirement, so it can’t be seen as merely a discipline for political reasons.

I disagree and think that this is a prudential matter of discipline and not required theologically. I don’t think it is any kind of a sin for Catholic parents to circumcise their male infants.