This is embarassing for all Christians

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I wonder what would have happened 2000 years ago if when Jesus rolled the stone back He saw Andrew kicking the bejeepers out of Bartholomew…🤷
Reply: I was going to ask,“why would one chose to publize this lunacy” when it occured to me that it’s no more embarassing than “odrinary minister of the Most Holy Eucharist”, or receiving Jesus Himself in our hands.

God bless, PJM m.c.
 
Reply: I was going to ask,“why would one chose to publize this lunacy” when it occured to me that it’s no more embarassing than “odrinary minister of the Most Holy Eucharist”, or receiving Jesus Himself in our hands.

God bless, PJM m.c.
Then you need help. Its been approved by the Church to receive in the hands. Why don’t you be a little more accurate about what you think or do not think is allowed before writing anything and mis-representing what is a licit pastoral action of the Church (recieving in the hands) and an illicit, liturgical abuse (‘ordinary EMHC’). Nice one bud. 👍
 
Then you need help. Its been approved by the Church to receive in the hands. Why don’t you be a little more accurate about what you think or do not think is allowed before writing anything and mis-representing what is a licit pastoral action of the Church (recieving in the hands) and an illicit, liturgical abuse (‘ordinary EMHC’). Nice one bud.

**At the risk of derailing the thread, my understanding is that the traditional means of receiving communion in the Chaldean AND their counterpart the Assyrian Churches IS in the hand.

I’ve seen videos of Assyrians purifying their hands in the smoke of the censer before receiving. Do the Chaldeans do this as well?**
 
This just proves that we need re-union and we need it fast. The Eastern Rites did it, why can’t the rest of Eastern Orthodoxy follow so easily?
This fight only proves that sin and pride are present even among Christians.

The unity of Christ’s Churches in Holy Orthodoxy is a very desirable thing. But this fight does not prove it - Christ’s desire proves it. Much less does anything including this fight prove that Christians should unite under the heel of the Bishop of Rome.
 
Much less does anything including this fight prove that Christians should unite under the heel of the Bishop of Rome.

**Would it not be better to speak in terms of mutual reconciliation and forgiveness?

I think of the prayer said by His Holiness Alexey and Metropolitan Hilarion (or was it Laurus?) which I have posted on this forum. BOTH have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. BOTH need to forgive each other and to ask forgiveness.**
 
I apologize if under heel of is very rude expression. I mean to say using English synonym book:

under authority,or under governance, under tyranny, under regime or under reign of Bishop of Rome.
 
What struck me the most when I went to the Holy Land in 1995 was the concept of ownership of the churches at the major sites.

I’m used to here, in the USA, and especially here in Brooklyn which is known as the “County of Churches” because there are SO MANY churches in Brooklyn - the Catholic Church is two blocks away and the Lutheran Church is down the block and the Presbyterian Church is six blocks up and one avenue over, the Episcopalian Church is around the corner from the Catholic Church, and the Methodists are somewhere nearby. (There are two Catholic Churches within walking distance of my apartment, and two more which are only a little further away.)

In Israel, when you go to one of the major shrines (Church of the Holy Sepulcher, Church of the Nativity, etc.), as our guide explained, “this section belongs to the Catholics, and that section belongs to the Greek Orthodox, that part over there is the Armenian’s, and we just passed the part that belongs to the Copts,” etc.

I found it so strange that different portions within the same structure belong to different Churches. I guess with that kind of mentality, it’s very easy to be offended because someone intruded on “your” space.
So it’s like they are all gangs? that kinda stinks…is there anyway of defending the Roman Catholic faith against these sects? maybe someone should start a thread about that.
 
REALLY makes you stop and think about this quote…

*I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
**Mohandas Gandhi
*
 
I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
Mohandas Gandhi


**On the other hand, can you imagine the following scenarios:
  1. A Canaanite comes up to Joshua during the Exodus, saying, “I really like your god YHVH. I’ve heard about all His wonders. But I don’t have any use for the Israelites. Why don’t you give me a copy of the Torah and a couple of sacrificial animals, and I’ll be on my way?”
  2. “King David, I want you to be my personal lord and king, but I don’t want to have anything to do with your kingdom.”
How do you think these stories would end?

Think about it.**
 
First, to address the OP… I’ve now seen this issue come up several times. It seems that there are two issues at work here.

First, with everything being so jam-packed in the Holy City, people easily run into each others space or time-slots. That is what was brought up previously by posters on this forum.

Second, and I think being a Middle Easterner, I can say that sometimes a little brawl is just a little brawl… and no hard feelings. It might be as Middle Eastern as Apple Pie and Corvettes are American. We fight, sometimes throw punches, and then when it’s over, go out to dinner.

Forgive me for oversimplifying and downplaying something that is somewhat embarrassing. 🙂
**At the risk of derailing the thread, my understanding is that the traditional means of receiving communion in the Chaldean AND their counterpart the Assyrian Churches IS in the hand.

I’ve seen videos of Assyrians purifying their hands in the smoke of the censer before receiving. Do the Chaldeans do this as well?**
Yes. The Assyrian Church still does receiving communion in hand. The way it is received can be compared to what St. Cyril of Jerusalem writes when he says “make your left hand a throne for the right, as for that which is to receive a King” and receiving the body of Christ “say over it, Amen.”

The Chaldean Church today practices intinction which makes receiving in hand not an option. I don’t have a preference for either way, and receive both ways depending on the service I go to. Our priest who came into the Chaldean Church still does the old way, the priest whose parish we joined does it with intinction. It is the VERY SAME Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ.

If we want to discuss this a bit more, maybe we should open a new thread. 🙂
 
REALLY makes you stop and think about this quote…

I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.

Mohandas Gandhi
Please keep in mind the context in that Gandhi had been interested in Christianity during his years in South Africa, but as he made his mind to go to a church service there, he was stopped at the door and rejected by a white man. This was during the time of Apartheid, and I believe that segregation was a huge factor in this.

Gandhi was not right to reject the awesomeness of God and the beauty of Christianity because of someone’s weakness {intolerance}. That is like me looking at my church members, and seeing someone who’s lazy, and saying I like Christ, but not His Church because there’s lazy people in it.
 
Then you need help. Its been approved by the Church to receive in the hands. Why don’t you be a little more accurate about what you think or do not think is allowed before writing anything and mis-representing what is a licit pastoral action of the Church (recieving in the hands) and an illicit, liturgical abuse (‘ordinary EMHC’). Nice one bud. 👍
Reply: My dear friend in Christ.

I neither said or even implied that “it was not licit.” Nor do I understand it to be “invalid.”

What I did say and what I do personally hold as “the trurh” is the practice of “Holy Communion in the hand.” Receiving the very Body, Blood, Sould and Divinity of the God who created us, is at best an impious action that assumes that somehow we are worthy of such actions.

Not only do I believe that we are unworthy of such acts, but so did the Magistrium of Vatican II. To witt:

Vatican II, Instruction On The Worship of The Eucharistic Mystery Chapter 11. This question was brought to the floor to be voted on.
  1. QUESTION: "Do you think attention should be paid to the desire that, over and above the “traditional manner,” the rite of receiving Holy Communion in the hand should be addmitted?
YES: 597
No: 1,215
Yes But with reservations: 315

“Therefore, taking into account the remarks and the advice that the Holy Spirit has placed to rule over churchs,” in view of the gravity and the force of the arguements put forward, THE HOLY FATHER has decided NOT to change the way of administering Holy Communion to the faithful."

A quote from Blessed Mother Theresa of Caculta:

“Wherever I go in the whole world, the thing that makes me the saddest is watching people receive communion in the hand.”
– Blessed Mother Teresa of Calcutta

As reported by Fr. George Rutler in 1989 when he asked her, **“What do you think is the worst problem in the world today?” **

One should also be aware that Pope Benedict will only distribute Holy Commion personally, if one is kneeling, and on the tongue.

In the V II Instruction: Holy Communion Outside Mass article 21 say’s: “In administering Holy Communion. the practice of placing the paeticle on the tongue of the recipitent should be observed, as is based on a long lasting Tradition.”

In anticipation of your question on how or why this can be? In view the now common practice of ordinary ministers of the Eucharist. I share the following from the same document quoted above"

#32. Communion Under Both Kinds (Sacred Bread and Wine.)

"This is why FROM NOW ONWARDS, in accordance with the judgement of the bishops (meaning they are authorized to do as specified (not every Mass, every day to everyone!) and given the PROPER CATECHESIS, Communion from The Challace is permitted in the following cases.

1.Newly baptized Adults
2.Bride and Groom on the day of their wedding
3.New Ordained
4.To the Abbesses in Mass of their blessing
5.To lay missionaries in the Mass when they are being sent on there mission.
6.In the administration of Viaticum
7. To a deacon, sub=deacon in a solem or pontifical Mass
8. (detailed) When there is a concelebration
9.To preist participating in a concelbration Mass
10.To all groups making a retreat
11. Priest celbrating Jubilee Mass
12. To god parents and spouce of a newly baptized adult
13. to parents of newly ordained
END of List authorizing who,when and where.Binding on all Catholics.

Yea but, “the bishops asked for and received an indult.”

reply: yea but: they did it AFTER it had already been introduced as a Vatican II mandate, and was a common practice. Rome was balckmailed into granting it.

Certainly hope that this clarifies your understanding, of what I was sharring.

God Bless, PJM m.c.
 
Years ago at this same site, a ladder was inexplicably placed on a ledge. No one wanted it there, but no one could agree on who had the authority to remove it, so it simply sat there for over one hundred years. A brawl like this seems perfectly in character, sadly.
I’ve read that it is STILL THERE!
 
Reply: My dear friend in Christ.

What I did say and what I do personally hold as “the trurh” is the practice of “Holy Communion in the hand.” Receiving the very Body, Blood, Sould and Divinity of the God who created us, is at best an impious action that assumes that somehow we are worthy of such actions.

The disciplines of the Church enjoy a negative infallibility, that is to say, while a practice may not be prudentially the wisest, it has the virtue that it CANNOT lead the faithful into impiety. The Church cannot act impiously nor can a discipline that She permits, of itself, lead the faithful astray.

Vatican II, Instruction On The Worship of The Eucharistic Mystery Chapter 11. This question was brought to the floor to be voted on.
  1. QUESTION: "Do you think attention should be paid to the desire that, over and above the “traditional manner,” the rite of receiving Holy Communion in the hand should be addmitted?
YES: 597
No: 1,215
Yes But with reservations: 315

“Therefore, taking into account the remarks and the advice that the Holy Spirit has placed to rule over churchs,” in view of the gravity and the force of the arguements put forward, THE HOLY FATHER has decided NOT to change the way of administering Holy Communion to the faithful."

His succesors have decided differently.

A quote from Blessed Mother Theresa of Caculta:

“Wherever I go in the whole world, the thing that makes me the saddest is watching people receive communion in the hand.”
– Blessed Mother Teresa of Calcutta

As reported by Fr. George Rutler in 1989 when he asked her, “What do you think is the worst problem in the world today?”

The Missionaries of Charity deny that Mother Teresa said this.

One should also be aware that Pope Benedict will only distribute Holy Commion personally, if one is kneeling, and on the tongue.

It has never been established that Pope Benedict will ONLY give Holy Communion in this way. It IS something that the Papal Master of Ceremonies has been quoted as saying that we will see more often. In the meantime, the Holy Father in 2007 extended the Indult for Communion in the hand to the nation of Poland.

#32. Communion Under Both Kinds (Sacred Bread and Wine.)

"This is why FROM NOW ONWARDS, in accordance with the judgement of the bishops (meaning they are authorized to do as specified (not every Mass, every day to everyone!) and given the PROPER CATECHESIS, Communion from The Challace is permitted in the following cases.

1.Newly baptized Adults
2.Bride and Groom on the day of their wedding
3.New Ordained
4.To the Abbesses in Mass of their blessing
5.To lay missionaries in the Mass when they are being sent on there mission.
6.In the administration of Viaticum
7. To a deacon, sub=deacon in a solem or pontifical Mass
8. (detailed) When there is a concelebration
9.To preist participating in a concelbration Mass
10.To all groups making a retreat
11. Priest celbrating Jubilee Mass
12. To god parents and spouce of a newly baptized adult
13. to parents of newly ordained
END of List authorizing who,when and where.Binding on all Catholics.

Yea but, “the bishops asked for and received an indult.”

reply: yea but: they did it AFTER it had already been introduced as a Vatican II mandate, and was a common practice. Rome was balckmailed into granting it.

Certainly hope that this clarifies your understanding, of what I was sharring.

God Bless, PJM m.c.
Communion under both Sacred Species is an ancient and apostolic tradition maintained by the Orthodox and our Eastern Catholic brethren and it was practiced by the Latin Church until the 1400s.

In the above, the bold faced remarks are mine.
 
Communion under both Sacred Species is an ancient and apostolic tradition maintained by the Orthodox and our Eastern Catholic brethren and it was practiced by the Latin Church until the 1400s.

In the above, the bold faced remarks are mine.
Reply: OK, and whay do you think the Church changed?

And to our brethern churches use ordinary eucharistic ministers?

And do our brethern receive in their hands?

And how is this truly revelant ( I’m being sincere here) to what the RCC does, asside form point out differences?

God bless, and thanks for sharring!

PJM m.c.
 
Reply: My dear friend in Christ.

I neither said or even implied that “it was not licit.” Nor do I understand it to be “invalid.”

What I did say and what I do personally hold as “the trurh” is the practice of “Holy Communion in the hand.” Receiving the very Body, Blood, Sould and Divinity of the God who created us, is at best an impious action that assumes that somehow we are worthy of such actions.

Not only do I believe that we are unworthy of such acts, but so did the Magistrium of Vatican II. To witt:

Vatican II, Instruction On The Worship of The Eucharistic Mystery Chapter 11. This question was brought to the floor to be voted on.
  1. QUESTION: "Do you think attention should be paid to the desire that, over and above the “traditional manner,” the rite of receiving Holy Communion in the hand should be addmitted?
YES: 597
No: 1,215
Yes But with reservations: 315

“Therefore, taking into account the remarks and the advice that the Holy Spirit has placed to rule over churchs,” in view of the gravity and the force of the arguements put forward, THE HOLY FATHER has decided NOT to change the way of administering Holy Communion to the faithful."

A quote from Blessed Mother Theresa of Caculta:

“Wherever I go in the whole world, the thing that makes me the saddest is watching people receive communion in the hand.”
– Blessed Mother Teresa of Calcutta

As reported by Fr. George Rutler in 1989 when he asked her, **“What do you think is the worst problem in the world today?” **

One should also be aware that Pope Benedict will only distribute Holy Commion personally, if one is kneeling, and on the tongue.

In the V II Instruction: Holy Communion Outside Mass article 21 say’s: “In administering Holy Communion. the practice of placing the paeticle on the tongue of the recipitent should be observed, as is based on a long lasting Tradition.”

In anticipation of your question on how or why this can be? In view the now common practice of ordinary ministers of the Eucharist. I share the following from the same document quoted above"

#32. Communion Under Both Kinds (Sacred Bread and Wine.)

"This is why FROM NOW ONWARDS, in accordance with the judgement of the bishops (meaning they are authorized to do as specified (not every Mass, every day to everyone!) and given the PROPER CATECHESIS, Communion from The Challace is permitted in the following cases.

1.Newly baptized Adults
2.Bride and Groom on the day of their wedding
3.New Ordained
4.To the Abbesses in Mass of their blessing
5.To lay missionaries in the Mass when they are being sent on there mission.
6.In the administration of Viaticum
7. To a deacon, sub=deacon in a solem or pontifical Mass
8. (detailed) When there is a concelebration
9.To preist participating in a concelbration Mass
10.To all groups making a retreat
11. Priest celbrating Jubilee Mass
12. To god parents and spouce of a newly baptized adult
13. to parents of newly ordained
END of List authorizing who,when and where.Binding on all Catholics.

Yea but, “the bishops asked for and received an indult.”

reply: yea but: they did it AFTER it had already been introduced as a Vatican II mandate, and was a common practice. Rome was balckmailed into granting it.

Certainly hope that this clarifies your understanding, of what I was sharring.

God Bless, PJM m.c.
As a personal opinion, I totally understand. The way it was worded, it did sound like you were implying this was the unacceptable from a pastoral perspective. I’m just sick and tired of people bashing the Church you know?
 
This is one more reason we should all be Catholic!
Just as wonderful and nonviolent as the Croatian ustasi in Great War.

Archbishop Stepinak in Croatia who oversaw genocide of 840,000 serbs for not being Catolic.
Alojzije (Aloysius) Viktor Cardinal Stepinac (May 8, 1898February 10, 1960) was a Croatian Catholic Prelate. He was Archbishop of Zagreb from 1937 to 1960. In 1946, in a verdict that polarised public opinion both in Yugoslavia and beyond, a Belgrade court found him guilty of collaborating with the Ustaše and complicity in allowing the forced conversion of Orthodox Serbs to Catholicism. He was sentenced to 16 years in prison, but after five years was released and confined to his home parish of Krašić. He was appointed a Cardinal in 1952 by Pope Pius XII. In 1998 Pope John Paul II declared him a martyr and beatified him, which again polarised public opinion.
Ante’ Pavelic, the bloody dictator of Croatia and the Archbishop of Zagreb Cardinal Stepinac oversaw probably the most cruelest genocide in human history. 840,000 people murdered because they weren’t Roman Catholics.

Jasenovac concentration camp (in Croatian: Logor Jasenovac in Serbian: Логор Јасеновац / Logor Jasenovac) was the largest concentration and extermination camp in Croatia during World War II. It was established by the Ustaša (Ustasha) regime of the Independent State of Croatia in August 1941. It was dismantled in April 1945.

No thank you, we should not all be Catolic!
 
Volodymyr should be careful what he starts - we may have to bring up Agent Drozdov (the current Patriarch of Moscow and known KGB operative). This sort of tit for tat is completely unnecessary and does nothing.

Patriarch Josyp of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church was offered at a minimum the Metropolitinate of Kyiv and possibly more if he would collude with a godless regime as much of the hierarchy in the Moscow Patriarchate had already done, beginning with Patriarch Sergius. There are many still alive in the UGCC who know what it is to be faithful to the Catholic Church and to our Kyivan Tradition to the point of martyrdom.

Many Christians have been baptized and not lived up to their potential in the deifying grace of the Most Holy Trinity. Hitler and Stalin were both baptized in the major historical religions of Christianity.
FDRLB
 
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