This Is Gonna Get Ugly

[LilyM]

But if he was taught as a Protestant that using ABC was not a sin…then he is not sinning in the eyes of his religion. So I don’t feel comfortable saying that he is sinning just because I believe it is a sin. Oh boy, this is getting tricky…

Well Christians of ALL stripes considered abortion and artificial contraception wrong until at least the 1930s. Strong evidence that the natural law, written by God on every Christian’s heart, probably convicts all of us deep down that it IS wrong.

But what I was getting at is that you have a duty to TRY to get him to see that it’s a sin and why. If he is hard of heart and refuses to listen, and insists on using contraception, you probably won’t be able to stop HIM from doing so, although you can and must refuse to take the pill yourself or anything. You aren’t necessarily obliged to stop having sex with him in these circumstances.

Read up on the concept of ‘mediate material cooperation with evil’. ascensionhealth.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=82rinciples-of-formal-and-material-cooperation&Itemid=171

There are some circumstances where, provided we do nothing ourselves to directly contribute to or enable the sin of another, we can kinda sorta go along with it. For example, working at or shopping at a store that you know sells condoms, that sort of thing. It is for you to prayerfully consider whether your situation may be one of them.

 

[Holly3278]

You may want to reconsider this statistic. The group that claimed the 99% actually only said that some parts of NFP were 99% effective. And actually, further clinical studies showed that it was only 75% effective.

One thing to consider is that there are two people in a marriage. Whatever you decide should surely be as a result of a conversation between the two of you.

And also, have you spoken about this with your Priest? If not, I would recommend you do so rather than take the word of people here…that is of absolutely no offence to people here (I, afterall, am one of them!), but don’t forget, not everyone who replies here are experts, and before making such a big decision it might be wise to talk to your own Priest.

(And by the way, it’s perfectly normal and okay to grieve for a loved pet. Just take the time you need.)

Ummm, even the Catechism states that birth control is sinful:

**2399 **The regulation of births represents one of the aspects of responsible fatherhood and motherhood. Legitimate intentions on the part of the spouses do not justify recourse to morally unacceptable means (for example, direct sterilization or contraception).

 

[crazzeto]

But if he was taught as a Protestant that using ABC was not a sin…then he is not sinning in the eyes of his religion. So I don’t feel comfortable saying that he is sinning just because I believe it is a sin. Oh boy, this is getting tricky…

The thing is though, objectivly there can only be a single truth of God right? After all, it’s not the religion, i.e. the Catholic Church which declares something sinful. It is God which declares something sinful! As another poster noted, until the 1930’s all Christian Churches were unaminous in denouncing contraception. As yet another poster noted, the sin of contraception is the sin of Onan. Now I wonder if (in all Charity) you’ve read of Onan, if not, allow me to share the scripture:

Gen 38:7 And Her, the first born of Juda, was wicked in the sight of the Lord: and was slain by him.
Gen 38:8 Juda, therefore, said to Onan his son: Go in to thy brother’s wife and marry her, that thou mayst raise seed to thy brother.
Gen 38:9 He knowing that the children should not be his, when he went in to his brother’s wife, he spilled his seed upon the ground, lest children should be born in his brother’s name.
Gen 38:10 And therefore the Lord slew him, because he did a detestable thing:

Now one might ask, what is wrong with contracepting? Well it has to do with a solid understanding of the trinaty, and for that I would direct you to Frank Sheeds Theology for Beginers, a wonderful book. I would also direct you to John Paul II’s Theology of the Body.

Essentially the purpose of human sexuality, ultimately, is to be an expression of Trinatarian love. The Father begaot the Son, the Son and the Father loved eachother so much that, that love became it’s self a new person, the Holy Spirit, eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son. Just so is marriage, and the marriage act. The difference in marriage is that you start with two, and they become one, begeting the third.

 

[3Sanctus]

I understand what you all are saying…I really do. But this isn’t just about me. My husband is in this marriage too and I feel like this is not fair for him. I sometimes wish he would of married someone else better suited for him. We are very different. I guess we should have explored that further before we got married 11 years ago. But of course, we are married to each other so here I am.

*edited to add a question- Is it a mortal sin to have relations at the very beginning or end of menstrual cycle? I am asking this since I am pretty sure there would be little chance of being fertile at that point

Natural Family Planning is a way of making sure you have relations when you are fertile/infertile (depending on your goals).

Keep in mind both that using artificial contraception is a sin and that most diocesan priests now-a-days are modernists who don’t follow Church teaching (and treat you strangely if you show up for confession once a week because you like receiving grace as often as possible…).

That said, find a traditional priest (FSSP or Institute of Christ the King Sovereign). They’ll be straight-laced and be able to provide the guidance you need. God bless you as you work through this in your marriage!

 

[MichaelR]

Ummm, even the Catechism states that birth control is sinful:

I didn’t say that it didn’t state that.

All I said is that some studies show that NFP isn’t as reliable as someone else said, so should be treated with care…and that before making any such serious changes in life based on Catholicism, she should consult her priest rather than relying on the judgement of non professionals on a forum.

Advice is great in some circumstances, but when it’s something this big, it should be her priest that has the most valuable advice.

 

[floresco]

But if he was taught as a Protestant that using ABC was not a sin…then he is not sinning in the eyes of his religion. So I don’t feel comfortable saying that he is sinning just because I believe it is a sin. Oh boy, this is getting tricky…

The Catholic Church makes a distinction between sin and culpability. Sin is something that exists objectively so it doesn’t matter what people believe about it. Culpability refers to how God judges people for their actions. This has a subjective element so what people believe can affect it. You can see how this distinction works in this situation. Using ABC is a sin. But it is possible that a person who does not know any better is not culpable.

Because culpability refers to God’s judgment of people, we never actually know how culpable specific people are in specific situations. We only know the sort of factors that affect culpability. Sin, on the other hand, we can make definite statements about.

 

[snowbee]

There ARE things that are intrinsically evil. And some that have lesser degrees depending on culpability. However, I think due to the widespread knowledge about what is good/evil that the Church teaches I think most people have little excuse to lower their culpability.

Also,
I’d trust the word of many people here over a nun/sister; depending on the order. A lot run around with if ANY theological training or inclination. Example, the one who ordered the abortion in the Catholic hospital.

 

[dailey]

Thank you again.

I did a search on the net and found that a Catholic church 10 minutes away offers classes and lots of info regarding NFP.

 

[floresco]

I did a search on the net and found that a Catholic church 10 minutes away offers classes and lots of info regarding NFP.

That’s great.

 

[dailey]

That’s great.

Thanks!

Just talked to my husband about this and like expected, he was pretty annoyed. He seems to think I’m a “holy roller” now and not fulfilling my wifely duty. He’s told me in the past that he doesn’t care if I cook, clean, etc. As long as we have sex then he is happy. Geeze, who even thinks like that??

 

[floresco]

Thanks!

Just talked to my husband about this and like expected, he was pretty annoyed. He seems to think I’m a “holy roller” now and not fulfilling my wifely duty. He’s told me in the past that he doesn’t care if I cook, clean, etc. As long as we have sex then he is happy. Geeze, who even thinks like that??

Me. Actually, it isn’t that uncommon. You might find it helpful to read The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands by Laura Schlessinger. Sex really is important to a lot of people. This book is good at explaining this to women who have trouble understanding this aspect of their husbands. If you come across like you are using the Church as an excuse to avoid sex, he is going to resent the Church.

 

[ProVobis]

The 1968 encyclical Humanae Vitae, penned by Pope Paul VI, explicitly forbids contraception as denying the Creator’s will that humans be fruitful and multiply.

Yes, but contrast that to what he said earlier in Progressio Populorum:

Population Growth

1. There is no denying that the accelerated rate of population growth brings many added difficulties to the problems of development where the size of the population grows more rapidly than the quantity of available resources to such a degree that things seem to have reached an impasse. In such circumstances people are inclined to apply drastic remedies to reduce the birth rate.

There is no doubt that public authorities can intervene in this matter, within the bounds of their competence. They can instruct citizens on this subject and adopt appropriate measures, so long as these are in conformity with the dictates of the moral law and the rightful freedom of married couples is preserved completely intact. When the inalienable right of marriage and of procreation is taken away, so is human dignity.

Finally, it is for parents to take a thorough look at the matter and decide upon the number of their children. This is an obligation they take upon themselves, before their children already born, and before the community to which they belong—following the dictates of their own consciences informed by God’s law authentically interpreted, and bolstered by their trust in Him. (39)

vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_26031967_populorum_en.html

 

[micahmike]

Thanks!

Just talked to my husband about this and like expected, he was pretty annoyed. He seems to think I’m a “holy roller” now and not fulfilling my wifely duty. He’s told me in the past that he doesn’t care if I cook, clean, etc. As long as we have sex then he is happy. Geeze, who even thinks like that??

** I **think like that too. I can cook for myself. I can clean up after myself. I am not an invalid, but I can’t have sex with my wife without my wife. That certainly isn’t to say that’s the only reason I keep her around, but I desire her greatly, and that’s at leats partly why I married her. I did not need or want someone to clean my clothes and tidy my house and prepare my food.

 

[LilyM]

** I **think like that too. I can cook for myself. I can clean up after myself. I am not an invalid, but I can’t have sex with my wife without my wife. That certainly isn’t to say that’s the only reason I keep her around, but I desire her greatly, and that’s at leats partly why I married her. I did not need or want someone to clean my clothes and tidy my house and prepare my food.

Fair enough. I should hope, of course, that EVERYONE values many things other than sexual attractiveness in their spouse and doesn’t make sex the primary focus of the relationship, or worse its be-all and end-all as so many seem to do.

What happens when you get older wrinklier and saggier (happens to all of us), and so less sexually attractive? What happens if you get ill or become disabled in some way, and so are unable to have sex for a lengthy period of time or perhaps permanently? Or if he gets a new job that requires a lot of travel and so is away a lot of the time? Or what if you do, assuming you work?

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Thank you for the advice everyone.

I will have to muster up the courage to call my church and talk to my priest. Not exactly looking forward to having a conversation about sex with him. However, I am not sure why I would even go to him? Is he not only going to tell me that witholding sex from husband is a sin?..and that using protection is also a sin? I feel like I’m *damned if I do, damned if I don’t".

My husband has always made it perfectly clear that sex was extremely important in the marriage. As a matter of fact, I would say 95% of the fights that we have had are because he feels we should have it more often. This is not going to sit well with him. Since this is a marriage between two people, how much should his opinion count? Hmmm, that didn’t come out the way I intended it to. Hopefully, you all know what I mean.

It’s better to go through that embarrasment now and put your mind at peace. I, like you, found at on returning to the church, that is was a sin…and having to confess it did make me

 

[micahmike]

What happens when you get older wrinklier and saggier (happens to all of us), and so less sexually attractive? What happens if you get ill or become disabled in some way, and so are unable to have sex for a lengthy period of time or perhaps permanently? Or if he gets a new job that requires a lot of travel and so is away a lot of the time? Or what if you do, assuming you work?

That would be a true blessing. As it is, my wife and I are too fertile for our own good and despite our best efforts at NFP (complete with serious reason!) we still end up with a baby every 15 months or so. Our relationship would be much easier if we never saw eachother again until after menopause. Sadly, that isn’y in the best interest of our slew of young children.

I’ve heard this argument before, and it really doesn’t hold water. Sex is easy to go without when it isn’t available. If my spouse lived in Norway, it would be much easier not to have sex with her. the funny thing is, if a man says “you know, among my favorite momments with my wife are the walks we take together each morning, watching the city wake up”. You wouldn;'t respond with “Yeah, but what if she looses her legs?!”, you’d say “Oh, that’s so sweet.” If she did loose her legs, God forbid, that would change things, but it would not change that love, nor would it be likely to make the man bitter. I don’t get frustrated when people can’t do things, but I might get frustrated when people choose not to do things. There’s a world of difference.

Also, I’m PLENTY old, wrinkly and saggy, thanks

 

[LilyM]

I’ve heard this argument before, and it really doesn’t hold water. Sex is easy to go without when it isn’t available. If my spouse lived in Norway, it would be much easier not to have sex with her. the funny thing is, if a man says “you know, among my favorite momments with my wife are the walks we take together each morning, watching the city wake up”. You wouldn;'t respond with “Yeah, but what if she looses her legs?!”, you’d say “Oh, that’s so sweet.” If she did loose her legs, God forbid, that would change things, but it would not change that love, nor would it be likely to make the man bitter. I don’t get frustrated when people can’t do things, but I might get frustrated when people choose not to do things. There’s a world of difference.

Yes, the difference being that word ‘among’. Sex is SUCH a huge factor for SO many marriages that it’s distinctly worrisome.

You don’t get men or women frequently saying ‘I don’t care if my spouse can’t cook or clean or anything else as long as I can go on those walks with him/her - couldn’t contemplate marrying a man/woman who isn’t real good in the walking department!’

Or even ‘oh, how COULD the Church possibly expect me to ever not walk with my spouse, for any reason, if I feel like doing it? Giving up those walks with my spouse is not even an option in my marriage - only celibate idiots who’ve never had someone to walk with could possibly expect us to go without the walks’.

Also, I’m PLENTY old, wrinkly and saggy, thanks

Hey, it’s only gonna get worse from here on in

 

[KingTheoden]

Dailey,

First, I’m sorry to read that your dog died. As a true animal lover, I know how important our companions are.

Regarding your discovery of some of the tougher aspects to living the Faith…

We are in a fallen world, and in the modern West, we are in a really fallen world. Our culture is systematically geared against life, family, and purity.

The good news is that we always have Christ with whom we unite our struggles and the Church He established. It is true, many parishes do not do a good job of teaching the faith and this can feel extremely isolating.

The best thing you should do is find a good priest committed to tradition who earnestly cares about you and your husband. Both of you need to talk to him in order to begin to work through the fact that contraception is completely unacceptable.

For other posters, I would really hold off on the NFP speech. NFP/rythm has a place in grave circumstances. A grave circumstance is like ‘I will get evicted if I have another child’ or ‘I will not be able to make my basic utilities if I have another child’ or even better 'my family will starve if we have another child.

NFP is not allowed for those who want to prevent conception to ‘have a bigger house’ or ‘get another car’ or ‘take a cruise to a beautiful beach.’

NFP is also not supposed to be a form of birth control. Again, it is to be used for grave reasons only.

It is disingenous to pitch it to people as fox all for two reasons 1) there is a fair chance of conception [so, telling people it is like birth control in that it prevents conception is not entirely correct] and 2)** it misses the crux of the matter: we need to be open to life, not looking for ways to stamp it out.**

Dailey, I know this feels like you’ve just been dropped in a hot zone and must be pretty painful. Again, never forget that no one felt more lonely than Christ and we have Him and all the Saints to rely on for help.

 

[Ohiomom]

Thank you again.

I did a search on the net and found that a Catholic church 10 minutes away offers classes and lots of info regarding NFP.

I have been beating my head against the keyboard due to some of the comments, but I want to keep to the point at hand.

The Church does not teach that you, as the wife, now decides or feels you can’t have sex with your husband. One of the ugly barriers set up by the contraceptive mentality is that fertility is a problem and children are a problem and or must be scheduled.

Teaching a method of NFP (charting, knowing your cycle) is a key part of infertility treatments. Why, because our cycles are not based on some unknown factor. It actually really teaches you to know your body and the signs that your are fertile.

In NFP, regardless of the method, you learn that communication between husband and wife is key. I have taken classes in both methods and encouraged the husband to be active in the charting and the result should be known by both husband and wife. Again, the core is knowing and respecting your ability as a woman to have a child- to give life.

True, a woman’s fertile time of her cycle is when she is most likely to be in the mood and most likely to give off the signals to her husband. That is when the couple decides if they are open to a new life.

Just for the record, I had my daughter at age 43, naturally and she is perfectly healthy.

 

[floresco]

Yes, the difference being that word ‘among’. Sex is SUCH a huge factor for SO many marriages that it’s distinctly worrisome.

It seems to me that making sex be a huge factor is pretty consistent with Church teaching. Not having consummated a marriage is grounds for annulment. Spouses are considered to have an obligation to have sex with each other. One of the traditional reasons for marriage is to be a “remedy for concupiscence” i.e. a moral means of dealing with one’s sex drive.

While we can’t use needing/wanting sex as an excuse for disobeying the Church, we are justified in considering sex to be very important.