This is not a question about the problem of evil

[samiam1611]

P1. An omnibenevolent and omnipotent G-d would not let things that annoy me exist.
P2. Things that annoy me exist

C1. Therefore there is no G-d.

Like all other variations of the POE, this one is also clearly non sequitur. We cannot infer any value judgement to G-ds actions because we do not possess all the information that He possesses. Claims to the contrary represent the fallacy of incredulity.

Is there a fancy philosophical term for “what a cop-out” ?

 

[Paddy_Walker]

Is there a fancy philosophical term for “what a cop-out” ?

yup, its called jumping the gun, haste makes waste, where angels fear to thread, and lots of other variations on the idea that to make a decision before you know everything relevant will probably lead to a great fall.

 

[Paddy_Walker]

How might you explain the fact that, for example, stoicism sees a great difference between what we might desire and what constitutes perfection, at least in terms of the virtues by which one ought to live? If I recall correctly, Christianity embraced stoicism far more than it ever embraced hedonism. And even Epicurus counselled against the thoughtless pursuit of pleasure to one’s ultimate detriment.

I would have to do some research into whether or not other animals have any tendency to commit suicide - the closest to an example I can think of at short notice is whales who beach themselves; we don’t really understand why they do this, but can’t discount the possibility that they are driven by similar psychological turmoil to that which leads humans to kill themselves. There is certainly ample evidence that other animals experience depression, but it’s also true that they generally lack the means by which to accomplish suicide in anything like a quick or painless manner.

all philosophical schools are the result of attempting a reconciliation for the desire in humans vs practical life. each school settled in varying degrees of discomfort on a solution du jour.
the search for perfection allows for these types of behaviour which will not be found among the cattle of the field; a wealthy man becomes more wealthy and then kills himself; a catholic hermit monk possesses nothing, sleeps on a sandy beach at night leaving his ribmarks in the sand, up in the dark before morning standing in freezing water praying with arms up stretched for hours maybe. but walks through his day happy, cheerfully labouring for others.
two different schools of thought for the same problem. if the problem did not exist we would be cattle standing in a field.

the reason why whales beach themselves may be akin to why injured dogs crawl away and hide, as we are told, through fear and non-comprehension and seeking a little comfort and safety from what frightens them. as air-breathing mammals in an ocean to commit suicide would be to sink beneath the waves and not resurface, to beach is at least to be able to continue breathing when strength fails.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

yup, its called jumping the gun, haste makes waste, where angels fear to thread, and lots of other variations on the idea that to make a decision before you know everything relevant will probably lead to a great fall.

lol

 

[samiam1611]

yup, its called jumping the gun, haste makes waste, where angels fear to thread, and lots of other variations on the idea that to make a decision before you know everything relevant will probably lead to a great fall.

I’m not sure what decision you are talking about. I asked a question. WSP accused me of fallacious arguments without even answering my question except that lame “We don’t know God’s mind” * cra p.

I see a discordance in the existence/occurrence of “sucky” stuff and a good powerful God that is not answered by Catholicism’s answer to the problem of evil. (The problem of evil being the most closely related issue that the Church addresses that I know of.)
So WSP, how about it? Wanna take another shot? or is we don’t know God’s mind* the best you can come up with?

Again…I am not making an argument. I’m calling it like I see it, and am asking how you all resolve the discord of sucky stuff happening when there is a God perfectly capable of preventing these things without affecting free will. WSP’s response basically said I don’t know meanwhile accusing me of bad arguments when I hadn’t even made any argument at all. Maybe WSP’s faith that God is good is so simplistic that he can’t explain why it is not irrational.

I’d like to give WSP a chance to say something of substance not just wave his hands wildly and shrug before I make up my mind that he has blind irrational faith instead of reasonable belief.

*typing on my phone so don’t feel like copying and pasting your exact words but that’s the gist of it

 

[warpspeedpetey]

Is there a fancy philosophical term for “what a cop-out” ?

In using that term, you first presume that there is some preexisting bad behavior to be excused. As I just pointed out such an inference is a logical fallacy. That means it is false reasoning.

This isn’t rocket science. If you just want to hate on G-d then go back to whatever pleasures the larger secular society has given you license. It seems a waste of time to fight Him. The empirical evidence of history shows that religion cannot be permanently suppressed. Even when the state possesses complete power. Everyone from the Romans to Marxist atheists have tried. They always failed. Now, with contraception and abortion the secular birth rate is below your replacement rate. Darwin is ruthless. Who would thought he was on our side? lol.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

I’d like to give WSP a chance to say something of substance not just wave his hands wildly and shrug before I make up my mind that he has blind irrational faith instead of reasonable belief…

I have shown your argument is false by pointing out that it entails a logical fallacy. Your argument is now POOF gone. As intellectually dead as any other argument that relies on a logical fallacy.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

In using that term, you first presume that there is some preexisting bad behavior to be excused. As I just pointed out such an inference is a logical fallacy. That means it is false reasoning.

This isn’t rocket science. If you just want to hate on G-d then go back to whatever pleasures the larger secular society has given you license. It seems a waste of time to fight Him. The empirical evidence of history shows that religion cannot be permanently suppressed. Even when the state possesses complete power. Everyone from the Romans to Marxist atheists have tried. They always failed. Now, with contraception and abortion the secular birth rate is below your replacement rate. Darwin is ruthless. Who would thought he was on our side? lol.

Like this.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[samiam1611]

I have shown your argument is false by pointing out that it entails a logical fallacy. Your argument is now POOF gone. As intellectually dead as any other argument that relies on a logical fallacy.

I didn’t make an argument! What are you talking about? I asked a question. Look at the title of this thread. Read my OP again. Everyone else understands the question and has given respectable answers. You basically dressed up “I don’t know” in fancy language and insinuated I was the one with the problem. Like my question was dumb. I know I use casual made up words like sucky and you use phrases I have to google, but I’m not dumb. As with most of my posts on CAF I just want to converse with and learn from Catholics and anyone else who wants to chime in.
From now on I will just address intelligent polite answers like Fred conty’s in post #17. Fred, I gtg right now but I liked your answer and will write a response when I get a chance.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

I didn’t make an argument! What are you talking about? I asked a **question…**You obviously did make an argument with premises and conclusions. I listed them in my original reply.

You basically dressed up “I don’t know” in fancy languageand insinuated I

 

[samiam1611]

For those that need a reminder of what this thread is about:

My question is, why do you think God is all-powerful and all-good given all the sucky things in life that aren’t evil?

I’ve gotten some thoughtful answers, like this one from fred:

When we live in this world, we live in constant change. Everything is changing, either for the better, for the worse, or just different. Nothing is constant for very long.

So nothing in this life can be perfect, even if it were, it still would be open to change, which means is will lose its perfection.

It seems to me that for something to be perfect, it must be that way without possibility for change. Otherwise perfection might change to imperfection. Perfection in this case means it would have stability without possiblity of change.

This is what the church tells us. Heaven is that place of perfection without the possibility of change for the worse.

This world, and everything in it is in transition. We live in transition, thirsting for something better. And nothing here ever satisfies it, for the thirst goes on and on. For we never reach perfection tho we do try to improve. Even nature is in constant flux to advance in its environment.

We live in imperfection and that is what we have to deal with living in a world of change.

Just some thoughts.

These are very good observations of why perfection cannot be attained in this world we live in. :yup: Change, transition. They are facts of life, and imperfection cannot be avoided in something that changes. Exactly what you said. You are very wise fred. :tiphat:

It ties in with what Paddy said:

who decides there is perfection? you do. when you say, ‘what we want’. there will always be that desire in humans, it is what drives humans. it is what drives them to find that source of perfection which they want, even if they are unable to express that thought; and it is also that which drives people to destroy themselves.

Yeah. It would be kind of impossible for life (this life, life as we know it) to be perfect bc perfection doesn’t mean exactly the same thing for everyone.

It is interesting to note how different people seek perfection, or eliminate imperfection. Like you said, some people kill themselves to escape the imperfections in their lives. Others have a conviction or hope that if they can make it through this life, another life of a different sort, awaits them. Others are just like whatev.

So even though the sucky stuff isn’t evil, it is part of the world we live in, and God chose to make it this way. Oh cra p I’m back to my original question - what reasons can be put forth as possible explanations? Ben’s in post #2 was pretty on point. I need more though…

Oh and separate but related, is Heaven boring? Since there is no possibilities, no transitions? I need to brush up on the Church’s teachings on Heaven. It’s mentioned all the time but I’ve never really focused my study on it specifically. Off I go.

 

[shoe]

…but it’s kind of related.

My question is not so much why is there evil in the world if God is omnibenevolent and omnipotent. (I understand the Catholic explanation for that - the fall, original sin, free will, etc.) My question is, why do you think God is all-powerful and all-good given all the sucky things in life that aren’t evil? To word it another way, if everyone stopped sinning and became good little Christians, sucky stuff would still exist. Why (theologically speaking) does my dog shed a ridiculous amount? Why (theologically speaking) do I get PMS? Why do computers crash, erasing all your data? Why do people have allergies to pollen?Why do cell phones lose service sometimes? How come mosquito bites itch? Acne. Not being able to find a parking spot. Losing a mitten. The list goes on and on. I mean obviously these things are not evil, but they are not good either, and so why doesn’t God cut us a break and fix these little things?

Is it because…God is not all-powerful and all-good? (He could be good and these things are out of his control, or powerful, and allow these things to happen just to mess with us.) You know, or God does not exist and these things just happen.

I think that the reason for life’s minor irritations, as well as life’s major ones, are in keeping with the Bible. Genesis says that God created a world without suffering and hardship; but that the first human beings misused their gift of free-will choices by choosing to rebel against God’s love and goodness, thereby ushering in suffering and hardship, including the minor irritations of life. I think that our displeasure over the unfair things of this world is in reality evidence for the existence of God in that we in our displeasure are actually presupposing a standard that says many things in life are by no means perfect, a standard that is unable to exist without the existence of the all-perfect God.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

For those that need a reminder of what this thread is about:…

We know what the thread is about. You wish us to offer theodices for a variation of the POE. yet as you can draw no information from such offerings what’s the point? If one is offered you cannot know if it is true and if one is not offered you can draw no conclusion from it without fallacy. So what’s the point of the question? What part of this isn’t clear? Unless you’re omniscient yourself it is impossible to make any value judgement concerning G-ds actions. Could I judge your actions morality without possessing all the pertinent information? Of course not. How is it any different for you?

 

[minkymurph]

…but it’s kind of related.

My question is not so much why is there evil in the world if God is omnibenevolent and omnipotent. (I understand the Catholic explanation for that - the fall, original sin, free will, etc.) My question is, why do you think God is all-powerful and all-good given all the sucky things in life that aren’t evil? To word it another way, if everyone stopped sinning and became good little Christians, sucky stuff would still exist. Why (theologically speaking) does my dog shed a ridiculous amount? Why (theologically speaking) do I get PMS? Why do computers crash, erasing all your data? Why do people have allergies to pollen?Why do cell phones lose service sometimes? How come mosquito bites itch? Acne. Not being able to find a parking spot. Losing a mitten. The list goes on and on. I mean obviously these things are not evil, but they are not good either, and so why doesn’t God cut us a break and fix these little things?

Is it because…God is not all-powerful and all-good? (He could be good and these things are out of his control, or powerful, and allow these things to happen just to mess with us.) You know, or God does not exist and these things just happen.

Speaking of things going wrong and frustrations - now my computer is alive again I can join the thread.

You asked for a theological answer, I stress the one I am about to give you is theory - no more, no less.

I have a theory concerning the fall. I believe it is God’s purpose for us to become ‘God-like.’ We share his imaging and that is our destiny. The fall may have been necessary in order to become God-like. I am not talking predestination or God planned it to happen in the way it did. In fact, even if you read the Genesis account of the fall literally we don’t know exactly what happened. As I said, I do not mean God intended it to happen in the way it did. We have free will. What I think is it was inevitable that sooner or later, somewhere along the line, someone of their own free will would have done something they shouldn’t which would have transformed their nature and that of others even if Adam and Eve had not. In which case, God was always going to have to intervene on behalf of the human race in order for them to become God-like.But that aside as it’s not the point I’m making. Bear with me to explain the theory.

The ‘tree of knowledge’ gave Adam and Eve a knowledge of good and bad. Could one become God-like if one did not know what good and bad was? Could we know good and bad simply from being told in a God-like way? That’s just one to ponder. Think of a world where frustrations, inconveniences, irritations etc. did not happen. If we never experienced any of these things, could we become God-like? It could be argued God could simply just tell us. However, being told is not the same thing as experience.

Imagine possessing a supernatural power and using it to ensure our children never lost anything. What would they learn? They would not learn personal responsibility and in addition, they would never experience the joy of finding anything. If we never lost anything nothing ever got broken, we would probably have houses full of outdated junk, and we would never learn to repair anything and we may never learn to create (or invent) anything. If we never got frustrated, we may never feel a sense of achievement when we succeed.

Cont. in next post

 

[minkymurph]

…but it’s kind of related.

My question is not so much why is there evil in the world if God is omnibenevolent and omnipotent. (I understand the Catholic explanation for that - the fall, original sin, free will, etc.) My question is, why do you think God is all-powerful and all-good given all the sucky things in life that aren’t evil? To word it another way, if everyone stopped sinning and became good little Christians, sucky stuff would still exist. Why (theologically speaking) does my dog shed a ridiculous amount? Why (theologically speaking) do I get PMS? Why do computers crash, erasing all your data? Why do people have allergies to pollen?Why do cell phones lose service sometimes? How come mosquito bites itch? Acne. Not being able to find a parking spot. Losing a mitten. The list goes on and on. I mean obviously these things are not evil, but they are not good either, and so why doesn’t God cut us a break and fix these little things?

Is it because…God is not all-powerful and all-good? (He could be good and these things are out of his control, or powerful, and allow these things to happen just to mess with us.) You know, or God does not exist and these things just happen.

There are societies were people accept the things that irritate us as of no consequence. Dog hair - some people make things out of it (not that I’ve ever tried that myself ) and if we lived in a tent or a mud hut it is likely we wouldn’t care about animal hair. PMS - also depends on your view. Things like PMS and depression are practically non-existent in African countries. Not because people don’t get it, they just have a different way of dealing with it and probably have more support from family, friends and neighbors. These things annoy us because we feel it stands in the way of what we want to do, and because contemporary society lives a delusional, superficial existence. By that I mean culture determines we are to go around pretending we wonderful lives when in fact we don’t. We’re just not honest enough to admit it other than to those who are close to us.

We also create a lot of our own problems. Allergies are often a consequence of pollution or the junk in over-processed food full of additives, starch and sugar. There is also an argument allergies are on the rise because we are paranoid about germs and have lost immunity. We choose to restrict budgets on parking spaces because of the financial cost and desire for a nice view. We choose to use our car when we don’t really need to, and good manners and consideration for other road users would be a solution for those who appear to be of the opinion they need more than one space or whose parking skills leave something to be desired.

On a lighter note, I have a theory that cell phones and computers break down on purpose to show us how inadequate we are without them, and some day they will develop minds of their own and decide to get rid of their human masters.
I got that from an old 80’s song by Hazel O’Connor called ‘Eighth Day.’

Mosquito’s - who or what would we swat if they were not around? The question I can’t answer in relation to mosquito’s is why they only seem to attack people who itch when they get bitten? I’ve heard it may be something to do with the sugar or chemical constitution of blood and they stop attacking you if you eat different things? My policy is to drink beer when under attack. That way they get a hangover.

 

[minkymurph]

…but it’s kind of related.

My question is not so much why is there evil in the world if God is omnibenevolent and omnipotent. (I understand the Catholic explanation for that - the fall, original sin, free will, etc.) My question is, why do you think God is all-powerful and all-good given all the sucky things in life that aren’t evil? To word it another way, if everyone stopped sinning and became good little Christians, sucky stuff would still exist. Why (theologically speaking) does my dog shed a ridiculous amount? Why (theologically speaking) do I get PMS? Why do computers crash, erasing all your data? Why do people have allergies to pollen?Why do cell phones lose service sometimes? How come mosquito bites itch? Acne. Not being able to find a parking spot. Losing a mitten. The list goes on and on. I mean obviously these things are not evil, but they are not good either, and so why doesn’t God cut us a break and fix these little things?

Is it because…God is not all-powerful and all-good? (He could be good and these things are out of his control, or powerful, and allow these things to happen just to mess with us.) You know, or God does not exist and these things just happen.

On the topic of loosing things, St Bernadette lost her much valued Rosary Beads and was heartbroken. In time, she realized it was the prayer that was important and not the beads, and took to giving sets of Rosary Beads away as a reminder that material things are not that important.

However, sometimes they are. I had my purse stolen and my mum’s engagement, wedding and eternity ring where in it. I cried buckets for days and it still upsets me. Being Irish, I don’t see anything wrong with a little superstition. There is no foundation other than superstition for saying this, but I like to think people who steal things like that have no luck. I wouldn’t buy or wear rings I knew were stolen from someone else, particularly if they had belonged to their dead mother. Morality aside, I think it would attract bad luck. Maybe the person who stole them became more God-like as a consequence of some kind of bad karma. Of course it’s also possible they didn’t.