This is not the place for intelligent debate

[Contarini]

Uncharitable?

I find this to be most liberal christian forum around.

That’s exaggerated (you could try “theologyweb,” which is at least as “liberal” as this board), but you’re right that it’s pretty good. I doubt that Steadfast has much experience with these kinds of boards, and that’s probably a good thing. They’re generally a waste of time. Arguably even this one is, but it’s big and varied enough that some case can be made for it. . . .

I suspect that Steadfast is comparing this board to real life rather than to other boards. Remember that mythical concept? Real life, where you can interact with other people as human beings instead of words on a screen. . . .

Of course, the other side of it is that for many of you the Protestants you meet in real life have a very nasty attitude to Catholicism, so this board may actually be the only place where you meet ecumenical Protestants. That’s one of the excuses I make to myself for my continued participation on this forum.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Well then he’s wrong.

How is he wrong? Are you denying that the Catholics here tend to be suspicious of and hostile toward non-Catholics, or are you denying that this is an unhealthy attitude?

Edwin

 

[Saint_Michael]

That’s not the “ghetto” Steadfast is talking about. Surely you know that?

He’s talking about your “fortress mentality” with regards to other Christians, not the practice of your faith (which is ours as well, whether you recognize it or not).

Edwin

That may be what he was talking about, but I do disagree with his assessment of Protestants not hating Catholics, I think historically and from my own experiences that is completly false. Not all, but the majority IMO of Protestants detest the Catholic Church.

 

[ComradeAndrei]

When people judge the Church because of some internet forum, I really have to wonder. You could be talking to anybody.

However, it does prove a good lesson about the human aspect of the Church. If someone is looking for the Catholic Church in which everyone is perfect, and charitable, and nice and welcoming and patient and informed etc. ad naseaum-they are not going to find it. There is an impossibly high standard when you are dealing with fallen human beings.

The Catholic recognizes this because he knows the Church is a family. Not all of my family are perfect either, but I’m not going to jump ship because they aren’t perfect nor am I going to stay away from them because they were curt with me.

 

[Contarini]

That may be what he was talking about, but I do disagree with his assessment of Protestants not hating Catholics, I think historically and from my own experiences that is completly false. Not all, but the majority IMO of Protestants detest the Catholic Church.

Of course historically Protestants detested Catholicism (and vice versa), but he’s not talking historically, he’s talking today. I don’t know where you live, but if you live in the South or some other heavily fundamentalist area I can see why you would get that impression. I was one of those Catholicism-detesting Protestants once, so it’s not like I don’t know they exist!

But a growing number of Protestants are either neutral or friendly toward Catholicism. What we ecumenical Protestants find frustrating is that many of the Catholics here seem to resist that idea rather than welcoming it. It’s as if they need anti-Catholic Protestants in order to maintain their own identity. That’s the attitude Steadfast is criticizing.

Edwin

 

[rr1213]

That may be what he was talking about, but I do disagree with his assessment of Protestants not hating Catholics, I think historically and from my own experiences that is completly false. Not all, but the majority IMO of Protestants detest the Catholic Church.

Life must be different in Brooklyn. Since the time I’ve been old enough to recognize prejudice, I’ve lived in Pennsylvania, Maryland and Virginia and have not seen hatred or prejudice against Catholics. I’m not Catholic, so maybe I’ve missed it, but I tend to be sensitive to such things.

 

[Saint_Michael]

Of course historically Protestants detested Catholicism (and vice versa), but he’s not talking historically, he’s talking today. I don’t know where you live, but if you live in the South or some other heavily fundamentalist area I can see why you would get that impression. I was one of those Catholicism-detesting Protestants once, so it’s not like I don’t know they exist!

But a growing number of Protestants are either neutral or friendly toward Catholicism. What we ecumenical Protestants find frustrating is that many of the Catholics here seem to resist that idea rather than welcoming it. It’s as if they need anti-Catholic Protestants in order to maintain their own identity. That’s the attitude Steadfast is criticizing.

Edwin

It may be friendly but it’s typically the “oh those poor Romanists, danmed for sure, I’ll pray they are released from the bondage of Rome”. I don’t know any Protestants that after getting to know them didn’t admit they thought Catholics were pagans and essentially thought very little of the Catholic Church, and that’s being gracious.

 

[Saint_Michael]

Life must be different in Brooklyn. Since the time I’ve been old enough to recognize prejudice, I’ve lived in Pennsylvania, Maryland and Virginia and have not seen hatred or prejudice against Catholics. I’m not Catholic, so maybe I’ve missed it, but I tend to be sensitive to such things.

My brothers family is Southern Baptist’s from Virginia, they refused to attend their daughters wedding or their grandsons Baptism, anyway it exists, on the radios, in books, and on any non-Catholic Christian site out there anti-Catholicism is out there. SInce you aren’t Catholic it would be natural for you to deny that there is any anti-Catholicism, it’s compeltely naive to think so, but I can understand it I guess.

 

[estesbob]

How is he wrong? Are you denying that the Catholics here tend to be suspicious of and hostile toward non-Catholics, or are you denying that this is an unhealthy attitude?

Edwin

Yes and No

 

[rr1213]

My brothers family is Southern Baptist’s from Virginia, they refused to attend their daughters wedding or their grandsons Baptism, anyway it exists, on the radios, in books, and on any non-Catholic Christian site out there anti-Catholicism is out there. SInce you aren’t Catholic it would be natural for you to deny that there is any anti-Catholicism, it’s compeltely naive to think so, but I can understand it I guess.

I don’t doubt that it exists or has existed in the past. My grandfather was ostracized by his protestant family when he married my grandmother, who was Catholic. But that was also a long time ago. Such bias is nowhere as acceptable today as it was in the past. I think many of the Catholics on this site have a chip on their shoulder, believing that we live in the same day and age as when people would hang signs on storefronts saying “No Dogs or Irish Allowed.” We don’t live in those times. People are still imperfect, but for the most part Protestants and Catholics live together in the same neighborhoods, go to the same schools, play on the same soccer teams and get along just fine.

 

[Contarini]

Saint Michael,

As I said, it differs by region. Can’t you accept the idea that the South may be different from other regions in this regard? I grew up in the South (East Tennessee) and I know exactly what you are talking about. This attitude is certainly present in other regions, but not to such an overwhelming degree. Why are you judging Brooklyn by Virginia? They’re two different worlds, I assure you.

The “friendly” attitude I’m describing is toward Catholicism, not just individual Catholics. Look at the popularity of writers like Kathleen Norris–a Presbyterian who raves about the glories of Benedictine monasticism. Henri Nouwen (a Catholic priest) is extremely popular among Protestant clergy. My wife comes from a family of Methodist clergy who are huge fans of Thomas Merton–one of her family’s close friends corresponded with him for years. Many evangelicals are coming to see Catholics as allies because of shared moral values, and this is leading them to recognize that we share other basic beliefs as well.

If you pay close attention even to the anti-Catholics (not pleasant I know), you’ll hear desperation in their tone. They know that their views are in decline among Protestants–that’s why they are so shrill. Jack Chick, for instance, thinks most Protestants are apostate, in part because they aren’t sufficiently anti-Catholic (admittedly, it’s hard to be anti-Catholic enough to please Chick–you’d have to work at it 24/7!).

I teach at an evangelical college in Indiana. Is there some anti-Catholicism? Yes, but I’ve been pleasantly surprised on the whole. I overheard a conversation in which one of the emeritus professors–an old stalwart who is a staunch defender of evangelical orthodoxy within the small denomination that runs the college–was talking about how much he respected Catholicism, and how though he disagreed with it on a number of points he regarded Catholics as fellow-Christians who shared many of the most important beliefs with evangelicals. That’s the view that is gaining ground. Anti-Catholicism is receding among evangelicals. I know it may not look like it on the ground in many places. But with all due respect, I see the big picture in evangelicalism better than you are likely to.

Mark Noll, one of the most respected evangelical intellectuals, co-wrote a book recently called *Is the Reformation Over? *He concludes (I’ve only read the article version) that it isn’t–that Protestantism has reason to continue to exist. But that’s the question folks like him are asking, not whether Catholics are Christians (it’s assumed that they are). I’m not the freak I appear (well, maybe I am but not in this respect). Lots of young evangelical intellectuals are fascinated with Catholicism. And, not meaning to be arrogant, but we are the people who are going to be setting the tone for the next generation (speaking of moderate evangelicalism as opposed to fundamentalism). Wheaton College, perhaps the finest evangelical liberal arts college out there (and the place where Noll taught until recently), has been churning out graduates for years who admire the Middle Ages and are drawn to Anglicanism because of its tradition and liturgy (some of them become Catholic or Orthodox, but there’s a much larger group who become sacramental, high-church, ecumenical Protestants).

Is this going to affect what Southern Baptists in Virginia think? maybe not. But even the SBC can surprise you. I had a lengthy conversation with the archivist of their seminary in North Carolina (Southeastern) last year, in which I made the case that Pope Benedict’s election was something evangelicals should welcome and urged him to read some of the Pope’s writings. He was open to what I had to say.

Edwin

 

[Angel_Bradford]

I don’t doubt that it exists or has existed in the past. My grandfather was ostracized by his protestant family when he married my grandmother, who was Catholic. But that was also a long time ago. Such bias is nowhere as acceptable today as it was in the past. I think many of the Catholics on this site have a chip on their shoulder, believing that we live in the same day and age as when people would hang signs on storefronts saying “No Dogs or Irish Allowed.” We don’t live in those times. People are still imperfect, but for the most part Protestants and Catholics live together in the same neighborhoods, go to the same schools, play on the same soccer teams and get along just fine.

I wish I could agree with you; however, I live in South Georgia and, on an almost weekly basis, I encounter an antiCatholic remark from people who profess to be Christians and it appears to be getting worse. There is a Baptist preacher here in my town, that just last year, announced from his pulpit that Cathiolics were not Christians. My mother works in a day care at a large Baptist church. For years, no one knew she was Catholic; you wouldn’t believe the comments they have made. I have an hard time understanding their brand of Christianity. But I guess going to church doesn’t make you a Christian any more than standing in your garage makes you a car.

That being said, we also need to demostrate a Christian attitude to our Protestant brothers and sisters.

 

[inJESUS]

well we middle easteners learn a lot from the “West”…but you, the “West” must learn from us regarding unity in here nobody asks if yu are Catholic or Orthodox ecc…we are all Christians…being a minority teaches unity

 

[MariaG]

That’s exaggerated (you could try “theologyweb,” which is at least as “liberal” as this board), but you’re right that it’s pretty good. I doubt that Steadfast has much experience with these kinds of boards, and that’s probably a good thing. They’re generally a waste of time. Arguably even this one is, but it’s big and varied enough that some case can be made for it. . . .

I suspect that Steadfast is comparing this board to real life rather than to other boards. Remember that mythical concept? Real life, where you can interact with other people as human beings instead of words on a screen. . . .

Of course, the other side of it is that for many of you the Protestants you meet in real life have a very nasty attitude to Catholicism, so this board may actually be the only place where you meet ecumenical Protestants. That’s one of the excuses I make to myself for my continued participation on this forum.

Edwin

I would say it is a good reason and not just an excuse .

Honestly, it is one of the few places that I do interact with non-judgemental instead of the Catholic church is the whore of babylon Protestants.

Granted, most of my interactions are with non-sacramental Protestants, but Edwin, your defense of Catholicism as well as the defense from a few other protestants in this forum are like a healing balm to my heart.

Please, never leave.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[inJESUS]

i noticed one thing. Any argument between Catholics/Protestants is derailed .

why don’t we pick up the arguments, and let knowlegeable and PATIENT members discuss? i personally don’t know much about Protestantism, and i still don’t despite reading in this forum…let’s start something and finish it. We 'll have to agree to disagree, but at least give ignorant people like me the chance to read Protestant arguments and Catholic arguments with references from the Bible and Church Fathers.

 

[a_priori]

“The thing I hate about an argument is that it always interrupts a discussion.” --G. K. Chesterton

Who gets to decide what is “intelligent”?

 

[Saint_Michael]

I don’t doubt that it exists or has existed in the past. My grandfather was ostracized by his protestant family when he married my grandmother, who was Catholic. But that was also a long time ago. Such bias is nowhere as acceptable today as it was in the past. I think many of the Catholics on this site have a chip on their shoulder, believing that we live in the same day and age as when people would hang signs on storefronts saying “No Dogs or Irish Allowed.” We don’t live in those times. People are still imperfect, but for the most part Protestants and Catholics live together in the same neighborhoods, go to the same schools, play on the same soccer teams and get along just fine.

My brothers wife’s family are Southern Baptists from Virginia, they don’t go to Church ever, she’s a flipping atheist, they simply hate Catholics, my wifes family is Lutheran who never had a good thing to say about Catholics. The fact remains every Protestant I have ever met has hated the Catholic Church, not to say they hated Catholics but they hated the Church. Any “friendliness” was like I said, the attitude of “those poor misguided papists, they’re not saved, they’ll burn the whole lot of em, hopefully they let loose of the bondage of Rome”, and that’s the freindly ones. I guess I do have a chip on my shoulder being and Irish Catholic, and hearing a Protestant whine on these boards how horrible we are fires me up a bit. Go over to CARM and see how Catholics are treated then insult CAF. I guarantee you will not be able to with a straight face.

And why do MOD’s allow someone to just trash Catholics on there way out the door, especially non-Catholics. It seems kind of pointless to me.

 

[jonfan]

That I had hoped it could be.

What I see more than anything else is ridicule, hatred and a real lack of charity toward ones neighbors.

Unfortunately, I’ve allowed myself to be drawn into this and have responded in kind.

I apologize for that.

I see unreasoned responses, regurgitation of canned answers (which is what CA really stands for, it would seem), and every idiot with a keyboard clamoring for his or her chance to ignore everything and cough up the same old ****.

People here with a brain and a clue are few and far between, and people with a clue, a brain and the ability to process information reliably as well as articulate a response are almost nonexistent.

As for me, I’m gonna get going.

I have a strong affection for the Roman Catholic Church at it’s best and often consider reverting, but, when I do consider this, all I have to do is wander in here and spend some time among the legions of faithful borg and I quickly return to a place where I am thanking God for liberating me from her.

In this regard, you are performing a valuable service at least to me.

I’ve had my fill for a while, the likelihood of me reverting now is nil again for a while. If I feel the urge to do so again, I may be back.

But, before I go, let me encourage you to break out of your ghetto. You’re imprisoned in a neighborhood you’ve built for yourself. Very few Protestants actually hate you, and you’re doing serious damage to your witness when you behave the way you do and when you high five and laugh at uncharitable jokes made at the expense of others…

It’s not good, it’s not healthy and it’s unchristian.

Sayonara.

It’s a shame to see you go Steadfast. I have enjoyed our discussions. I am sorry you have had a bad experience with some folk on this board. However it is a board where people from all religions come with their own theologies and thus people do debate albiet not always like gentlemen or ladies. I personally don’t see it as anger but rather somebody explaining they believe the way they do. I am not here to tear down Lutherans, Protestants, Born Agains, Jewish people, Buddist, etc… I am here however to try to explain to the best of my abilities the Catholic faith. A lot of people do not like the answers if it does not agree with the way they see things. I really can not apologise for that. However sometimes a “canned answer” **can **contain the truth. I hoope you come back.

God bless,
Jon

 

[Contarini]

My brothers wife’s family are Southern Baptists from Virginia, they don’t go to Church ever, she’s a flipping atheist, they simply hate Catholics, my wifes family is Lutheran who never had a good thing to say about Catholics. The fact remains every Protestant I have ever met has hated the Catholic Church, not to say they hated Catholics but they hated the Church. Any “friendliness” was like I said, the attitude of “those poor misguided papists, they’re not saved, they’ll burn the whole lot of em, hopefully they let loose of the bondage of Rome”, and that’s the freindly ones. I guess I do have a chip on my shoulder being and Irish Catholic, and hearing a Protestant whine on these boards how horrible we are fires me up a bit. Go over to CARM and see how Catholics are treated then insult CAF. I guarantee you will not be able to with a straight face.

And why do MOD’s allow someone to just trash Catholics on there way out the door, especially non-Catholics. It seems kind of pointless to me.

Can you seriously defend judging all Protestants on the basis of your own experience? Don’t you understand that many Protestants dismiss Catholicism for similar reasons? This leads to an endless cycle of recrimination. We hate you because you hate us because we hate you because you hate us. . . .

And why should CAF be judged in comparison to CARM? Why shouldn’t it rather be judged by what it could be? CARM has no hope of ever being a decent place to discuss anything. It’s a poisonous atmosphere. This board has a lot of good things going on.

It’s a good advertisement for Catholicism that this board is so much more open and courteous than most discussion boards. But that doesn’t mean that people’s attitudes couldn’t be improved. I know mine could. I get so frustrated by what I think are smug arguments that I lose my temper and go all haughty. And that doesn’t help anything

Edwin

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

“The thing I hate about an argument is that it always interrupts a discussion.” --G. K. Chesterton

Who gets to decide what is “intelligent”?

No one - we work that out in practice, by acting as rational human beings; which includes being able to listen to POVs with which we might not agree, but don’t discount merely for that reason.​

No one dictates or defines rationality “from on high”, as it were - no such thing is necessary, because most people are capable of acting as rational beings without needing to have a definition of it prior to acting. If we couldn’t act unless each thing we do were defined first, we would never have come down from the trees or invented fire.

Besides, questions based on authority to do X or Y, imply questions about where that authority is from; & before we know where we are, we are involved in an endless regression. It’s quite possible to say what is intelligent without defining it, because it is demonstrated in action: it can be pointed out. All we need is some idea, however imprecise, of what counts as intelligent; specifically, intelligent for this or that specific purpose; in this instance, for a discussion about intelligent debate. ##