This is Islam

[hiker63]

I have several questions I would like to ask a Muslim.

First : It is my understanding that Muslims believe that the Qu’ran is itself a miracle, that it was dictated directly to Mohammed - a perfect, complete, final, definitive message from God. Do I understand that correctly? If that is so, why are there so many contradictions in it? If one person received this revelation, how can these contradictions exist?

I know that some Muslims counter-argue that there are contradictions in the Bible, but that is actually not true. The Bible was not delivered into the hands of one person over 40 years (or so). It is a compilation of inspired writing from many authors, over one thousand years, chronicalling experiences of two thousand (or more) years. The difference being that in the Old Testament, when God seems “harsh”, he is schooling his people in holiness; He wants them to be a people set apart, so they will be recognizably different from everyone else (hence the strict dietary laws, etc.) As God’s Chosen People mature and grow in their understanding of Him over the centuries, internalizing the spirit of holiness, some of the “rules” may change, but not the underlying morality. Just as rules for a two year old are different from those for a 16 year old, but they both are taught that stealing, lying, etc. is wrong, and that they should love God above all things.

Second - Do Muslims believe that the Jews are God’s Chosen people? Do they believe in His covenant with Abraham? If so, do they believe it is everlasting, or is it now “invalid” due to Mohammed?

Last - it is my understanding that Muslims do not believe that Jesus actually died on the cross, that a “body double” did - someone everyone thought was Jesus. Is that correct? If so, on what do you base that conclusion? Also, how do you reconcile that thinking with the fact that Mary was at the foot of the cross until that person, whom she certainly believed was her son, died, and that the “imposter” speaks to her while dying on the cross, to entrust her to the care of one of Jesus’ disciples? Not to mention the many, many witnesses to whom Jesus appeared after the resurrection?

 

[deen]

Rand Al'Thor:

So I take it that the Islamic definition of “Christ” or “Messiah” is simply “prophet”?

You’re misunderstanding the Trinity. It isn’t worshipping more than one God, it is three persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) in one singular God.

How else can we take the meaning of “Messiah” and “Christ”? Maybe if we re-investigate the Bible, we might find numerous evidence that these words could not lead to divinity.

As for the Trinity. Please clarify your position by answering some of my questions:

Do you believe that Jesus was God-incarnate, full man and full God? If yes, can the finite and the infinite be one? “To be full” God means freedom from finite forms and from helplessness, and to be “full man” means the absence of divinity.

To be son is to be less than divine and to be divine is to be no one’s son. **How could Jesus have the attributes of sonship and divinity altogether? **

Maybe we can open a new thread about Trinity if you wish to discuss this further.

thx and peace,

deen

 

[speedy5]

well deen, you are certainly making a good case for islam.

 

[deen]

speedy5:

well deen, you are certainly making a good case for islam.

Thanks speedy. My duty is only to convey the truth. We Muslims should NOT force anyone to accept Islam nor should we riducule or mock the non-Muslims. We all share this planet and we respect the decision of our fellow human beings. It is only thru cool and open -minded approach that we can learn to understand each other and hopefully achive, even a step toward, peaceful coexistence despite of our differences.

peace,

deen

 

[elizabeth4truth]

Dear Deen,

Thank you for sharing. I like what you have written about Islam. It is more appealing to me.

One stumbling block, I hope you can shed some positive light on is how Muslim men treat women. Please explain the Muslim regard for women, in general. Are women considered equal, in spirit, to men? Are they considered lesser beings? If so, why?

Thank you,
Elizabeth

 

[speedy5]

That’s exactly how I feel.

 

[deen]

elizabeth4truth:

Dear Deen,

Thank you for sharing. I like what you have written about Islam. It is more appealing to me.

One stumbling block, I hope you can shed some positive light on is how Muslim men treat women. Please explain the Muslim regard for women, in general. Are women considered equal, in spirit, to men? Are they considered lesser beings? If so, why?

Thank you,
Elizabeth

Hi Elizabeth,

Thanks for your comment. I pray that you are having a great day. To answer your query, allow me to share with you a brief description of Women in Islam. The following words are not mine. I adapted them (with approval) from a brother who has written an excellent article about the issue.

Women in Islam

Women and men are equal before God. Both are accountable before God. They equally receive their reward in the Hereafter for their faith and good deeds.

Marriage is strongly encouraged and is both a legal agreement and a sacred bond. Islam sees every woman, married or unmarried, as an individual in her own right. She has the same right to own property, earn wealth and spend it as a man has. Her wealth does not become the property of her husband after marriage or divorce. A woman has the right to choose whom she marries and, when married, does not change her last name, out of respect for her lineage. A woman can seek divorce if her marriage does not work out.

Economically, each man and woman is an independent legal entity. Men and women have the right to own their individual property, engage in business, and inherit from others. Both have the equal right to receive an education and to enter into gainful employment, as long as Islamic principles are not violated.

Seeking knowledge is the obligation of every Muslim, male or female. The type of knowledge that is most emphasized is religious knowledge. It is also required within a society to have professionals of both genders available for the benefit of the public. For example, society requires doctors, teachers, counselors, social workers, and many other important vocations. When there is a shortage of qualified personnel, it may become obligatory for women or men to gain expertise in these fields to fulfill the needs of the Muslim community. In this situation, the guidelines of Islam are to be upheld.

Women are encouraged to seek Islamic knowledge, pursue their academic endeavors within the framework of Islam, and strive to fulfill their intellectual curiosity. To prevent anyone from getting an education is contrary to the teachings of Islam.

A man is responsible for maintaining and protecting his family and providing the basic needs such as food, clothing, and shelter for his wife, children, and (if needed) other female relatives in the household. Women are not primarily responsible for this, even if married. The Prophet Muhammadp said that the most perfect in faith among believers is he who is best in manners to his wife.

thx and peace,

deen

 

[hiker63]

deen:

Jesus and all the other prophets like Moses , Abraham and Mohammad (peace be upon them) have one message: To worship the One True God (The Creator) and avoid the worship of any creation.
It’s my pleasure to give you a brief description of Jesus in Islam:

Jesus was a Prophet and Messenger of God. He called to the oneness of God. He never claimed divinity for himself, nor did he ever ask to be worshipped.

He was born of a virgin. This was one of the many miracles regarding Jesus given by God. Jesus was born without a father. God says in the Qur’an, *“Truly the likeness of Jesus with God is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust and then said to him ‘Be!’ and he was.” *[Qur’an 3:59]

God created Jesus as He created everything else in existence. Jesus, Adam and Eve were all uniquely created: Jesus was created without a father; Adam and Eve were created without a father or a mother. The rest of us were all created with a mother and a father. To believe that Jesus is the begotten son of God or that God has any relatives such as a father, mother, son, or daughter, gives the attribute of procreation to The Creator. Muslims believe this to be polytheism and it is absolutely forbidden in Islam. Likewise, giving attributes of The Creator to His creation is a great sin, which in Islam is clearly in opposition to monotheism. This belief is in contradiction to the teachings of all the Prophets and Messengers of God.

God is beyond any created or human attributes. Jesus is the Messiah, the Christ, the word of God, the anointed one, sent by The Most Merciful God as a Prophet and Messenger.

God also informs us that Jesus, the son of Mary, is not dead, and that He raised Jesus up to Him. Muslims believe that the return of Jesus will be a sign of the Last Days. When Jesus returns, he will not come in the capacity of a Prophet and Messenger to bring new revelations. Rather, he will be the commander of the faithful and will destroy the antichrist, who will have brought to the earth enormous trials and evil. Jesus will follow the final manifestation of the law that was revealed to Muhammad.

Thx and peace,

deen

Deen,

It is my understanding that Muslims never use the word “loving” to describe God, in all the dozens of words used. Is that correct? The Christian understanding of God is that He is love itself. Love cannot exist without reciprocity. Love does not equate to bodily sexuality. It is certainly a mystery that God can be One God in three Divine Persons, but it is not polytheism. The trinity is never explicity defined in the Bible, but it is certainly foreshadowed and inferred. In the creation story of Genesis, God says, “Let US make man in OUR image.” Later, three “persons” come to visit Abraham, and he recognizes this as God, not angels. (Aren’t Muslims supposed to have respect for “The Book” adn what it contains?) Then Jesus talks about Himself as the Son of Man, and when He does, the Jews get angry, because they clearly understand He is saying He is God. Last, Jesus says that until He goes back to the Father, the Holy Spirit cannot come - who do you think He is talking about - A creature?

Last, do you not believe God is CAPABLE of becoming a man if He so chooses? Think about this - if you were a father and had ten children living in a crack house in the slummiest place on earth, absolutely unable to lift themselves out of a miserable existence (us, here on earth, with our fallen natures), would you not be willing to personally go down to that crack house, in its filth and danger, etc. to try to offer a way out to your children? Even if only one of your children responded to your efforts, would it not be worth it? That’s what love does. Love desires relationship.

It’s one of the major shortcomings of Islam (in my opinion) - the lack of acknowledging that God desires a relationship with us, that we are seen as His sons and daughters, not just his submissive servants.

We use familial terms to describe what is beyond our understanding, because it helps us grasp the nature of what God is and wants from us. That’s why the Bible uses the imagery of a marriage to describe Christ and His Church - because it is so intimate - and in its intimacy, it gives new life. It doesn’t mean God is having sex. I find it interesting that for Christians, the reward of heaven is simply to live in the presence of God, but to my knowledge, the Islamic expectations of heaven are described in terms of bodily pleasures, with examples in the Qu’ran of men getting lots of women and young boys to tend to their pleasures. (Who is tending to the pleasures of those women and young boys?)

 

[dennisknapp]

What is the nature of the Qu’ran?

Peace

 

[hiker63]

deen:

How else can we take the meaning of “Messiah” and “Christ”? Maybe if we re-investigate the Bible, we might find numerous evidence that these words could not lead to divinity.

As for the Trinity. Please clarify your position by answering some of my questions:

Do you believe that Jesus was God-incarnate, full man and full God? If yes, can the finite and the infinite be one? “To be full” God means freedom from finite forms and from helplessness, and to be “full man” means the absence of divinity.

To be son is to be less than divine and to be divine is to be no one’s son. **How could Jesus have the attributes of sonship and divinity altogether? **

Maybe we can open a new thread about Trinity if you wish to discuss this further.

thx and peace,

deen

Deen,

How can E = mc2? Like all the theories in high-level physics, it’s a mystery beyond our comprehension, but things point in that direction, even if we don’t understand it. And again I come to the question, do you think God is incapable of becoming a creature if He so desires? Isn’t one of the Islamic descriptors of God “all-powerful?”

 

[hiker63]

deen:

Hi,

Muslims totally believe in miracles. We have no problems accepting the miracles of Jesus (peace be upon him) because we know that God Almighty helped him to perform them.

The problem is that when people start to believe that Jesus performed those miracles as a sign of his divinity. We believe that God supported HIs prophets with miracles to prove to their people that they are true messengers of God.

Didnt the Bible say:

" All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth"

“I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear , I judge…”

Jesus also prayed to God before the miracle :

" And Jesus lifted up his eyes and said: Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.

…that they may believe that thou hast sent me." - John 11:41-43

Thx and peace,

deen

Deen,

Can you please give me the citations on your first three quotes?

Thanks.

 

[jimmy]

" All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth"

“I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear , I judge…”

Jesus also prayed to God before the miracle :

" And Jesus lifted up his eyes and said: Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.

…that they may believe that thou hast sent me." - John 11:41-43

Thx and peace,

deen

Yes all power was given to The Son from The Father. One point, Jesus did not pray before doing miracles. For example, look at the passage about the woman who had the hemoraging who touched his robe and was immediately healed.

Also, I noticed that you missunderstand the Trinity in an above post. You mention Christ being The Son of God in a way that that would mean that God gave birth to The Son. Your misunderstanding gives the impression that the Christian doctrine is defined under human circumstances and Christ is The Son of God in the same way that I am the son of my father. This is not the way Christian doctrine is defined. The title “Son of God” for Christ is the closest we can get to the actual understanding in human words. Christ is not the Son of God in the sense that God gave birth to Him or anything like that. God uses words and metaphors that we can understand.

I have had a discussion with a Muslim a couple of times. One of his main arguements against Christianity was similar to the above point. He argued that since God has no sperm, therefore he could have no Son. The problem with this arguement is that it is putting God under human terms. The word Son is a human word and has meaning only in relationship to Gods creation. God uses this word for His Son as a way to give us an understanding of who Christ is.

The Christian teaching is that The Son was begotten, not born which is what I think you are saying we believe. This can be seen in the Nicene creed.

 

[jimmy]

deen:

Maybe we can open a new thread about Trinity if you wish to discuss this further.

thx and peace,

deen

Good idea. I have started one deen. I hope to see you and others over there.

 

[Irenicist]

mike182d:

Perhaps, but I don’t buy it. When was Medina attacked to provoke Muhammed’s aggression?

You have lost me here. What are you talking about? If you mean “How did Christianity provoke the Muslim invasions?” it didn’t. But Muslims will argue that if Muslims had been free to preach and practice in Christian lands, there would have been no need for an invasion. I’m not justifying this stance. I am just trying to explain it to you. They argue that Chrisitan intolerance made the war necessary for Muslims to enjoy religious freedom.

mike182d:

Regarding Christianity, it was quite the opposite. For the first thousand years Christians were tortured, burned while being crucified (compliments of Nero), and fed to lions, but not once is there an instance of a Catholic “rebellion” against pagan-Roman oppression. The first time we see an instance of religious war in Catholicism is during the Crusades and this was brought about because of the influence of Islamic holy war and their unprecedented aggression and territorial conquests that threatened the existence of Europe during the Middle Ages.

Christianity became the official religion of the Roman empire in the 4th century and all other faiths (except Judaism) were banned in the 5th century. The crusades were not a response to Muslim aggression. They were a response to Muslims closing the holy sites of Palestine to Christian pilgrims. Muslims had conquered the Middle East in the 7th century and had been repulsed at Poitiers in France in the 8th. The crusades weren’t until the 11th century.

Irenicist

 

[Deus_Vult]

I have enjoyed reading the dialogue in this thread…but find it interesting that I have not gotten a response to my question for an explanation of the text in the Quran. I can wholeheartly say that if anyone had a question surrounding any part of the New Testament my fellow Roman Catholics on this forum would be up for the task. So I ask my question again…Please explain the following from the Quran and how is it that you say Islam is a religion of Peace…when the precepts of the religion quote otherwise?

ANNOUNCE PAINFUL PUNISHMENT TO THOSE WHO DISBELIEVE (9:3)

O Prophet! urge the believers to war; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred… (8:65)

Surely the vilest of animals in Allah’s sight are those who disbelieve (8:55)

And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah (8:39)

When the sacred months have passed away, THEN SLAY THE IDOLATERS WHEREVER YOU FIND THEM, AND TAKE THEM CAPTIVES AND BESIEGE THEM AND LIE IN WAIT FOR THEM IN EVERY AMBUSH, then if they repent and keep up prayer [become believers] and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them (9:5)

And if they intend to act unfaithfully towards you, so indeed they acted unfaithfully towards Allah before, but He GAVE YOU MASTERY OVER THEM (8:71)

FIGHT THEM: ALLAH WILL PUNISH THEM BY YOUR HANDS AND BRING THEM TO DISGRACE, AND ASSIST YOU AGAINST THEM. (9:14)

FIGHT THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN ALLAH, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, NOR FOLLOW THE RELIGION OF TRUTH, OUT OF THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN GIVEN THE BOOK [Christians and Jews], until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and THEY ARE IN A STATE OF SUBJECTION. (9:29)

O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination. (9:73)

O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil). (9:123)

I WILL CAST TERROR INTO THE HEARTS OF THOSE WHO DISBELIEVE. THEREFORE STRIKE OFF THEIR HEADS AND STRIKE OFF EVERY FINGERTIP OF THEM. THIS IS BECAUSE THEY ACTED ADVERSELY TO ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER; AND WHOEVER ACTS ADVERSELY TO ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER - THEN SURELY ALLAH IS SEVERE IN REQUITING (EVIL). THIS - TASTE IT, AND (KNOW) THAT FOR THE UNBELIEVERS IS THE PUNISHMENT OF FIRE. O you who believe! When you meet those who disbelieve marching for war, then turn not your backs to them. And whoever shall turn his back to them on that day - unless he turn aside for the sake of fighting or withdraws to a company - then he, indeed, becomes deserving of Allah’s wrath, and his abode is hell; and an evil destination shall it be. So you did not slay them, but it was Allah Who slew them and you did not smite when you smote (the enemy) but it was Allah Who smote, and that He might confer upon the believers a good gift from Himself; (8:12-17)

And that you should judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires, and be cautious of them, lest they seduce you from part of what Allah has revealed to you; but if they turn back, then know that Allah desires to afflict them on account of some of their faults; and most surely many of the people are transgressors. Is it then the judgment of the times of ignorance that they desire: and who is better than Allah to judge for a people who are sure? O YOU WHO BELIEVE! DO NOT TAKE THE JEWS AND THE CHRISTIANS FOR FRIENDS; THEY ARE FRIENDS OF EACH OTHER; AND WHOEVER AMONGST YOU TAKES THEM FOR A FRIEND, THEN SURELY HE IS ONE OF THEM; SURELY ALLAH DOES NOT GUIDE THE UNJUST PEOPLE. (5:49-51)

 

[mike182d]

Irenicist:

You have lost me here. What are you talking about? If you mean “How did Christianity provoke the Muslim invasions?” it didn’t. But Muslims will argue that if Muslims had been free to preach and practice in Christian lands, there would have been no need for an invasion. I’m not justifying this stance. I am just trying to explain it to you. They argue that Chrisitan intolerance made the war necessary for Muslims to enjoy religious freedom.

My ill-stated point was simply that they were free to worship in Medina and the seige on Mecca was offensive and not defensive.

Irenicist:

Christianity became the official religion of the Roman empire in the 4th century and all other faiths (except Judaism) were banned in the 5th century. The crusades were not a response to Muslim aggression. They were a response to Muslims closing the holy sites of Palestine to Christian pilgrims. Muslims had conquered the Middle East in the 7th century and had been repulsed at Poitiers in France in the 8th. The crusades weren’t until the 11th century.

Irenicist

I beg to differ. The Crusades were most certainly a response to Muslim aggression:

americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=4467

 

[deen]

hiker63:

It is my understanding that Muslims never use the word “loving” to describe God, in all the dozens of words used. Is that correct?

Hi,

God described Himself in the Qur’an with many names and attributes. Some of these are, All-Merciful, Most -Kind, All-Forgiving and **All-Loving ** (Al-Wadood in arabic). Please read the ff article for a better understanding of some of these attributes:

beautifulislam.net/tellmemore/god_and_love.htm#love

thx,

deen

 

[Eden]

What would your response be when a Christian would ask, “Aren’t you told in your religion to lie to non-believers if you need to, to deceive them about aspects of Islam that may be unpalatable to Westerners?” Is lying proscribed in the Qu’ran so that “the end justifies the means”?

 

[Maranatha]

deen:

Hey Maranatha,

I respectrfully disagree with you. The teachings of Islam are based on the Koran and sunnah (sayings, actions, and tacit approvals of the Prophet Muhammad). These sources are all also interpreted according to the understanding of the Prophet and those who were near to him. Amazingly, there is a science in Islam which authenticates these sayings and interpretations so that the Muslims will not stray from the correct path. Only those people with weakness in knowledge and who follow their own desires, will turn away from the true teachings of Islam.

I hope this helps

peace,

deen

Which correct path do they not stray from Sunni Muslim teaching , Shiite Muslim teachings or a third small sect? How can you say there is one path in Islam where there are so many interpretations that seem to be taken as valid?

 

[Irenicist]

mike182d:

My ill-stated point was simply that they were free to worship in Medina and the seige on Mecca was offensive and not defensive.

Muslims didn’t “conquer” Medina by “aggression”. They became the majority there through conversion. Mohammed and his followers had been expelled from Mecca. So you can hardly claim Muslims had been free to worship there.]

mike182d:

I beg to differ. The Crusades were most certainly a response to Muslim aggression:

americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=4467

If they were a response to Muslim aggression they were a very belated one. Muslims and Christians had been fighting for over three centuries when the first crusade was declared. It was ostensibly called to protect Christian pilgrimage rights. Which specific act of Muslim aggression do you feel prompted thenmm instead?

I might also suggest you try more reputable and conventional historical sources. Here, for what it’s worth is the Catholic Encyclopedia’s take on the crusades:

newadvent.org/cathen/04543c.htm

Irenicist