This is embarrassing ladies any help?

[LongingSoul]

Can you give me a quotation of principle then to support artificial birth control in this instance? Whilst it would be ok to use ABC if one were single to resolve an issue of irregular cycles or heavy bleeding - treating the same condition in marriage presents a different context. I would appreciate a quotation from a reputable source.

"Consequently, it is a serious error to think that a whole married life of otherwise normal relations can justify sexual intercourse which is deliberately contraceptive and so intrinsically wrong.

Lawful Therapeutic Means

1. On the other hand, the Church does not consider at all illicit the use of those therapeutic means necessary to cure bodily diseases, even if a foreseeable impediment to procreation should result there from—provided such impediment is not directly intended for any motive whatsoever. (19)" - Humanae Vitae

vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html

 

[Xantippe]

Can you give me a quotation of principle then to support artificial birth control in this instance? Whilst it would be ok to use ABC if one were single to resolve an issue of irregular cycles or heavy bleeding - treating the same condition in marriage presents a different context. I would appreciate a quotation from a reputable source.

I don’t have my husband (he’s an ethicist) around to consult with, but hopefully somebody else can find you the relevant cites.

 

[Stillsosola]

Im in mexcio i went to a government clinic the doctor did an ultrasound but nothing was seen my uterus looked normal but due to me having so much blood loss he recommends interventions also in mexico women normally have c sections so he kind of thought me having four kids so large could have somehow damaged me. And he chewed me out for not having elective csections men! Im going to the hospital espanol next month to see a female doctor from spain its going to cost an arm and leg but i hope she has a better idea in the meantime im considering the pills the lowest dose possible. My poor husband is beside himself hes convinced hell find me dead one day from bleeding since i hemmoraged so bad with this last baby he thinks its god way of telling me to stop having kids men can be so foolish. Thankyou for your advice ladies lets hope the spanish doctor can straighten things out! Hopefully if hormonal methods are absolutely necessary it wont be long term since my arms are itchy for another baby!

 

[thewanderer]

"Consequently, it is a serious error to think that a whole married life of otherwise normal relations can justify sexual intercourse which is deliberately contraceptive and so intrinsically wrong.

Lawful Therapeutic Means

1. On the other hand, the Church does not consider at all illicit the use of those therapeutic means necessary to cure bodily diseases, even if a foreseeable impediment to procreation should result there from—provided such impediment is not directly intended for any motive whatsoever. (19)" - Humanae Vitae

vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html

This will help with the sterility/temporary infertility aspect of it. However, I suspect it will not satisfy ancailindeas’ worry about the abortificiant aspect of the pill. I don’t have an authoritative writing on the subject, but I do have some thoughts which will hopefully help clear the matter up.

Since the difference between an abortion and a miscarriage is that an abortion is intended and a miscarriage is not, what this question boils down to for a couple who does not intend or desire the death of their unborn children is whether or not it is permissible to have marital relations while they know they are fertile and at an increased risk for miscarriage. So it seems to me that a couple using the pill for legitimate medical purposes is in the exact same boat with respect to whether relations are permissible as a couple who is known to be at high risk for miscarriage due to other reasons (say a short luteal cycle). If it is immoral for the former couple to have marital relations then it is immoral for the latter and vice versa. Does that make sense?

 

[ancailindeas]

This will help with the sterility/temporary infertility aspect of it. However, I suspect it will not satisfy ancailindeas’ worry about the abortificiant aspect of the pill. I don’t have an authoritative writing on the subject, but I do have some thoughts which will hopefully help clear the matter up.

Since the difference between an abortion and a miscarriage is that an abortion is intended and a miscarriage is not, what this question boils down to for a couple who does not intend or desire the death of their unborn children is whether or not it is permissible to have marital relations while they know they are fertile and at an increased risk for miscarriage. So it seems to me that a couple using the pill for legitimate medical purposes is in the exact same boat with respect to whether relations are permissible as a couple who is known to be at high risk for miscarriage due to other reasons (say a short luteal cycle). If it is immoral for the former couple to have marital relations then it is immoral for the latter and vice versa. Does that make sense?

As far as I am aware a couple could engage in licit sexual relations even if the woman had a short luteal phase. There is a risk of miscarriage but it might not happen. The intention to be open to life is there. The issue with using ABC in marriage for medical reasons is that there is a risk of abortion. Surely that risk would always be run during a woman’s fertile years? I fully understand that it is licit to use ABC for a medical reason per se (but NOT as a contraceptive).

 

[thewanderer]

As far as I am aware a couple could engage in licit sexual relations even if the woman had a short luteal phase. There is a risk of miscarriage but it might not happen. The intention to be open to life is there. The issue with using ABC in marriage for medical reasons is that there is a risk of abortion. Surely that risk would always be run during a woman’s fertile years? I fully understand that it is licit to use ABC for a medical reason per se (but NOT as a contraceptive).

What do you think the difference between an abortion and a miscarriage is? If it is the fact that a person has done something that increased the risk of the child’s death then coffee is an abortificient, and those who miscarry after drinking coffee are guilty of abortion. If it is instead that an abortion must be intended and desired then a person using the pill for medical reasons but who does not want their unborn children to die may have a miscarriage but they will not have an abortion.

 

[ancailindeas]

What do you think the difference between an abortion and a miscarriage is? If it is the fact that a person has done something that increased the risk of the child’s death then coffee is an abortificient, and those who miscarry after drinking coffee are guilty of abortion. If it is instead that an abortion must be intended and desired then a person using the pill for medical reasons but who does not want their unborn children to die may have a miscarriage but they will not have an abortion.

I am sorry I am not following your argument. Frankly I do not think the Church condones the use of the pill in this instance. I see that the action of abortion is not intended directly but given that sexual relations is presumed in marriage then the consequences of the taking the pill surely have to be taken into account. You ask me what the difference is between abortion and miscarriage. The answer is clearly intent. I would like to get the opinion of a moral theologian here in case I am wrong but there are times in marriage when abstinence can be required. Taking the pill for medical reasons for a certain time is surely one of them. Is there any moral theologian on this forum that can cite references?

 

[Xantippe]

I am sorry I am not following your argument. Frankly I do not think the Church condones the use of the pill in this instance. I see that the action of abortion is not intended directly but given that sexual relations is presumed in marriage then the consequences of the taking the pill surely have to be taken into account. You ask me what the difference is between abortion and miscarriage. The answer is clearly intent. I would like to get the opinion of a moral theologian here in case I am wrong but there are times in marriage when abstinence can be required. Taking the pill for medical reasons for a certain time is surely one of them. Is there any moral theologian on this forum that can cite references?

I suspect you’ll find more moral theologians in the moral theology forum.

 

[EasterJoy]

When you have a medical question, second opinions ought to come from medical specialists, preferably those who concentrate on the problem you are suffering. We can’t give any medical advice here. Certainly hormone treatments that have the goal of treating a heavy bleeding problem such as you describe are morally permissible, even if a reduction or loss of fertility is a secondary side effect and not a primary reason for choosing the treatment.

As for the quality of life question, it sounds as if you are considering a try at a reversible treatment over jumping immediately into an irreversible treatment. IOW, from a quality of life standpoint, you aren’t stuck with the hormonal treatments if they aren’t a sufficient solution. Do ask your doctor to fully explain that aspect of your various treatment options, including a description of reversible and temporary side-effects, irreversible side-effects, possible complications, and what the effect of various scenarios you have in mind might be. In other words, be up front of about how you are weighing the options you are weighing, and that way you can feel more confident that you are hearing the doctor correctly.

I would think that would help your decision-making process, as well as giving you guidance about how to do self-assessments and revisit your decision as you go along. Decisions made with a good knowledge base from professional sources are preferable than decisions made with less information.

 

[THP]

I am a Catholic OB/GYN. I highly recommend this thread be closed and deleted. There is way too much medical advice being dispensed, some of which is completely wrong and dangerous.

 

[Gliggle]

My advice:

Your concern about sin is completely valid, if I was you, I would take the pill and abstain until you have a chance to talk to a priest and maybe do some reading, get a second opinion and find some solid answers. The pills will buy you some time to make the best decision; remember you can stop the pill any time but you can’t get back your womb. PLEASE DO NOT do nothing, your life is at stake.

Praying for you in this stressful time!

 

[thewanderer]

I am sorry I am not following your argument. Frankly I do not think the Church condones the use of the pill in this instance. I see that the action of abortion is not intended directly but given that sexual relations is presumed in marriage then the consequences of the taking the pill surely have to be taken into account. You ask me what the difference is between abortion and miscarriage. The answer is clearly intent. I would like to get the opinion of a moral theologian here in case I am wrong but there are times in marriage when abstinence can be required. Taking the pill for medical reasons for a certain time is surely one of them. Is there any moral theologian on this forum that can cite references?

I’m sorry that my post was confusing. I’m glad that you agree with me that the difference between the two is intent. The next question I would then ask you is if the difference is intent how can someone commit an abortion if they do not intend to do so? Foreseeing a possible outcome does not mean you intend or desire that outcome. So if a couple uses the pill for legitmate medical reasons, and engages in marital relations for legitimate relationship reasons, but neither intend nor desire the deaths of any of their unborn children how can they be guilty of abortion?

 

[EasterJoy]

Can you give me a quotation of principle then to support artificial birth control in this instance? Whilst it would be ok to use ABC if one were single to resolve an issue of irregular cycles or heavy bleeding - treating the same condition in marriage presents a different context. I would appreciate a quotation from a reputable source.

No, it doesn’t matter if the patient is married. Good grief, she could have had the hysterectomy and it wouldn’t have been immoral!

THP is right. While everyone posting is saying to get another opinion, it is being implied that a hysterectomy could not possibly be a medically urgent treatment or that a married woman can’t morally use treatments that reduce fertility as a side effect. Neither of these is true, and the belief that they are true could be dangerous to the patient or cause her unnecessary suffering by leading her to reject morally permissible treatments.

It is also not true that Christians are required to abstain from marital relations because one or both spouses is undergoing medical treatments that reduce fertility.

 

[Prodigirl]

"I know that birth control is deeply disordered … "

If you have an option to take hormone treatments which come in the form of birth control pills and, as a Catholic, you are not pulling a fast one and using the pills FOR birth control, then its use certainly could not be considered “disordered” even by the Magisterium.

If the Church would require you to have a hysterectomy instead of taking the completely less-invasive, less-traumatic, less-life-altering birth control pill to control dangerous and debilitating bleeding, what would that say about dogma?

You might check to see if you have Polycystic Ovary Syndrome. It can cause such bleeding.

 

[Cat]

Hello im a 26 yr old mother of four ive had very large babies all naturally and ive been hemorhaging for 3 days i am not post partum my youngest is 18 months im bleeding so bad i cant leave my house and yesterday i fainted. My husband rushed me to a clinic and the doctor is suggesting a hysterectomy i dont want one im far too young and want more children, he gave me another option i dont like which is hormonal bc im debating just living with the hemmorageing its only 7 days a month i could maybe survive if i keep my iron up right? I know that birth control is deeply disordered and intristically evil so i dont want to do it and hysterectomy is forever any one else survive severe bleeding like this without bc or medical intervention? Ive been bleeding like this for 5 momths by the way everytime i end up half dead by the end of my period

Not all anemias are related to iron-deficiency. Taking iron or increasing intake of iron-rich foods won’t help in certain types of anemia. Please don’t do this to “cure yourself.”

Please get some medical help, and don’t be afraid to survive and raise your beautiful children. God isn’t asking you to kill yourself.

 

[UbiCaritas]

"I know that birth control is deeply disordered … "

If you have an option to take hormone treatments which come in the form of birth control pills and, as a Catholic, you are not pulling a fast one and using the pills FOR birth control, then its use certainly could not be considered “disordered” even by the Magisterium.

If the Church would require you to have a hysterectomy instead of taking the completely less-invasive, less-traumatic, less-life-altering birth control pill to control dangerous and debilitating bleeding, what would that say about dogma?

Precisely.

Something that is often overlooked in these kinds of threads is that birth control pills are not intrinsically evil of themselves. They are a thing, a tool, if you will. Objects aren’t evil.

A similar example is this: a scalpel can be used in aborting a child. It can also be used to perform life-saving surgery. Just because it can be used to abort a baby doesn’t mean it’s evil. It’s a tool which can be used for good or bad purposes; it itself is morally neutral.

Likewise, birth control pills can be used for the wrong reasons, and they can be used for the right reasons. If using them can save a woman’s life or improve a medical condition, then they’re being used for good reasons. The unintended consequence of contraception is not a sin. A couple might not be comfortable with that unintended consequence, and may choose to abstain during the time that the wife is on the pill, but they aren’t required to.

The same is true of hysterectomies.

OP, get a second opinion from another doctor if you wish. Personally, unless I knew a doctor who recommended drastic treatment well, I’d probably get a second opinion if I had a drastic treatment recommended to me just on principle, whatever that treatment might be. However, if a hysterectomy or birth control are the best treatments for your condition, please use whichever is medically best for you. I understand that this may make you very sad, and hope you can work through the grieving process with whatever help is best for you. The important thing here, though, is a) that you not sin (and we’ve already shown that either treatment isn’t sinful) and b) that you take care of yourself and your children.

 

[Xantippe]

Precisely.

OP, get a second opinion from another doctor if you wish. Personally, unless I knew a doctor who recommended drastic treatment well, I’d probably get a second opinion if I had a drastic treatment recommended to me just on principle, whatever that treatment might be.

I agree, but if it was presented to me as an emergency life or death situation where action has to be taken NOW I would have to agree if the treatment was morally acceptable. Sometimes there really isn’t an opportunity to seek second opinions–for instance there are bad uterine rupture cases where they have to do a hysterectomy on the spot. I wouldn’t want to make too many inquires if there were a real possibility of bleeding out in the next few minutes if I don’t agree.

 

[UbiCaritas]

I agree, but if it was presented to me as an emergency life or death situation where action has to be taken NOW I would have to agree if the treatment was morally acceptable. Sometimes there really isn’t an opportunity to seek second opinions–for instance there are bad uterine rupture cases where they have to do a hysterectomy on the spot. I wouldn’t want to make too many inquires if there were a real possibility of bleeding out in the next few minutes if I don’t agree.

Oh, absolutely! No arguments here.

 

[Zelie_Louis]

Medical advice cannot be solicited nor offered at CAF. Please consult a health care professional. Thanks for your cooperation.