This is not a question about the problem of evil

[samiam1611]

…but it’s kind of related.

My question is not so much why is there evil in the world if God is omnibenevolent and omnipotent. (I understand the Catholic explanation for that - the fall, original sin, free will, etc.) My question is, why do you think God is all-powerful and all-good given all the sucky things in life that aren’t evil? To word it another way, if everyone stopped sinning and became good little Christians, sucky stuff would still exist. Why (theologically speaking) does my dog shed a ridiculous amount? Why (theologically speaking) do I get PMS? Why do computers crash, erasing all your data? Why do people have allergies to pollen?Why do cell phones lose service sometimes? How come mosquito bites itch? Acne. Not being able to find a parking spot. Losing a mitten. The list goes on and on. I mean obviously these things are not evil, but they are not good either, and so why doesn’t God cut us a break and fix these little things?

Is it because…God is not all-powerful and all-good? (He could be good and these things are out of his control, or powerful, and allow these things to happen just to mess with us.) You know, or God does not exist and these things just happen.

 

[benjohnson]

Perhaps consider the concept of “just enough light”

For the most of us, God doesn’t provide us with clear and convincing logical evidence of his existence so as to maintain the gift of free-will he has given us - to freely chose him or not.

For those that behave well, God gives us “just enough light” to come to him, and for those don’t behave well there’s “just enough light” to worry about the consequences of their actions.

Hence, why life is fully of possibilities - including annoying problems like hidous-hair-shedding-dogs that love us so much that they’re worth it.

 

[meltzerboy]

…but it’s kind of related.

My question is not so much why is there evil in the world if God is omnibenevolent and omnipotent. (I understand the Catholic explanation for that - the fall, original sin, free will, etc.) My question is, why do you think God is all-powerful and all-good given all the sucky things in life that aren’t evil? To word it another way, if everyone stopped sinning and became good little Christians, sucky stuff would still exist. Why (theologically speaking) does my dog shed a ridiculous amount? Why (theologically speaking) do I get PMS? Why do computers crash, erasing all your data? Why do people have allergies to pollen?Why do cell phones lose service sometimes? How come mosquito bites itch? Acne. Not being able to find a parking spot. Losing a mitten. The list goes on and on. I mean obviously these things are not evil, but they are not good either, and so why doesn’t God cut us a break and fix these little things?

Is it because…God is not all-powerful and all-good? (He could be good and these things are out of his control, or powerful, and allow these things to happen just to mess with us.) You know, or God does not exist and these things just happen.

For the little annoyances of life, I think we feel better after working to reduce or correct them than we would have felt if everything were to go wonderfully day in and day out. Ever hear of boredom? Excitement is the spice of life, for both good things and bad. The French have a saying: “Les gens heureux n’ont pas d’histoire” (Happy people have no story). That is, life is more interesting when you have challenges, even obstacles, to overcome, and you can take pride in your accomplishments and learn from your failures. This is for the smaller things that go wrong, but it may be applicable, to an extent, to the more serious issues in life as well.

 

[CatholicsRule]

God did not promise us Heaven on earth after Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden. We are here on earth to essentially work our way up to Heaven, where there are no problems, issues or sins. Our future in Eternity with God is dependent upon how we handle what we have thrown at us here on earth. No matter how tough it gets, remember one thing, God helps us get through all of this evil on earth if we ask Him to.

 

[fhansen]

…but it’s kind of related.

My question is not so much why is there evil in the world if God is omnibenevolent and omnipotent. (I understand the Catholic explanation for that - the fall, original sin, free will, etc.) My question is, why do you think God is all-powerful and all-good given all the sucky things in life that aren’t evil? To word it another way, if everyone stopped sinning and became good little Christians, sucky stuff would still exist. Why (theologically speaking) does my dog shed a ridiculous amount? Why (theologically speaking) do I get PMS? Why do computers crash, erasing all your data? Why do people have allergies to pollen?Why do cell phones lose service sometimes? How come mosquito bites itch? Acne. Not being able to find a parking spot. Losing a mitten. The list goes on and on. I mean obviously these things are not evil, but they are not good either, and so why doesn’t God cut us a break and fix these little things?

Is it because…God is not all-powerful and all-good? (He could be good and these things are out of his control, or powerful, and allow these things to happen just to mess with us.) You know, or God does not exist and these things just happen.

Any created thing, no matter how nearly perfect it is, will always be inferior to God and therefore will always be less than perfect, giving us an excuse to complain about our relative “suckiness” regardless.

 

[tabycat]

I remember an epasoled of the Twilight Zone: A gambler dies and thinks he has gone to Haven because he has all of the women he wants and wins at any game and slot machine he plays. When he asks the ‘angel’ that is watching ‘over’ him why ‘up here’ was boring, the ‘angel’ asks why he thinks it is 'up there (meaning the 'angel was really a devil and they were in hell).

 

[empther]

1. We cannot be happy unless we are persons. Dogs are not happy, or least they are incapable of the beatific vision.
2. To be persons we must have free will to choose between good and evil.
3. To have this free will, man must have the ability to cause harm.
4. Therefore, we are susceptible to harm in countless ways.

This won’t make somebody with a sprained ankle happy,
but if God were to perform miracles constantly to eliminate these annoyances,
then who would have free will?

 

[Qoeleth]

All that ‘sucky stuff’ is not real. If is just a part of the illusion of ‘this world’:

A play of shadows, dispersing smoke, a delusion. It is just a bad dream that you will wake up from. The world is illusion, I am illusion, you are illusion. Nothing matters. Nothing exists except for God.

Keep repeating that to yourself 1,000 times a day, and you willl find inner peace and a ready answer to any such theological problems.

 

[Sair]

…but it’s kind of related.

My question is not so much why is there evil in the world if God is omnibenevolent and omnipotent. (I understand the Catholic explanation for that - the fall, original sin, free will, etc.) My question is, why do you think God is all-powerful and all-good given all the sucky things in life that aren’t evil? To word it another way, if everyone stopped sinning and became good little Christians, sucky stuff would still exist. Why (theologically speaking) does my dog shed a ridiculous amount? Why (theologically speaking) do I get PMS? Why do computers crash, erasing all your data? Why do people have allergies to pollen?Why do cell phones lose service sometimes? How come mosquito bites itch? Acne. Not being able to find a parking spot. Losing a mitten. The list goes on and on. I mean obviously these things are not evil, but they are not good either, and so why doesn’t God cut us a break and fix these little things?

Is it because…God is not all-powerful and all-good? (He could be good and these things are out of his control, or powerful, and allow these things to happen just to mess with us.) You know, or God does not exist and these things just happen.

Love your take on this. Anyone might think we live in a naturalistic, probabalistic, imperfect, undesigned reality, huh?

 

[Sair]

All that ‘sucky stuff’ is not real. If is just a part of the illusion of ‘this world’:

A play of shadows, dispersing smoke, a delusion. It is just a bad dream that you will wake up from. The world is illusion, I am illusion, you are illusion. Nothing matters. Nothing exists except for God.

Keep repeating that to yourself 1,000 times a day, and you willl find inner peace and a ready answer to any such theological problems.

I doubt very much that supposing my earthly life to be a delusion will make the parking fine I incurred by accidentally parking in a permit zone outside my favourite local markets just go away; could you imagine me taking that to the court hearing? “Sorry, your Honour - I assumed that all the ‘sucky stuff’ was just part of the generally illusory nature of earthly reality. If you have a problem, take it up with God.”

Yeah. That would go well…

 

[Sair]

1. We cannot be happy unless we are persons. Dogs are not happy, or least they are incapable of the beatific vision.

If I could have the happiness I have witnessed in dogs, there are many things I would give up for it - anyone who doubts that dogs experience the purest pleasure and contentment has never spent any time in their company; or if they have, has been woefully inadequate in their observations.

1. To be persons we must have free will to choose between good and evil.

Debatable - how do you even define ‘good’ and ‘evil’, and to what extent are they related to the pleasure and pain experienced by all sentient beings? If you think only humans can discern the difference between what will make them feel good and what will make them feel bad, then again, you have never adequately observed your nonhuman cousins.

1. To have this free will, man must have the ability to cause harm.

Rubbish. You don’t have to be able to cause harm in order to perceive it or even prevent it. An all-powerful god could very easily, at no cost to itself, have made beings who instinctively incline towards benevolence, through their own free choice, without violating any freedom of will on the part of said beings. There would be no logical contradiction in such thoughtful creation.

1. Therefore, we are susceptible to harm in countless ways.

We most certainly are susceptible to harm, but the manifold ways in which we are so often have little to do with whether we perceive or may cause such harm; most people, during their lives, will unwittingly cause harm or be the subject of harm unwittingly caused by another, or by impersonal factors beyond their influence - that is just part of the balance of nature.

This won’t make somebody with a sprained ankle happy,
but if God were to perform miracles constantly to eliminate these annoyances,
then who would have free will?

Never mind ‘constantly’ - how about at all, ever? I might at this point draw your attention to a rather brilliant song by a fellow Australian, Tim Minchin. He makes a pretty pertinent point about the idea that God might intervene in the lives of those who believe and pray for relief from particular ailments and misfortunes, little supposing that if God really existed, He might have some rather more pressing concerns…

 

[Paddy_Walker]

you have discovered a paradox of sorts. you desire perfection but find imperfection all around you. but you are part of this imperfect world too. so how can you long for perfection if you are part of imperfection and if perfection does not exist.
setbacks, or trials in life, are for teaching patience and perseverance etc. also they show the contrast between what we want and what is possible which in turn leads us to think about where our desire for perfection comes from, it too, like all in the natural world, must have its source.

 

[Sair]

you have discovered a paradox of sorts. you desire perfection but find imperfection all around you. but you are part of this imperfect world too. so how can you long for perfection if you are part of imperfection and if perfection does not exist.
setbacks, or trials in life, are for teaching patience and perseverance etc. also they show the contrast between what we want and what is possible which in turn leads us to think about where our desire for perfection comes from, it too, like all in the natural world, must have its source.

The very concept of perfection is highly problematic - who decides what constitutes ‘perfection’, anyway? I certainly don’t harbour any illusions as to my own ability to perceive or achieve it. As we go through life, we learn what is possible, and under what circumstances, and if we are careful, if we are lucky, if we are sensible, we can find the balance between what we need, what we want, and what is possible. Where we discern problems is in finding that it ought to be possible for certain people to achieve certain goals, but that they are prevented from doing so by circumstances - sometimes those circumstances are unchangeable; at other times, they are the result of purely human-generated injustices.

 

[Paddy_Walker]

The very concept of perfection is highly problematic - who decides what constitutes ‘perfection’, anyway? I certainly don’t harbour any illusions as to my own ability to perceive or achieve it. As we go through life, we learn what is possible, and under what circumstances, and if we are careful, if we are lucky, if we are sensible, we can find the balance between what we need, what we want, and what is possible. Where we discern problems is in finding that it ought to be possible for certain people to achieve certain goals, but that they are prevented from doing so by circumstances - sometimes those circumstances are unchangeable; at other times, they are the result of purely human-generated injustices.

who decides there is perfection? you do. when you say, ‘what we want’. there will always be that desire in humans, it is what drives humans. it is what drives them to find that source of perfection which they want, even if they are unable to express that thought; and it is also that which drives people to destroy themselves. have we any other animal that commits suicide?

 

[empther]

I would have to write 10,000 words to fully reply to pantheist Sair’s post 11 harangue.
This will have to suffice for now---------

Originally Posted by empther

1. We cannot be happy unless we are persons. Dogs are not happy, or least they are incapable of the beatific vision.

If I could have the happiness I have witnessed in dogs, there are many things I would give up for it - anyone who doubts that dogs experience the purest pleasure and contentment has never spent any time in their company; or if they have, has been woefully inadequate in their observations.

The implication of your comments is that this world presents the best possible happiness.
You ignore or are unaware of the promise

But as it is written:
“What eye has not seen, and ear has not heard,
and what has not entered the human heart,
what God has prepared for those who love him,”
– 1 Corinthians, 2:9

Another version:

That is what the Scriptures mean when they say, “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, and no mind has imagined what God has prepared for those who love him.”

 

[Sair]

who decides there is perfection? you do. when you say, ‘what we want’. there will always be that desire in humans, it is what drives humans. it is what drives them to find that source of perfection which they want, even if they are unable to express that thought; and it is also that which drives people to destroy themselves. have we any other animal that commits suicide?

How might you explain the fact that, for example, stoicism sees a great difference between what we might desire and what constitutes perfection, at least in terms of the virtues by which one ought to live? If I recall correctly, Christianity embraced stoicism far more than it ever embraced hedonism. And even Epicurus counselled against the thoughtless pursuit of pleasure to one’s ultimate detriment.

I would have to do some research into whether or not other animals have any tendency to commit suicide - the closest to an example I can think of at short notice is whales who beach themselves; we don’t really understand why they do this, but can’t discount the possibility that they are driven by similar psychological turmoil to that which leads humans to kill themselves. There is certainly ample evidence that other animals experience depression, but it’s also true that they generally lack the means by which to accomplish suicide in anything like a quick or painless manner.

 

[fred_conty]

When we live in this world, we live in constant change. Everything is changing, either for the better, for the worse, or just different. Nothing is constant for very long.

So nothing in this life can be perfect, even if it were, it still would be open to change, which means is will lose its perfection.

It seems to me that for something to be perfect, it must be that way without possibility for change. Otherwise perfection might change to imperfection. Perfection in this case means it would have stability without possiblity of change.

This is what the church tells us. Heaven is that place of perfection without the possibility of change for the worse.

This world, and everything in it is in transition. We live in transition, thirsting for something better. And nothing here ever satisfies it, for the thirst goes on and on. For we never reach perfection tho we do try to improve. Even nature is in constant flux to advance in its environment.

We live in imperfection and that is what we have to deal with living in a world of change.

Just some thoughts.

 

[samiam1611]

Lots of interesting answers here. I will address a few of them now.

Perhaps consider the concept of “just enough light”

For the most of us, God doesn’t provide us with clear and convincing logical evidence of his existence so as to maintain the gift of free-will he has given us - to freely chose him or not.

For those that behave well, God gives us “just enough light” to come to him, and for those don’t behave well there’s “just enough light” to worry about the consequences of their actions.

Hence, why life is fully of possibilities - including annoying problems like hidous-hair-shedding-dogs that love us so much that they’re worth it.

That is a reasonable explanation. Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut. Though it does not address some of my examples…such as losing a mitten. (Silly I know but my mom got me these mittens in my favorite color, fuschia, and they had little gemstones on them and they were sooo pretty and then I lost one of them after only wearing them like 3 times! And I know exactly where I lost it but it wasn’t there when I went back to find it!) WHY GOD WHY?!:crying: No but seriously that’s a good answer.

For the little annoyances of life, I think we feel better after working to reduce or correct them than we would have felt if everything were to go wonderfully day in and day out. Ever hear of boredom? Excitement is the spice of life, for both good things and bad. The French have a saying: “Les gens heureux n’ont pas d’histoire” (Happy people have no story). That is, life is more interesting when you have challenges, even obstacles, to overcome, and you can take pride in your accomplishments and learn from your failures. This is for the smaller things that go wrong, but it may be applicable, to an extent, to the more serious issues in life as well.

There is certainly some truth here - I don’t disagree - but still doesn’t explain theologically why these things happen…especially the little things that are not even conversation-worthy. Yours is a naturalistic explanation.

God did not promise us Heaven on earth after Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden. We are here on earth to essentially work our way up to Heaven, where there are no problems, issues or sins. Our future in Eternity with God is dependent upon how we handle what we have thrown at us here on earth. No matter how tough it gets, remember one thing, God helps us get through all of this evil on earth if we ask Him to.

Your explanation seems to be addressing the problem of evil. Is it your position that even the little stuff, like static on the radio when my new favorite song comes on, is Adam’s and Eve’s fault?

All that ‘sucky stuff’ is not real. If is just a part of the illusion of ‘this world’:

A play of shadows, dispersing smoke, a delusion. It is just a bad dream that you will wake up from. The world is illusion, I am illusion, you are illusion. Nothing matters. Nothing exists except for God.

Keep repeating that to yourself 1,000 times a day, and you willl find inner peace and a ready answer to any such theological problems.

LOL!

Love your take on this. Anyone might think we live in a naturalistic, probabalistic, imperfect, undesigned reality, huh?

:yup:

 

[warpspeedpetey]

…obviously these things are not evil, but they are not good either, and so why doesn’t God cut us a break and fix these little things?..

P1. An omnibenevolent and omnipotent G-d would not let things that annoy me exist.
P2. Things that annoy me exist

C1. Therefore there is no G-d.

Like all other variations of the POE, this one is also clearly non sequitur. We cannot infer any value judgement to G-ds actions because we do not possess all the information that He possesses. Claims to the contrary represent the fallacy of incredulity.

 

[CatholicsRule]

To SamIam 1611 - I am not suggesting that at all, although I can see how you can take that from my post. I’m saying that that there is no Paradise on earth because of Adam and Eve.