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jmcrae
Guest
It is because we haven’t been drawing any lines, that we have these problems, to begin with. Repentance is not the same thing as getting to go back to business as usual, or getting to do what normal people get to do.
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Whitacre_Girl
Guest
Okay, I went through the article again, and it says he offended TWO times, then shows up at a church shortly after being released. There is no way his time could have passed for him to be allowed to visit that church without supervision, and there is no indication whatsoever that the term “sex offender” applies to the convict their WHOLE life.
This man was arrested, and should have been. There is no way of knowing for sure that he was there for legit reasons. He should have followed the law, got a chaperone, and gone through the legal process to attend religious services.
This man was arrested, and should have been. There is no way of knowing for sure that he was there for legit reasons. He should have followed the law, got a chaperone, and gone through the legal process to attend religious services.
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Corki
Guest
Monitoring is the key.
This kind of case bothers me a lot. Taken to its (not so) extreme, a sex offender could be denied admission into a hospital because there is a pediatric unit there, or kicked off a bus when a bunch of kids get on.
This is a big problem with how our society treats criminals, not just sex offenders. They are alienated from society to the point where they can only function outside of regular society - and that usually means criminal or at least clandestine activity. The result is that the element of society you are trying to protect is put into more danger because the ex-cons are now under the radar.
Unless the state wants to set up towns for ex-cons to live in apart from the rest of us, there has to be a better way.
This kind of case bothers me a lot. Taken to its (not so) extreme, a sex offender could be denied admission into a hospital because there is a pediatric unit there, or kicked off a bus when a bunch of kids get on.
This is a big problem with how our society treats criminals, not just sex offenders. They are alienated from society to the point where they can only function outside of regular society - and that usually means criminal or at least clandestine activity. The result is that the element of society you are trying to protect is put into more danger because the ex-cons are now under the radar.
Unless the state wants to set up towns for ex-cons to live in apart from the rest of us, there has to be a better way.
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Filius_Prodigus
Guest
Nothing against repentance and forgiveness. Just keep them away from the occasion of sin. It is both the offender’s and the authority’s responsibility to do so. Not doing so is a sin for both, each in its own way.
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Whitacre_Girl
Guest
…sorry I’m confused. This looks like a duplicate thread…
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=387677
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=387677
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NCSue
Guest
Yes he offended two times, but served 6 years in prison for these offenses. Also the law doesn’t provide for attendance with a chaperone. He simply cannot attend a church that has youth programs… or at least that’s how I understood the article.
I still say this is an issue with no easy answers.
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Whitacre_Girl
Guest
Right, he served his prison time, but with the high rate of repeat offenses, they are required to be under high scrutiny after their release, otherwse they’d be imprisoned for their prison time, and their watch time.
Again, I can’t speak for that state, but it is sounding more that the church isn’t allowing him back. Looking at the article, he’s allowed to attend a different church, just not this one. In the case of my friend, he was not allowed to return to the church he attended before prison because they turned their noses up at that (I also no longer attend that church, and left the denomination altogether) but there were other churches that allowed him in. My state has laws that allow sex offenders to attend the church of their choice if they are supervised, and if the church approves. If the church does not approve, and he shows up anyway, he can be arrested. Again, this was the case for my friend.
I personally find the laws governing sex offenders fair and just. They allow for them to reenter society in a way that helps them recover, rather than just locking them up exceptionally long periods, or for the rest of their lives. As I said before, if they didn’t do this release program for them, they would be spending their sentence time in prison, as well as the probationary period.
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NCSue
Guest
I’m sorry, but I don’t follow what you’re saying. “Otherwise they’d be imprisoned for their prison time, and their watch time”, and “if they didn’t do this release program for them, they would be spending their sentence time in prison, as well as the probationary period”.
He *served *his sentence - 6 years - and is, I assume, on probation. What “release program” are you referring to? If you are referring to the law preventing him from attending church if children are there, then one of us has the wrong impression about the law. I read nothing that indicated that there’s an “expiration date” for this restriction.
Again, there are no easy answers here.
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Nominefili
Guest
Uhm the main problem I have with this story is the part where he found “a” church that was welcoming to him, which happened to violate what I assume are the conditions of his parole.
There are plenty of churches he can attend. I assume from your post that he is Catholic, and as far as I know there is nothing preventing him from attending any church he wants. If he is truly penitent and has been examined and absolved by a priest, he could go to any church he wants to in the area.
It would seem to me that he might have other motives for choosing that particular congregation.
There are plenty of churches he can attend. I assume from your post that he is Catholic, and as far as I know there is nothing preventing him from attending any church he wants. If he is truly penitent and has been examined and absolved by a priest, he could go to any church he wants to in the area.
It would seem to me that he might have other motives for choosing that particular congregation.
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NCSue
Guest
The man wasn’t arrested for violating the terms of his parole. He was arrested for attending a church that has activities for children. This violated a recently-passed state law.
How many churches do you know that have NO activities for children?
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Corki
Guest
According to the story, it was a Baptist church. Unlike Catholic parishes, many Baptist churches are independant and going to one is not the same as going to another. Not to mention that they all would have children’s activities.
If he had been Catholic, it might have been easier for him as he could go to a Mass without a nursery where all the kids are with thier parents during Mass. Or he could have gone to Mass at a monestary or abbey.
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
This is one feature of the US that makes any decent human being want to vomit - can’t people see they are being taken for fools, when a criminal (of a particularly vile kind, at that) plays on his enemies’ weaknesses, by dragging God into the equation ? It’s enough to make anyone despair: it is so obvious, people must be blind not to see that he’s a lying piece of scum who is playing them for fools, purely so that he can get more victims. People like that are **extremely manipulative - & how better to manipulate people, than by telling them a load of lying - and culturally acceptable - rubbish about “finding Geezus” ?
What else would such a person say, for crying out loud: “I’m a paedophile, and I have every intention of grooming & corrupting any child I can get my hands on” ? There should be a law against stupidity, especially religious stupidity: it is extremely dangerous. There is a tragedy, several tragedies, in the offing, if that paedophile is let out.
The sooner he is imprisoned and the key thrown away, the better. Paedophiles are rattlesnakes, and who but a fool would try to “rehabilitate” a rattler ? Aren’t the paedophilia scandals in the CC warning enough that paedophiles are incorrigible, endlessly deceitful, manipulative, & extremely dangerous ? :banghead:Most unfair, indeed. In a** just** country, such a man would have been executed. Despite all that rubbish in the CCC about how nasty it is to inflict the death penalty; rubbish which merely plays into the hands of scum such as this paedophile. (The Pope has a bodyguard, just like the average parent, and no children to worry about, just like the average parent; which is why he so well-fitted to tell the rest of us, who have to live in the real world, the world of liars, scumbags, rapists, murderers, paedophiles, and similar filth, what to do. 
) Not to punish criminals is very wicked, and a terrible miscarriage of justice. 
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Nathan_Wagar
Guest
I think this is a non-issue. If the priest or Eucharistic minister can take the Sacrament to the sick at their homes, then they can do the same for this man, given his sepcial situation. I would have looked into that ahead of time, especially if I knew I wasn’t allowed around kids, and that the Church had a nursery.
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
It makes me incandescent with fury - to treat a criminal so well is an abomination, a disgrace, and full of horrifying possibilities for children in that church.
Excellent ideas - except that the proper place for such a person is prison, where he can get all the sexual abuse and predation he could ever want. Society’s happy, he’s happy, problem solved. If he’s not happy - who compelled him to be a sexual predator ? No-one. He has only himself to blame.
There is a very big problem - society is soft on them. It keeps inventring excuses for them, rather than being just, and putting them to death, as for the safety of society it should. (Please, no namby-pamby nonsense about unjust executions: anyone capable of making that objection shows only that he or she does not take Catholic doctrine about sin, or about vicarious suffering, seriously. A real Catholic will have no objections to the DP; least of all if he or she is executed: it’s an excellent way of doing penance.)
Rejoice, for there is: it’s a called the death penalty, and has had a 100% success rate wherever & whenever & however inflicted, for thousands of years; the dead never re-offend: that is guaranteed, absolutely.
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Whitacre_Girl
Guest
You didn’t read anything about the expiration period because this article is extremely biased. Sex offenders are only required to register and be restricted from activities with minors present for a short time. You can look this up. A sex offender serves a prison sentence, then is required to serve a probationary period where they are required to follow restrictions, and made to attend therapy. THis is the rehabilitation stage.
If it were not for this rehabilitation stage, it would be a longer prison sentence. Let me give you an example:
person A commits a sex offense. He is sentenced to 5 years in prison.
He serves 5 years on prison and is placed on mandatory restriction upon release for 4 years.
He goes his 4 years with no incident. He is then no longer required to register as a sex offender and can go to any church he wants, or to any school with any age of child around.
If there was no restiction period of 4 years, that person would spend 10 years in prison., and be released with no rehabilitation.
Those 4 years where he is required to register and is under scrutiny allows for the rehabilitation of sex offenders. It allows them to go out into the world and rebuild their lives, while still being watched by the government to make sure they don’t reoffend.
Let me say again, with the exception of level 3 sex offenders in select states, a sex offender does NOT have to register and be on restriction his whole life. This is a commonly misunderstood part of the law.
In the case of this man, and judging by his actions, I’d say his chances of being truly repentant and just really wanting to go to church are less than him wanting to be in a position with access to children again. People who are truly repentant and seeking God respect and obey the restrictions. This is the case with the man I know who did mess up, and picked himself up again. Another good way to look at all of this, is to get the perspective of a mother or father who’s child has been sexually molested.
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Whitacre_Girl
Guest
Here’s the law accounding to NC where the church is located:
As for registering for life as is the case for violent offenders, considering that they could be serving a life sentence I’d think it doesn’t matter to them that they have to register. Besides, they can appeal to no longer have to register if they can show that they are no longer a threat.
Again, the fact that he showed NO effort to appeal, challenge, or otherwise discuss his restrictions and just showed up to church anyway shows a serious lack of judgement or questionable motive. Again, a good way to gain perspective on all of this is to talk to a rape victim, or the parents of a molested child.
So the article lacks vital information for our discussion. I doubt his case was aggravated assault, or he was classified as a predator (these are usually level III offenses, and from what I read int he article he’s probably a level II at best).
As for registering for life as is the case for violent offenders, considering that they could be serving a life sentence I’d think it doesn’t matter to them that they have to register. Besides, they can appeal to no longer have to register if they can show that they are no longer a threat.
Again, the fact that he showed NO effort to appeal, challenge, or otherwise discuss his restrictions and just showed up to church anyway shows a serious lack of judgement or questionable motive. Again, a good way to gain perspective on all of this is to talk to a rape victim, or the parents of a molested child.
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Prodigal_Son
Guest
Thank you, Whitacre_Girl, for knowing what you’re talking about. If the system is as reasonable as you describe, then the law is handling this issue well.
It’s the concept of “branding a person for life” that frustrates me. When it comes to sex, people often make judgments on the basis of emotion, not reason.
It’s the concept of “branding a person for life” that frustrates me. When it comes to sex, people often make judgments on the basis of emotion, not reason.
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Kay_Cee
Guest
Doesn’t that make Jesus a fool since His sacrifice on the cross is meant to rehabilitate all of us sinners?
By this do you mean he chose to be a sexual predator? But if it’s a matter of choice, can’t he then choose not to be one, especially by crying out to God for help?
I’m a little confused by what you’re saying. Are you saying it’s impossible for a person who’s committed the sin of child molestation to ever come to God? That this sin is totally unforgivable? That Christ wouldn’t leave the 99 and go after this 1 lost sheep?
Is the Holy Spirit so weak he finds it impossible to give a repentant sinner the grace he seeks to fight his sinful inclinations?
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Whitacre_Girl
Guest
Thank you Prodigal
LOLThis is an issue that I have spent a lot of time looking into since my incident. I had a male friend in the church who was a youth leader. I looked up to him a LOT and since we were both church musicians we got to spend a lot of time together “jamming” and just talking about God. I was 16, he was 33. He helped me through a lot in my youth, including a boy my age who had taken very indecentl liberties with me and had me believe t was my own fault. I also knew this girl a year younger than I in the youth group who had very severe sexual issues, as well as rebellion issues. He tried to invest time in her, and wound up getting very close to her. She kept calling him at home, and inviting him over “to talk” when I left for college, he spent a lot of time with her “trying to turn her around” but she was trying to seduce him. He eventually gave in, and was caught. He should have known better, and he knew it. The family of the girl tried to accuse him of violent rape because they wanted to defend their daughter, but the truth got out, and he was sentenced to 1-5 for statutory rape. He was out in a year on good behaviour and then placed on the probation.
He was kicked out of the church because everyone thought he was a dangerous violent criminal and wouldn’t let him come back. THis was because the girl’s family admitted to the law that it wasn’t a violent crime when they were caught lying, but they still told the church all about it. It was actually the girl’s sister who told me about it first, and she said that he cornered her in the church youth room and brutally attacked and raped her. I knew him, and I knew he would NEVER do that. I eventually got the truth from a trusted friend and pastor (the one that actually caught him leaving the girl’s house one night). Because of the completely unchristlike attitude, I left that church. Yes, I was already in college so I wasn’t attending anymore, but I discontinued my association with them and stopped visiting when I visted home. I couldn’t believe what had happened.
Well, during his probation he found a church that would let a registered sex offender attend, he started attending a ministry with his wife, and their marriage was healed and stronger than ever, then after a few short years he was made leader of that ministry, and because of his repentant attitude and seeking God, they are leading many couples o christ, and helping to heal SO many marriages. Last I heard the old church tried to get him back, but he refused. I don’t blame him.
So the problem isn’t the law at all. It’s set up in such a way that certain circumstances can be taken in to account, and allows a lot of freedom anf facilitates the recovery of these men and women who suffer from a disordered desire, or who were in the wrong place at the wrong time and gave in. It also allows for the predatory who do not recover to be properly “taken care of” to protect society. No, the problem here was probably the church. If not the church, then he was not following his probation properly, which raises serious concerns as to his motives. Most of the release program for sexual offenders require you to begin treatment, and they recognise the importance and success that churches have, and they will bend over backwards to get an offender into a secure church environment.
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Caramel
Guest
I can understand both sides of this issue. It is “common knowledge” (whether or not it is true) that pedophiles cannot be rehabilitated. And parents become very angry and defensive when they believe their children are in danger.
I can’t access your addy because of computer problems. I assume he is not Catholic. If he were Catholic he could at least receive Holy Communion at home, away from children.
I get this picture in my mind of church doors being slammed in the face of this man who has a disease that we don’t know how to cure yet. It is a sad picture.
I wonder how I would feel if I knew this man was a pedophile and I had a small child and attended Mass (or a service in another church.) Would I be afraid? There are things that can be done to keep him away from the children. But I went to a Catholic school affiliated with a Church that had a priest who was molesting two boys in my class. Are the children in this man’s church really safe from him? REALLY SAFE? Pedophiles can be very intelligent and I bet he could find himself alone with a child pretty darn fast, whether at church or at a school or in his car, home, etc.
I’m sure his situation is not unique. The laws that require a pedophile to register as a Sex Offender and to stay away from children have been upheld over and over. And I can understand the need for those laws. Did he really find God in prison? Many prisoners say they do and they are lying. But who are we to say he didn’t find God? The fact that he was attending a church is evidence that when he said he found God he was telling the truth.
It must appear that I’m flip-flopping around here like a fish out of water.
I’m going to back up and read the posts as they appear and I hope I (and the rest of us) learn something.Thanks for bringing this up. It is a complicated situation.
caramel
wife of James Andrew (in heaven)
mother of Ryan Christopher
and Elysia Catherine (in heaven)
“On a scale of 1 to 10, when I have sex with a woman it’s a 1, when I have sex with a young boy it’s 100.” - anonymous pedophile
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